“Armed and Dangerous AT hiker”

[Sasquatch!]

But, amazingly, only acting out when away from authorities, where and when he would likely not stir up immediate trouble for himself.
A lot of mentally ill people behave and "color between the lines" in all sorts of different settings to keep from raising alarms. Face it, it's somewhat of a necessity to make others think you're okay or getting better, even if you're not. But, unlike Jordan, they are rarely violent towards others and if anything tend to be more self-destructive. So of course Jordan likely didn't act out when around authorities in TN. He'd been in trouble before in MA. He had experience in this stuff. And warrants (hence the fictitious ID). He isn't so mentally ill that he wasn't cognizant of punishment. His mind was sound enough to know to get fake ID and flee MA, knowing his past violent behavior (assault and battery, open and gross lewdness, resisting arrest and drug charges) was wrong and against the law. He also managed to behave well enough to get certain people along the trail corridor to give him money, bus tickets, food, rides and such after he was released in TN. On multiple occasions he consciously turns on the acceptable behavior required to manipulate people and circumstances, and then turns it off and goes back to scaring and hurting people once away from public scrutiny with authorities nearby. Mentally ill? Quite probably. Legally insane - unable to appreciate the nature and quality or the wrongfulness of his acts? I'm skeptical.

You seem to be confusing mental illness generally, and paranoid schizophrenia, which Mr. Jordan exhibits clear signs of. Paranoid schizophrenics are often violent. I doubt you have any background in psychology or psychiatry.

What is likely to happen is this: Mr. Jordan is going to be declared insane, and will not face trial. He will spend the next thirty or forty years in a psychiatric facility.

In addition, Unicoi County is going to be sued for negligence. They will likely settle prior to a trial.

[spfleisig]

Their channel is "It's Who We Are". They are not the same hikers as the three in the interview. They did not talk about the actual incident;, they talked about the trauma they are feeling. Based on their comments, I assumed they were the other two hikers referenced in the news articles, the ones who got away.

They said they were going to stay off the trail for a few days to process what they went through. They also mentioned that they filmed several other videos prior to the incident and they'll upload them eventually. And that they filmed and posted that video so that their followers would know they are safe.

I was following It's Who We Are from the beginning but somehow I missed this post. Is there anyway to see it now that the post was removed? I tried the wayback machine website but either I don't know how to use the website or there is no video.

[4eyedbuzzard]

You seem to be confusing mental illness generally, and paranoid schizophrenia, which Mr. Jordan exhibits clear signs of. Paranoid schizophrenics are often violent. I doubt you have any background in psychology or psychiatry.

What is likely to happen is this: Mr. Jordan is going to be declared insane, and will not face trial. He will spend the next thirty or forty years in a psychiatric facility.



In addition, Unicoi County is going to be sued for negligence. They will likely settle prior to a trial.

No, I am not a psychiatrist, nor did I ever qualify myself as one. My comments are just personal observation of his reported behaviors. But in my personal experience, people with many different forms of mental illness often minimize and/or hide their illness from others. There's lots of stigma associated with even fairly common conditions like depression, and there are often unwanted or even adverse consequences that lead people to modify their behavior, say they are okay, or even hide what's really going on. I was just pointing out that it's not unusual for people to behave differently when they have reason to.


I would guess that no one can diagnose

specifically

what is wrong with Jordan without detailed examination. What's observable on the surface is that he is violent, delusional at times, but when necessary, knew how to act when it suited his purposes. But to be considered legally insane, his defense would have to prove that he basically didn't know he was "doing harm/wrong" at the time of the act. Whichever way that goes, yes, he will still very likely be locked up for life.


Will Unicoi County/Sheriff get sued? Probably, and they may settle if for no other reason than exposure/defense costs. But he was charged and the case was adjudicated. So who knows?

