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  1. #41
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    Class 2 looks like trouble.

    These are new definitions.
    Be Prepared

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by HooKooDooKu View Post
    Your opening post used the phrase "E-Bikes are able to use any trail open to bicycles and/or horses". This phrase, along with your opening statement, made it sound like a whole lot of back country trials that used to be open only to hikers and horse riders would now also be open to E-Bikes.

    That interpretation of this order that is simply not true, and that's the ONLY part of this discussion I'm trying to shut down.

    "Lack of public comment opportunity"? I didn't research the history of the order, so I currently have no input on that aspect of the subject. So please do continue to discuss the history of this order and anything else that might be right or wrong about it.
    I stand corrected, that was how the original article I read stated the issue and part of the reason the thread was a question. Looking back, the horse reference may have been for multi-use trails. My comments regarding these machines stand however. Bikes illegally appear on hiking trails despite assurances from the mechanical community they do not, which if logic prevails, we will see these machines appear on them as well over time, camel's noses being what they are. That this was done in the dark of night without public comment is not typically how the NPS conducts its business and perhaps signals a change to a more secretive process.

  3. #43

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    Just like running or walking, cycling speed is limited by the landscape. There’s no way a E cyclist can maintain a fast, continuous speed on anything but a flat, well-graded trail. And even then, the cyclist is limited by battery life. Can you imagine an e cyclist going 20mph on the trails we hike? No, cuz it’s not possible.

    E bikes are meant to provide short bursts of assistance. Those people who choose to use an e bike on a trail will already have a baseline level of physical fitness.

    I believe the real reason people oppose this is because they don’t want more people outdoors, ruining “their experience”. It’s about entitlement, not sharing.

    Would y’all really oppose a veteran with an amputation from using an e bike on an established MTB trail?

  4. #44

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    ...and another point,

    The studies I read during the MTB’s-on-trails-debate showed that hikers did more damage to trails than bikes. As a member of the cycling community, I know firsthand that cyclists hold each other accountable for their behavior and take their trail stewardship very seriously. Yesterday, I saw an MTB’er call out another for littering and (at least in this area) won’t bike in wet conditions so that the trails aren't damaged. How many hikers do that? Just look at the erosion on the AT for that answer.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traffic Jam View Post
    The studies I read during the MTB’s-on-trails-debate showed that hikers did more damage to trails than bikes.
    My local trail (part of the Bay Circuit Trail that circles Boston) was a narrow single track for years and years. With the popularity of mountain bikes over the past 20 years, most of it is now literally as wide as a mountain road.

    Makes is is easier to avoid ticks, but completely different character.

    Cannot hike it now because we are at the highest risk level for EEE. More aerial spraying tonight. God help us if that scourge ever reaches the AT. Bigger threats out there than e-bikes.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    My local trail (part of the Bay Circuit Trail that circles Boston) was a narrow single track for years and years. With the popularity of mountain bikes over the past 20 years, most of it is now literally as wide as a mountain road.

    Makes is is easier to avoid ticks, but completely different character.

    Cannot hike it now because we are at the highest risk level for EEE. More aerial spraying tonight. God help us if that scourge ever reaches the AT. Bigger threats out there than e-bikes.
    Unfortunately, our cycling-unfriendly country has made it extremely hazardous to cycle on the roads so most of my friends have turned to MTB’ing. I’m still cycling on the road but expect to get hit any day. Sad but true. I’d love an E bike to extend my work commute and add in grocery shopping and errands.

  7. #47

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    As some who hikes and has built his own ebikes I need to add a few things.
    Ebike laws vary from state to state. Pedal assist (you have to pedal to make it go but the motor helps out) is not always a requirement. Hand operate throttles are very common but not always allowed. Power level is controlled at a federal level but does not apply to home builts. Most ebikes allow the option of PAS (Pedal Assist) and throttle control.
    IMHO this can all be laid at the feet of the handicap accessibility laws. Once you permit powered wheelchairs in a place for those who need them how can you legitimately keep out average Joes who want one too? It is a slippery slope that only those horribly cruel selfish jerks foresaw and now we get to enjoy the consequences.
    Personally I would like to go back to the way it was, some trails for foot travel, some for bicycles, some for horses, some for dirt bikes/ATV's, some for 4x4's/fullsize vehicles but that ain't happening. Anyway, for more detailed info than you could ever want to know about ebikes I would suggest endlessphere.com.
    For those who hate the idea of bicycles/ebikes on the trails all I can say is get used to it. Traditionalist all over are currently being dumped on by the new world order we are experiencing...
    ./~Hi ho, hi ho, it's up the trail I go ./~

  8. #48
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    Electric bikes do make you feel like Superman.

