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  1. #21
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    Here is exactly what the DT rep said: “We do not offer treated socks because chemicals such as Permethrin and deet [sic] are known to damage the wool fibers and compromise the structural integrity of the sock.”

    This was a member of DTs customer support team, fyi.
    "It goes to show you never can tell." - Charles Edward Anderson Berry

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    I asked DT Customer Service about this and was told that they think the chemically treated wool degrades faster than untreated.

    First I've heard of this. Hmm?

    I've heard stated repeatedly permethrin will not damage fabrics or fibers.
    Ive got 710+ miles on my treated socks with no apparent wear.

    However, treated socks would be more expensive to reiki and are more likely to be bought by high mileage hikers.

  3. #23
    Leonidas
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    The pair I treated before my last hike feel "crunchier" than my otherwise identical pair of Darn Tough socks. Maybe a coincidence?
    AT: 471 mi

    Pinhoti Trail: 254 mi

    @leonidasonthetrail

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Grouse View Post
    Here is exactly what the DT rep said: “We do not offer treated socks because chemicals such as Permethrin and deet [sic] are known to damage the wool fibers and compromise the structural integrity of the sock.”
    Every Lyme disease patient will proudly tell you how they preserved the structural integrity of the fibers in their Darn Tough socks by not treating them against ticks.

  5. #25
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    Just because a rep on the phone gives an answer does not mean that's an official answer. I expect logistically Darn Tuff does not want to introduce a pesticide into their production plant and distribution network if they do not have to. During the factory open house/fall sale, the public walks right through the factory. I did not see any industrial washing and drying equipment that would be required to treat socks. It looked to me like the socks go directly from balls of fiber in the knitting room through a line of very high tech high speed machines then through minor packaging equipment and into a cardboard box. They are making many private label products some which contain strictly natural fibers which no doubt might be sold to customers that would object to permethrin being on the product or any residues. Since all the production is in one factory it would be difficult to segregate the production lines and cross contamination would occur. This is fundamentally a nightmare to handle in a production environment so I expect they have made the wise choice not to participate in this niche market.

    One of the reasons Cabot exists is they are long term supplier to the US military due to "buy America" legislation, the Darn Tuff line is reportedly a civilian offshoot of lesson learned from the military socks. If the US military wanted permethrin treatment I have no doubt they would figure out a way to add it but to date the US seems to believe in adding it after the fact in the field. This is in keeping with general good practice with pesticides, rather than treat everything in case it might be needed, its far better to treat specific batches where the benefits outweigh any risks.

  6. #26
    Registered User colorado_rob's Avatar
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    Is anyone seriously considering NOT treating their DT socks with permethrin because of some vague reference to maybe some slight degradation to sock life? Sure hope not, those New England ticks can be voracious.

    AND, even if permethrin somehow does slightly degrade sock life, who cares if you only get 2000 miles out of a pair vs. 2500, especially when you get a free replacement pair later anyway?

    I can honestly say I've never found a tick embedded on my body, and I've hiked the entire AT, and about half of it again, but of course, my socks, underwear, pant legs, hat and shirt collars are always treated with permethrin.

  7. #27
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    Thx for reducing my need for key slapping.

  8. #28
    Registered User lonehiker's Avatar
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    Ever since I read about permethrin I've treated the upper portion of my DT socks. Perhaps it does shorten the life expectancy as I'm only getting ~1,000 miles out of each pair... FWIW, if I get that type of mileage out of a pair I do not have them honor their guarantee. I just buy a new pair.
    Lonehiker

  9. #29
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    I just treat my clothes and gear myself. So far, it seems to be working well.

  10. #30

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    Someone from hammock forums steered me toward JT Eatons permethrin because it is actually labeled for clothing.Not saying I can tell any difference from Martin's 10% which I have used in the past but it does appear appropriate to me to go with something properly labeled when it is available.I like the fact that I do not have to mix anything as JT Eatons is ready made.All you have to do is shake it up.I do put mine in a spray bottle and wet the fabric well in my garage away from children and pets and let it completely dry.I treat all my clothes except for the boxer shorts.I might start treating the waistband though.