[Pinnah]

During my section hike this year I was hiking with two nurses. I asked them with their medical background do they carry more or less of a first aid kit. The answer they gave was less of a kit and knowledge was their best tool. Same logic applies here. Be aware of your surroundings. I size up every single person I meet and gauge their threat level. If your gut is not feeling it hike on. What threats are you realistically going to face and what will mitigate that threat? I don't carry anything that you would recognize as a weapon on the trail.

Thanks for the thoughtful and careful response. If you don't mind though, I'd like to press a bit deeper.

While I really like and agree with the advice to carefully size people up, the reports of this attack suggest this was not sufficient. I think people who encountered this young man quickly understood that he was disturbed and dangerous.

The other issue I find haunting about this story is our inability to quickly put distance between ourselves and a threatening person while on the trail, particularly at night when you've already made camp. Fleeing into the night, perhaps with no footwear, creates its own set of problems.

Lastly, I suspect that you, like nearly all LEOs have received more than a little self-defense training while I, like most hikers, have not. And, as this story shows, even a combat veteran can be overtaken.

I have to wonder if any of the 4 hikers been armed with non-lethal OC spray if that would have increased their chances? I understand that OC spray has it's limitations and those who advocate carrying a firearm point that out frequently.

I'm closing in on 60. While I'm a big man, I'm not going to physically stop a knife attack by hand. I can certainly recognize a threat when I see it but my ability to leave a threat like this in a situation like this is about nil.

So, I'm looking for advice on how to stay safer. OC? Something else?

Edited to add: IMO, the real tragedy of this story is the lack of universal health care and with that, the lack of adequate mental health resources.

[JNI64]

Thanks for the thoughtful and careful response. If you don't mind though, I'd like to press a bit deeper.

While I really like and agree with the advice to carefully size people up, the reports of this attack suggest this was not sufficient. I think people who encountered this young man quickly understood that he was disturbed and dangerous.

The other issue I find haunting about this story is our inability to quickly put distance between ourselves and a threatening person while on the trail, particularly at night when you've already made camp. Fleeing into the night, perhaps with no footwear, creates its own set of problems.

Lastly, I suspect that you, like nearly all LEOs have received more than a little self-defense training while I, like most hikers, have not. And, as this story shows, even a combat veteran can be overtaken.

I have to wonder if any of the 4 hikers been armed with non-lethal OC spray if that would have increased their chances? I understand that OC spray has it's limitations and those who advocate carrying a firearm point that out frequently.

I'm closing in on 60. While I'm a big man, I'm not going to physically stop a knife attack by hand. I can certainly recognize a threat when I see it but my ability to leave a threat like this in a situation like this is about nil.

So, I'm looking for advice on how to stay safer. OC? Something else?

Edited to add: IMO, the real tragedy of this story is the lack of universal health care and with that, the lack of adequate mental health resources.

Go take a self defense class, it will help on and off trail . Because ship happens anywhere anytime!

[stephanD]

What is likely to happen is this: Mr. Jordan is going to be declared insane, and will not face trial. He will spend the next thirty or forty years in a psychiatric facility.

As a former psychiatry nurse, I agree. But he will be held in a locked unit for the criminally insane and not with the general population.

[JPritch]

Edited to add: IMO, the real tragedy of this story is the lack of universal health care and with that, the lack of adequate mental health resources.

[LittleRock]

So, I'm looking for advice on how to stay safer. OC? Something else?

My hiking poles double as self-defense weapons should I ever need one.

[JNI64]

Exactly but probably not strong enough to use as a club not a swinging weapon more like a spear type weapon were you keep a little distance and use carbide tip as spear type ,two hands and soft targets throat, eyes , groan.

[Thrifty Endurance]

Hi all, I am new to this forum but not new to hiking or the AT. I'm a section hiker and have section hiked the AT and other trails in North and South America.

Like many of you I care a lot about the AT and the people on it. There is nothing quite like it's community. Like many of you I've been carefully studying the news, reading the official complaint, visiting vlgs and blogs, trying to understand what happened because I think it's important. It's important to the trail, important to the memory of the victims and could be really important to preventing something like this again through the acquired knowledge of facts and by listening carefully to the survivors.