    I got passed on on my regular bike by an electric unicycle last week (Minuteman Bikeway). I would have had to kill myself to keep up. Too cool. Bikeway ends at a subway station and it would have been real easy to carry on.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    Electric bikes do make you feel like Superman.

    I got passed on on my regular bike by an electric unicycle last week (Minuteman Bikeway). I would have had to kill myself to keep up. Too cool. Bikeway ends at a subway station and it would have been real easy to carry on.
    Seriously wished I had one last week when I was pushing my bike up a super steep hill.

  10. #50

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    Seriously wished the NPS had allowed comment before the rule change, which include Class II E-bikes that are powered without pedaling and have a throttle. Though apparently this is not much of an issue with people, for me it signals a move to secretive rule making, which one can only imagine where that can lead. That, my friends, is the issue, but given the collective shrug its not worth discussion. Perhaps when NPS rules are changed in secrecy for timbering and oil exploration it may spark some interest in this process.

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler View Post
    Seriously wished the NPS had allowed comment before the rule change, which include Class II E-bikes that are powered without pedaling and have a throttle. Though apparently this is not much of an issue with people, for me it signals a move to secretive rule making, which one can only imagine where that can lead. That, my friends, is the issue, but given the collective shrug its not worth discussion. Perhaps when NPS rules are changed in secrecy for timbering and oil exploration it may spark some interest in this process.
    So basically, people are incensed about E bikes on trails because they weren’t asked first? I can understand that but don’t oppose the change, oppose the fundamental issue which is a broken political system...but political dialogue isn’t allowed on WB.

    As far as all classes of e bikes being allowed on trails...

    Pizzi said Class 1 e-bikes are most appropriate on trails where mountain bikes are allowed. He said Class 2 and 3 e-bikes are better suited for a park's paved trails and bike lanes but each jurisdiction will establish its own rules."We are focused on Class 1," Pizzi said. "We don't want everyone to think this is unfettered access to federal lands all over the country for all types of e-bikes. Every jurisdiction will do what is appropriate and effective in their environment.”
    Last edited by Traffic Jam; 09-14-2019 at 09:04.

  12. #52
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    Keep in mind that while Class II E-bikes do allow throttles, they still have limitations on speed... so it's not as if you could take a motorcycle, call it an E-bike and ride motor cycles on mountain bike trails.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by HooKooDooKu View Post
    Keep in mind that while Class II E-bikes do allow throttles, they still have limitations on speed... so it's not as if you could take a motorcycle, call it an E-bike and ride motor cycles on mountain bike trails.
    I can see them being very, very popular on the Carriage Roads at Acadia National Park.


    Having waves of fellow tourists passing at 28 MPH would be rather disconcerting.

    Actually I think that would really suck.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler View Post
    Seriously wished the NPS had allowed comment before the rule change, which include Class II E-bikes that are powered without pedaling and have a throttle. Though apparently this is not much of an issue with people, for me it signals a move to secretive rule making, which one can only imagine where that can lead. That, my friends, is the issue, but given the collective shrug its not worth discussion. Perhaps when NPS rules are changed in secrecy for timbering and oil exploration it may spark some interest in this process.
    This is the major issue here, I agree. This is the slippery slope. We will eventually have no say except to complain "ex post facto".
    humor is the gadfly on the corpse of tragedy

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    ...
    Having waves of fellow tourists passing at 28 MPH would be rather disconcerting.
    ...
    That's a Class 3 E-bike. Those do not have a throttle but can only be pedal assist.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by HooKooDooKu View Post
    That's a Class 3 E-bike. Those do not have a throttle but can only be pedal assist.
    Exactly.

    https://www.doi.gov/sites/doi.gov/fi...kes_-508_0.pdf

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler View Post
    This may be old news, but I just caught this today, a current administration order will allow electric bikes (E-Bikes) onto trails in National Parks, Forests, and BLM properties. Wilderness areas are a little hazy under this order, but I suspect the worst from this.