    Eatons is also labeled to treat your luggage for bed bugs which I have not yet done but I found that to be interesting when I read the label.Keep it away from children,cats,and dogs under 12 weeks of age.It is highly toxic to bees and aquatic creatures so beware of runoff.

    No,I'm not worried about sock life or guarantees either.
    Last edited by Five Tango; 08-12-2019 at 19:21. Reason: misspelled word

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Midwest Mike View Post
    For me, as with most of you, permethrin is a no-brainer. But don't assume it is risk-free. There was a study showing that people who use permethrin occupationally had a higher risk of Parkinson's. That's not a reason not to use it -- obviously, the exposure for us is much lower -- but for me it is a good reason to have my clothing treated. Treating it means still lower exposure as opposed to spraying.
    A friend of mine's hubby is a wildlife officer. Occupationally, he's in the woods regularly (daily?) catching poachers and whatever else they do. His Lyme disease went un-diagnosed long enough that its effects are in his brain and seem permanent.

    I know Parkinson's is no joke, but even if this study came from a peer reviewed (medically reliable) source, I bet my friend's family would accept the "higher risk" of Parkinson's over the results of long term Lyme.

    I'll go with the Permethrin treatment.

    I don't know if I'll ever be able to do a thru hike, but for me it's easy enough to treat everything prior to a section hike. Dunk, ring out excess, hang to dry. Unless it's doing it's Florida rain thing, then I throw them in the dryer until they are only damp and lay them out on the clothing rack* in the garage to dry the rest of the way. Backpack, tent mesh, sleeping bag, and sometimes boots get a spray misting.

    My darn tough socks have been treated many times. Put wool in the dryer, it shrinks. I thought my 4 year old DT's were still doing well except for the elasticity around the tops going away - until I wore a new pair I got for Christmas on my last section hike. The new pair kept my feet much happier than the original pairs I had bought. So, like shoes, even if they don't look bad, sometimes they should be replaced.

    * car under a car cover

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    it's better than getting the diseases the pests can transmit.
    That's what western M.D's said and still say about prescribing antibiotics for every sniffle, sneeze, and scratchy throat.
    Actually, they don't (even accounting for your hyperbole).

    I would agree with you if it was true, but it's not - you can check CDC guidelines.

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Time Zone View Post
    Actually, they don't (even accounting for your hyperbole).

    I would agree with you if it was true, but it's not - you can check CDC guidelines.
    Agreed, "we" absolutely do not prescribe antibiotics for every sniffle, sneeze, or scratchy throat. The MD's Dogwood is seeing must be dinosaurs that don't keep up on the literature of the pasty 20 years.

    ( I'm a Family Practice physician in a relatively Lyme-heavy region)

    Permethrin either as a pretreatment or consumer applied, is recommended as a suitable measure for Lyme disease prevention.

  14. #34

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    You took the words right out of my mouth. Lifetime warranty.
    Whether you think you can, or think you can't--you're right--Henry Ford; The Journey Is The Destination

  15. #35
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    If DT is truly concerned about Permethrin treatment degrading the sock's life to the point of endangering their lifetime warranty, they could offer a reduced warranty for their treated items. If you wanted factory treated DT socks, would you really not buy them if they offered "only" a five year (or whatever) warranty instead of lifetime?
    "It goes to show you never can tell." - Charles Edward Anderson Berry

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Time Zone View Post
    Actually, they don't (even accounting for your hyperbole).

    I would agree with you if it was true, but it's not - you can check CDC guidelines.
    Quote Originally Posted by trailmercury View Post
    Agreed, "we" absolutely do not prescribe antibiotics for every sniffle, sneeze, or scratchy throat. The MD's Dogwood is seeing must be dinosaurs that don't keep up on the literature of the pasty 20 years.

    ( I'm a Family Practice physician in a relatively Lyme-heavy region)

    Permethrin either as a pretreatment or consumer applied, is recommended as a suitable measure for Lyme disease prevention.
    So, attack me personally defending the western medical industry's long time approach to over prescribing antibiotics or other drugs indiscriminately?