I want to have a moment of silence for Mr. Sanchez, an army veteran who suffered from PTSD and also keep the un-identified injured woman, a.k.a. "Victim #2" from the official complaint in my thoughts. I also want to keep in my thoughts "Hiker #1 and Hiker #2", a.k.a. the "It's Who We Are" vloggers. What they also experienced is harrowing to say the least. For all the survivors this will likely take a long time to heal from, physically and mentally.

My thoughts are also with Odie Norman, who has had his name unfairly dragged through the mud on this, not by journalists but by people on this and other forums. He put himself in harms way trying to do the right thing and he wasn't the only one who was of the idea to get the perpetrator off the trail.

My thoughts go out to anyone of the numerous people that the perpetrator terrorized on the trail. If you've dug deep into reports and vlogs, this touched a lot of people, caused a lot of sleepless nights and will not soon be forgotten, nor should it, by many of those on-trail or close to those on-trail. No one not on-trail can judge the actions of anyone in that situation. Full stop.

I am disheartened though a bit about what I am reading here on this forum as well as a few other places like the AT subreddit. Disheartened in two ways.

1. This thread was originally created, at face value, to broadcast valuable information about incidents on the trail so that others might be made aware and be safer for it. It quickly descended into a lot of off topic, tangential opinion or worse, mis-information and judgement. I think there is a lesson to be learned here. If someone posts something like this, something that is timely and is for the benefit of people on-trail or their supporters, the thread really needs to be kept to factual information that can help people or corroborate details. If you don't have something to say that is useful to someone on-trail or a loved one of someone on-trail, then you're likely just spreading drama.

2. Given what happened in the following weeks culminating in last Friday's attack, it seems natural that this thread shifted from it's original topic to information regarding the subsequent fatal attack and police investigation. What seems very distasteful though is the theories that continue to be posted about 'who was who' and 'who did what' and worst of all: 'who is to blame'. None of this speculation helps keep the facts straight and none of this helps the trail or the people on it. All the information that is known is available, theorizing on things for your entertainment, which is to say spreading false info, in the face of actual available facts, is not helping anyone.

Back to the intention of this thread and I think this forum, if you haven't read the official complaint but are invested in this topic, please do so here: https://www.scribd.com/document/4097...eral-affidavit

The news reporting in Outdoor and the New York Times, already linked in this thread are, combined with the official complaint, the most comprehensive and carefully cultivated information currently available.

peace.

Excellent first post and it is important and relevant to say what's on your mind...AND...you did so with class. Welcome to the forum! Please don't be discourage and stick around since there are plenty of other topics. I am fairly new myself. I like to add my take on Odie. I like him. I think he is a good egg and obvious he loves the trail and the hiker community. He started the Hiker Yearbook to help connect hikers, beyond their "trail names." Odie suffered from depression and as such, he wants to bring "mental awareness" to all. It's an admirable gesture. From personal experience, you just can't reform or help some people. Sometimes, all you are doing is "delaying the inevitable." I even told my hiking partner that this guy was "evil" and he was going to do something bad. I hate my own predictions. This guy was shooting off red flags everywhere since the first reports in April...I mean to threaten to kill his own dog...that is so twisted. In addition, he was knifing tables near the shelter. My grandpa was a Navy man and my dad was an Army special forces "badass" (sorry for the language...but he was). I would love to embrace everyone on trail, but some people just gave me the creeps...and I was a solo female hiker for a long time, until I met my hiking partner. NO ONE is to blame but his guy who committed this evil act. Forum threads go through their own evolution. People have opinions they wish to express. People are angry. People are blowing off steam. You will find this to be true on most all forums, even on Facebook. ATStrong

[John B]

Speaking of James Jordan's dog, is there any information on where it was taken, what happened to it, what will happen to it? Is it placed in a shelter in Bristol? Will it be available for adoption? I would hate to see it euthanized for no other reason than it's former owner is a lunatic.

