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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCloud View Post
    You are absolutely right. But I don't care why something didn't work, whether it be user error, distance, the attacker is on drugs or just plain immune. If being attacked, I only care that I escape! For me, I know that if I get a solid dose I am visually incapacitated for about 40 min, which is about normal. Can't even open my eyes. I've gotten a little residual as well, and was affected for about 20 min but could still see enough to walk. It's a legit option; I just don't like it personally.
    Are we talking about a dose of mace,pepper spray,bear spray,or taser?Sorry,but I was not sure which you were referencing in your post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasBob View Post
    I had an expired pepper spray that I decide to fire off to see how it worked. The spray came out as you describe and shot at least 15 feet. I was surprised at the range but also for the need to have a reasonably good aim to hit the target.
    Yea I don't think it's intended to be shot at a target 15' away! that being said it is totally legit to do so. It has been proven, sadly, that an attacker with a knife can charge and stab you from 21' away faster than you can pull out a gun and shoot the attacker dead. This is another practical exercise in many basic police academies. That is why cops pull out their guns (and not lesser weapons) when encountering a subject with an edged weapon. Ballistic vests (aka bullet proof vests) are not rated to defeat edged weapons.

    So everyone should know that if you ever encounter a threatening or unstable person w/ an edged weapon, your first priority is to create distance between yourself and that person. That may sound obvious, but is worth repeating now, as we do not yet know the specifics of how quickly things went down the night of the attack.
    Be Prepared

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Five Tango View Post
    Are we talking about a dose of mace,pepper spray,bear spray,or taser?Sorry,but I was not sure which you were referencing in your post.
    Oh sorry; pepper spray or its industry name, OC Spray. Never been tased. Would love to see someone get smoked by bear spray. That would be hysterical.

    But my point was that any tool made by man has limitations. Even a gun can jam - though at this point it's got to be really old or really dirty. Whatever tool you choose to carry, it's critical to know everything about how it works and why it might not. In the middle of a fight for your life is no time to read the fine print!
    Be Prepared

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    Multi-Use....Well at least if you carry pepper spray you can literally use it on your food.... so if you like spicy ramen sounds like your pepper spray will do the trick

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockDoc View Post
    You don't need a 14 oz gun in these hiking situations, generally. You just need something that works. As a well trained, licensed CC myself, I would favor a small .22 magnum for the AT, like the NAA 5 shot revolvers. As Sam Colt said, these make us equal. They also tend to make us all very polite.

    Or, you can wave your hands and say "don't hurt me!", and see how that works out.

    I'll disagree on the .22. I've seen too many videos of crazed/drugged attackers get shot by 9mm pistols, realize they aren't dead, and get back up and reinitiate their attack. I would not carry any caliber smaller than a .357 as I have never seen a video, or heard of someone jumping back up after being shot with larger calibers such as .357, .44 or .45. I'm not sure about .40. Wasn't Sam Colt making .44s for .45s when he said that?

    On the East Coast I carry a lightweight J Frame .357 revolver. Carrying a firearm is a big deal. I do not recommend others do so without real training and the personal confidence in their decision making abilities to do so. And by training I mean to include legal training in the laws of the jurisdiction you are in. Shoot someone and you'll be in for hours of police questioning and an inevitable lawsuit.
    Last edited by BlackCloud; 05-16-2019 at 14:18.
    Be Prepared

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by wordstew View Post
    Multi-Use....Well at least if you carry pepper spray you can literally use it on your food.... so if you like spicy ramen sounds like your pepper spray will do the trick
    It actually turns sweet after it dries. A park ranger buddy @ Yellowstone told me that every year they get several calls b/c a bear or other animal is licking their tent which they had sprayed w/ bear spray. It's not bug spray people!
    Be Prepared

  7. #87

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    I prefer 1911's but also carry .357 at times (bear country). But it's a matter of the best gun is the one you have with you. If you are up against someone with a knife, you will probably win if you have any measily mouse gun because they will run like the wind.

    You know the old saying, "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight".

  8. #88

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    Oddly, given the numerous posts of gun recommendations there little mention about CC laws in various States (especially along the AT corridor) and how to go about carrying a weapon legally. Regulations of these weapons differ substantially between States and various Federal/State/private land use regulations. Ignorance is rarely a successful defense in felony charges that involve firearms.