    @Time Zone

    I did check the CDC. Perhaps, it is you who has not? Not Hyberbole! https://www.cdc.gov/features/antibioticuse/index.html You scathingly personally attack me yet again Time Zone with your vehemence despite my continued cordiality defending inappropriate prescribing of drugs by the western medical community as you've done in threatening PM's. Perhaps, I can remind you of your callous diatribes laced with profanity by publicly listing your PM's here? I still have them?

    @Time Zone and TrailMercury

    Then why would the CDC, Mayo Clinic, PEW Institute, US National Library of Medicine, and many others in the western medical healthcare industry, and medical and Big Pharma watch dog groups, which include Federal and state groups be so concerned about the prescribing of antibiotics and antibiotic stewardship at point of prescription within the last three yrs? There has been a downward trend in the past 6-7 yrs but that is not a dinosaur duration in the western medical community, AND considering the continued harm occurring from inappropriate prescribing... that again, your own industry acknowledges currently occurs...just as others, including law enforcement organizations has with with various prescribed drugs. Typically, altering trends in the western medical community can take a decade or more to be realized as it can be slow to adopt new procedures. What people know, even highly educated rational people such as M.D.s, doesn't equate with what an industry does as a whole.

    https://www.cdc.gov/antibiotic-use/s...ort/index.html

    https://ce.mayo.edu/sites/ce.mayo.ed...2011-29-16.pdf

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6062849/

    https://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/as...report_329.pdf
    Last edited by Dogwood; 08-13-2019 at 18:06.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    So, attack me personally defending the western medical industry's long time approach to over prescribing antibiotics or other drugs indiscriminately?


    @Time Zone

    I did check the CDC. Perhaps, it is you who has not? Not Hyberbole! https://www.cdc.gov/features/antibioticuse/index.html You scathingly personally attack me yet again Time Zone with your vehemence despite my continued cordiality defending inappropriate prescribing of drugs by the western medical community as you've done in threatening PM's. Perhaps, I can remind you of your callous diatribes laced with profanity by publicly listing your PM's here? I still have them?

    @Time Zone and TrailMercury

    Then why would the CDC, Mayo Clinic, PEW Institute, US National Library of Medicine, and many others in the western medical healthcare industry, and medical and Big Pharma watch dog groups, which include Federal and state groups be so concerned about the prescribing of antibiotics and antibiotic stewardship at point of prescription within the last three yrs? There has been a downward trend in the past 6-7 yrs but that is not a dinosaur duration in the western medical community, AND considering the continued harm occurring from inappropriate prescribing... that again, your own industry acknowledges currently occurs...just as others, including law enforcement organizations has with with various prescribed drugs. Typically, altering trends in the western medical community can take a decade or more to be realized as it can be slow to adopt new procedures. What people know, even highly educated rational people such as M.D.s, doesn't equate with what an industry does as a whole.

    https://www.cdc.gov/antibiotic-use/s...ort/index.html

    https://ce.mayo.edu/sites/ce.mayo.ed...2011-29-16.pdf

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6062849/

    https://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/as...report_329.pdf
    Ooooouuuuuccccchhhhhh!!!

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Five Tango View Post
    We live in a litigious society.Ask McDonald's.
    McDonald's had it coming. They knowingly sold coffee brewed and stored at temperatures hot enough to cause third degree burns in three to seven seconds (180-190 degrees, this was company policy), served it in containers inadequately designed to protect the consumer from inadvertent spills, and had received over 700 claims and suits prior to the "big one". They knew their coffee was too hot to be served in crappy containers for over 10 years and continued to sell it.

    The complainant in the big suit suffered burns requiring skin grafts to her inner thighs and elsewhere. She was initially awarded damages equal to two days of revenue McDonald's made selling coffee, but this amount was reduced and the final amount she received was reached via a confidential agreement between her and the restaurant.

    McDonald's has since vastly improved the cups and lids they serve their coffee in.

    Consumers have agency and responsibility, but sellers do as well. Personally, I don't buy McDonald's coffee, not because I'm afraid of burns, but because it's not that great and it's way too hot for me and takes forever to cool off enough to enjoy.

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