[Pinnah]

I grew up with a parent with a violent personality disorder.

People with profound violent mental problems like Paranoid Schizophrenia don't choose this like a "normal" person might choose to, say, run a red light late at night.

If this sounds like a defense or an apology for the violence done by people with profound mental problems, it is not. I say this having lived with it.

But I can also tell you that getting access to adequate mental health care for family members is very, very difficult and that for-profit insurance companies have no interest what's so ever to pay for long term care for the profoundly mentally ill. And as a result, they get shunted out of the system (to reduce costs) and are passed back to their families or society at large who then end up with bearing the brunt of their violence.

The reporting is that this man had been in and out of the system long before he started threatening people on AT this year. That he was out in the general population without close monitoring and supervision is a result of our country having among the worst health care systems in the industrialized world in terms of health outcomes. As a country, our answer to profound mental illness is to push the mentally ill into homelessness. Some of them are violent and many more are violently assaulted themselves. Sad stories like this one would be greatly diminished if we as a country provided adequate health care and mental health care and imo, that is a real tragedy.

[Thrifty Endurance]

Speaking of James Jordan's dog, is there any information on where it was taken, what happened to it, what will happen to it? Is it placed in a shelter in Bristol? Will it be available for adoption? I would hate to see it euthanized for no other reason than it's former owner is a lunatic.

Good question. The last I heard "someone" was taking care of the dog...and I don't think they will put this dog down. In my opinion, he is a HERO! He led the authorities back to the crime scene. Even the dog knew what kind of guy he was following. Dogs know...believe me...they can sense it! ATStrong

[RuthN]

You seem to be confusing mental illness generally, and paranoid schizophrenia, which Mr. Jordan exhibits clear signs of. Paranoid schizophrenics are often violent. I doubt you have any background in psychology or psychiatry.

What is likely to happen is this: Mr. Jordan is going to be declared insane, and will not face trial. He will spend the next thirty or forty years in a psychiatric facility.

In addition, Unicoi County is going to be sued for negligence. They will likely settle prior to a trial.

Apparently he is not planning to use the insanity defense. https://www.wjhl.com/local/court-doc...ty-/2003516468

[rickb]

Apparently he is not planning to use the insanity defense. https://www.wjhl.com/local/court-doc...ty-/2003516468

Hard to conclude that at this point.

Could be just a maneuver to have an evaluation done in place more to the defense team’s liking.

[rickb]

So, I'm looking for advice on how to stay safer. OC? Something else?

Before this murder I would have said camping away from a shelter and/or in the company of at least two other people.

All six of the other thru hikers and the one long-distance section hiker who been murdered on the Trail were either hiking alone, or as part of a couple. And all were killed at a shelter.

This case was different in that regard.

I cannot help but wonder if part of a the reason hikers stayed on the Trail around this guy for days at time (albeit with concern) was the near universal belief that the Trail is an inherently safe place, where things like this are a 1 in a million possibility.

[hokieav8r]

Many folks have reached out regarding the dog. The dog was placed in a no kill shelter and the suspect/owner is allowed to make arrangements for a family member to take the dog. Nothing else has been printed regarding whether someone will get the dog, but the dog will be humanely taken care of as the shelter will ensure it receives a new adopted family if the owner does not do so.

I have read every single post here and a lot of posts on the FB pages for thru hikers.

It is a sad series of events. I equate it to watching a slow motion train wreck that you watched for days as the train slowly went down its path and eventually hit something in front of it. I had a bad feeling regarding this individual when we first heard about them in April. I am sure plenty of people felt the same way.

Keep posting on what you see of note as well as all the beauty and good times you find as you continue on your trek/journey/hike and remember to embrace the great times and moments you find.

Always have a plan in the wilderness, having a plan, no matter what you possess/carry with you, always lends itself to acting on something you have thought of prior to the moment.

People yearn for the views, the hike, the interactions with people and they make plans for those events.