    These machines are capable of speeds exceeding 25mph, which given the ease of operation won't take long to wander off of "appropriate trails" and bike routes onto foot paths. The ATC, PCT, and other conservation organizations are raising concerns pointing out the administration is changing the nature of National Parks and other areas without any study or public comment.

    According to the order, E-Bikes are able to use any trail open to bicycles and/or horses. I cannot imagine what mayhem a fast moving powered vehicle will produce with horses, since the presence of a slow moving hiker is enough to make many of them skittish. While this may sound agreeable on first glance, it opens up the high probability these machines will likely extend to use on foot trails. There has been a growing effort in the continued push by the mountain biking community to allow mountain bikes on all trails, the entire PCT for example, who will use ticketing and enforcement measures of these things as a legal platform to challenge exclusionary rules. It's also seen by many as the fuel powered vehicle camels nose getting under the tent.

    Given the history of this issue, I am hoping for a positive outcome for the National Parks and the hiking community overall.
    i dont see anything wrong with your concerns. The biking community has for yrs lobbied to gain greater access to trails built by other communities. This creates problems on some trails such as narrowed single track of flatter nature where the dramatically different rates of speed can definitely cause issue with multi use. Hopefully, the NPS does not kowtow to the biking community. This is not simply a hiker entitlement issue as has been suggested. If what you're saying is correct - late night passage limiting public comment- it does not bode well for transparency.

  18. #58

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    I could be wrong but I don’t think the national Park is thinking about allowing bikes on hiking trails. Just allowing them to coexist in a national park trail system. For example on Acadia Carriage roads But not on acadia hiking trails. Basically on trails where bikes are currently allowed they want to make sure that also e-bikes are also allowed


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  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traffic Jam View Post
    So basically, people are incensed about E bikes on trails because they weren’t asked first? I can understand that but don’t oppose the change, oppose the fundamental issue which is a broken political system...but political dialogue isn’t allowed on WB.

    As far as all classes of e bikes being allowed on trails...

    Pizzi said Class 1 e-bikes are most appropriate on trails where mountain bikes are allowed. He said Class 2 and 3 e-bikes are better suited for a park's paved trails and bike lanes but each jurisdiction will establish its own rules."We are focused on Class 1," Pizzi said. "We don't want everyone to think this is unfettered access to federal lands all over the country for all types of e-bikes. Every jurisdiction will do what is appropriate and effective in their environment.”
    Basically the point was missed, its not the bikes, its the issue of not seeking public comment for rule changes as the NPS typically does. Class II bikes are included in the rule change, but are said not to be allowed in NPs, how that will be enforced is anyones guess due to the secrecy of the rule change and its component pieces.

    It's not about the bikes, its about secret changes to Federal rules. Is this a one time thing, or is this a test of public attention that leads to other rule changes behind closed doors. Not sure why few others are concerned about this and the potential it represents when rule changes go outside of the normal processes, however, indifference may have a price at some point.

  20. #60
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    By my reading of the actual Order all three classes of e-bikes are considered equivalent, and all three classes will be allowed on exiting bike trails.

    Not sure why/how some could read the actual order differently. Am I missing something?


    Excerpt from Order her:


    Sec. 4 Policy. Consistent with governing laws and regulations:

    a) For the purpose ofthis Order, "e-bikes" shall mean "low-speed electric bicycle" asdefined by 15 U.S.C. § 2085 and falling within one ofthe following classifications:

    i) "Class 1 electric bicycle" shall mean an electric bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour;

    ii) "Class 2 electric bicycle" shall mean an electric bicycle equipped with a motor that may be used exclusively to propel the bicycle, and that is not capable of providing assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour; and

    iii) "Class 3 electric bicycle" shall mean an electric bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of28 miles per hour.

    b) E-bikes shall be allowed where other types ofbicycles are allowed; and

    c) E-bikes shall not be allowed where other types of bicycles are prohibited.



    Full text of Order here:


    https://www.doi.gov/sites/doi.gov/fi...kes_-508_0.pdf

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