    I'm sure no one here would carry a gun illegally so there likely is a wealth of experience in this within the forum, so perhaps some information can be shared on how to carry a firearm legally in the AT states (or other LD trail States) when making recommendations of which gun to tote about would be in order?

  9. #89
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    Even for a LEO it's almost impossible to carry a firearm unimpeded for a thru hike of the entire AT and remain in compliance with all current state and Fed gun laws.

    All types of restrictions IE: state local zones you can't carry in or laws that require a specific type of ammo, buildings you are not allowed to enter with a firearm...

    I would be curious however to find out if there is a grey area interpretation/exception because as described the AT (or parts of it) is considered some sort of maritime territory.

  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by wordstew View Post
    Even for a LEO it's almost impossible to carry a firearm unimpeded for a thru hike of the entire AT and remain in compliance with all current state and Fed gun laws.

    All types of restrictions IE: state local zones you can't carry in or laws that require a specific type of ammo, buildings you are not allowed to enter with a firearm...

    I would be curious however to find out if there is a grey area interpretation/exception because as described the AT (or parts of it) is considered some sort of maritime territory.
    This is incorrect.

    "The Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (LEOSA) is a United States federal law, enacted in 2004, that allows two classes of persons—the "qualified law enforcement officer" and the "qualified retired or separated law enforcement officer"—to carry a concealed firearm in any jurisdiction in the United States, regardless of state or local laws, with certain exceptions."

    The exceptions (note that the first line says that there is state and local preemptions):

    Although LEOSA preempts state and local laws, there are two notable exceptions: "the laws of any State that (1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property" (such as a bars, private clubs, amusement parks, etc.), or "(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park"[1][10][11][12] Additionally, LEOSA does not override the federal Gun-Free School Zone Act (GFSZA) which prohibits carrying a firearm within 1,000 feet of elementary or secondary schools unless the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State.

    So essentially you can thru with LEOSA, but you cannot enter federal buildings like visitor centers at national parks. Baxter (which is akin to private property managed by the state) or the ATC HQ while carrying.
    Last edited by C4web88; 05-17-2019 at 11:13.

  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler View Post
    Oddly, given the numerous posts of gun recommendations there little mention about CC laws in various States (especially along the AT corridor) and how to go about carrying a weapon legally. Regulations of these weapons differ substantially between States and various Federal/State/private land use regulations. Ignorance is rarely a successful defense in felony charges that involve firearms.

    I'm sure no one here would carry a gun illegally so there likely is a wealth of experience in this within the forum, so perhaps some information can be shared on how to carry a firearm legally in the AT states (or other LD trail States) when making recommendations of which gun to tote about would be in order?
    Quick and dirty, for the average civilian, thru hiking the whole thing while carrying is legally impossible. MD, NY, and NJ are may issue states, meaning they will issue permits at their discretion, which happens to be never. MD and NJ will not issue residents, much less non-residents a carry permit. If you are a business owner or own a residence in NY, you may get a permit, but they will not issue out of state. MA does not extend reciprocity to other states, and neither does CT, you have to fulfill their specific requirements to get a permit; they do, however, issue non-resident permits. WV, ME, NH, and VT are constitutional carry states that will allow you to carry concealed without a permit as long as you meet the requirements to legally own a firearm. VA, PA, NC, TN, and GA all extend pretty generous reciprocity, but will vary depending on what state permit you hold and whether or not it is a resident or non-resident permit. Keep in mind that their are always local, state, and federal restrictions and it is your responsibilty to be aware of them. Call the state police of the state you're visting/hiking in if you're unsure. Consulting a site like nracarryguard (mentioned a couple posts ago) or, my preferred site for questions like these https://www.gunstocarry.com/ccw-reciprocity-map/ is always a good idea.

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    Just to nit-pik my previous post you will see I said "it's almost impossible"

  14. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by wordstew View Post
    Just to nit-pik my previous post you will see I said "it's almost impossible"
    True, but I'd consider it far from being close to impossible. I'm very interested in the maritime designations on parts of the trail, is this in some of the states or all? I've never heard of that or the implications....pretty cool stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by C4web88 View Post
    True, but I'd consider it far from being close to impossible. I'm very interested in the maritime designations on parts of the trail, is this in some of the states or all? I've never heard of that or the implications....pretty cool stuff.
    Here's what you're looking for

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/7

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockDoc View Post
    I prefer 1911's but also carry .357 at times (bear country). But it's a matter of the best gun is the one you have with you. If you are up against someone with a knife, you will probably win if you have any measily mouse gun because they will run like the wind.

    You know the old saying, "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight".
    100% agree.
    Be Prepared

  17. #97
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    I think this is a pretty thorough overview of each state's firearm carry laws for travelers: https://www.gunlawguide.com

    The inability of a non-law enforcement officer AT through hiker wanting to lawfully carry a firearm in the woods illustrates the utility of federal firearm possession legislation.
    Be Prepared

  18. #98

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    Please keep the discussion to options and not about debating the strengths and weaknesses of concealed carry laws. Thank you.
    "Sleepy alligator in the noonday sun
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  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alligator View Post
    Please keep the discussion to options and not about debating the strengths and weaknesses of concealed carry laws. Thank you.
    Alligator - If you think the following is not in character with this thread, feel free to remove it. I just think it's somewhat relevant to the responsibilities and consequences of the options being discussed.


    I would recommend that anyone who carries a firearm for self defense on the trail read about the Harold Fish case. This is the report of the case and exoneration https://www.law.umich.edu/special/ex...px?caseid=4266 , and this is a more detailed report on the case and trial http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15199221/n.../#.XN_1G8hKiUk

    In a nutshell, in 2004 Harold Fish, a retired school teacher was hiking in Arizona. He came across Grant Kuenzli and Kuenzli's dogs at a trailhead/parking area. According to Fish, he fired a warning shot at the ground when Kuenzli's two unrestrained dogs charged at him. Kuenzli, who had a history of some mental and behavioral issues, then ran towards Fish threatening him. Kuenzli was unarmed. Fish shot him in self-defense. The time from the dogs charging to Fish shooting Kuenzli was approximately 10 seconds total. Fish then rendered aid to Kuenzli, flagged down a car at a nearby road (no phone service), and cooperated with police. There were no direct eyewitnesses other than Fish and the dead man who had attacked him. The Sheriff's deputy investigating the incident considered the shooting justified. Th prosecutor, however, disagreed and brought murder charges against Fish. There was conflicting testimony from both sides regarding Kuenzli's past mental health history and behavior, and the trial judge excluded a lot of defense evidence regarding Kuenzli's past. Fish was convicted of 2nd degree murder, spent over three years in prison, and racked up some $700K in legal fees. The conviction was eventually overturned on appeal and he was exonerated 5 years later in 2009, when the appeals court ruled the trial judge had errored in jury instruction and in excluding evidence about Kuenzli's prior behavioral issues. Fish died in 2012, leaving his family still heavily in debt.

    I own guns and have a concealed carry permit. But as I posted on page one of this thread, carrying and securing a gun 24/7 over the course of a long hike isn't easy nor convenient. Even if you choose to carry a gun on the trail, if you and those with you can run away from an attack, do so. You only "stand your ground" when other options aren't available. Actually using a gun in self-defense leads to lots of severe consequences - legal, financial, emotional, etc. Whatever you were doing, like hiking, is now over for the foreseeable future. Without any delay, you have a legal duty to report the incident to police and emergency medical services, and render first aid to the person you shot if safe to do so. Use of deadly force standards vary in different states. Police will obviously question you. DO NOT make statements regarding your mental state or perception of the attack nor your level/degree of fear at the time. The ONLY safe thing you can say to police after an incident where you shot someone is, "I was/we were attacked. I shot to stop the attack. I would like to speak to my attorney before further questioning." And the ONLY person you can safely talk to about the incident is your attorney.

    And at least some of this holds true for any physical defensive actions you take against an attacker that injures or kills them, even if you fought him/her off with trekking poles, pepper spray, a knife, a stick, or even if you were unarmed. While I believe police and the court system are generally on the side of people protecting themselves, sometimes what we say without being careful can result in adverse legal (and financial) consequences.

  20. #100

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    I said this in another thread but I will add to is some here. Avoiding the situation is always the best. Being mentally prepared is the next step. No weapon will be effective if you don't know how to use it and have at least rehearsed in you mind on what you will do.

    I agree with 4eyebuzzard the responsibility of securing a gun 24/7 makes it unrealistic for the trail and the legal issues with town visits make it very hard to get things done. A lot of stores will not let you carry it in.

    A heavier aluminum trekking pole that is collapsed down would make an effective asp. This would require some training but is something we already carry and has no legal issue when in towns. It is also the thing you have closest in hand.

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