You must plan for contingencies as well. For they will possibly happen. People plan for mail drops, hostel stops, resupply, good meals, places to camp, etc.

You must plan for the things you loath too. Bad weather, rain gear, warm gear, heat and proper clothes and band aids.

Plan on how your pack can place a huge object in between you and something else, know that your trekking pole can puncture something or someone and keep at least 100cm or 120cm between you and them. know how to quick release your pack and break into a sprint, know where you keep your blade and how to draw it quickly when you want to use it fast instead of for opening that mountain house meal that didn't have the quick tear nick in the top right, where you like it.

If you rehearse and plan 10% as much as you plan for and coordinate for the lbs and oz saved in weight, where you keep your stove in your pack vs where you keep your rain gear, what kind of boots/shoes you wear, how long a boot lace is when it's out of the boot, how much 550 cord you carry, how hard a rock is, or whether you sleep with a trekking pole inside the tent with you, or your trekking poles are part of your tent / hammock. These plans and rehearsals can and will potentially save your life to live on rather than perish. No one wants to stop living when you are living an adventure of a lifetime. It's the same as planning for a fall on the trail or a cliff, twisting an ankle or a knee or breaking an arm or shoulder out of socket.

These plans can include knowing that a person can grab a nostril or an earlobe or a finger and just with a little twist, change the course of a day in a non lethal way. You don't have to use it, and you may never will, but just like that item you have to have with you and everyone else says, "I don't know why you carry that with you all these miles," You can carry these plans and rehearsals with you forever, and you still may never use them, but you planned for it. You rehearsed it.

Be Prepared.

It is a tragedy, I Honor the fallen in so many ways. I Honor Ronald Sanchez as a brother Veteran, Hiker and a friend that I never had the pleasure of meeting. I hope that the rest of the journeys in 2019 are in the peace and tranquility as well as the fellowship and groups that the AT provides. There is safety in numbers and many are better than one when facing a worthy opponent.

I can't wait to hike my next section and I wish you all sunny skies and softer trails.

[rickb]

Before this murder I would have said camping away from a shelter and/or in the company of at least two other people.

All six of the other thru hikers and the one long-distance section hiker who been murdered on the Trail were either hiking alone, or as part of a couple. And all were killed at a shelter.

This case was different in that regard.

I cannot help but wonder if part of a the reason hikers stayed on the Trail around this guy for days at time (albeit with concern) was the near universal belief that the Trail is an inherently safe place, where things like this are a 1 in a million possibility.

Edit: 6 other thru hikers, 7 thru hikers in all.

[gpburdelljr]

Edit: 6 other thru hikers, 7 thru hikers in all.

Why distinguish between thru-hikers, and other hikers, for something like this? I read somewhere that this will be the 12th on the trail since 1974.

[greenmtnboy]

I grew up with a parent with a violent personality disorder.

People with profound violent mental problems like Paranoid Schizophrenia don't choose this like a "normal" person might choose to, say, run a red light late at night.

If this sounds like a defense or an apology for the violence done by people with profound mental problems, it is not. I say this having lived with it.

But I can also tell you that getting access to adequate mental health care for family members is very, very difficult and that for-profit insurance companies have no interest what's so ever to pay for long term care for the profoundly mentally ill. And as a result, they get shunted out of the system (to reduce costs) and are passed back to their families or society at large who then end up with bearing the brunt of their violence.

The reporting is that this man had been in and out of the system long before he started threatening people on AT this year. That he was out in the general population without close monitoring and supervision is a result of our country having among the worst health care systems in the industrialized world in terms of health outcomes. As a country, our answer to profound mental illness is to push the mentally ill into homelessness. Some of them are violent and many more are violently assaulted themselves. Sad stories like this one would be greatly diminished if we as a country provided adequate health care and mental health care and imo, that is a real tragedy.

We have an older sister who is on three different psych meds; she may be an exception but got tons of support with her job in NYC and when she moved out, I would guess over a million in terms of hospitals, meds. and doctors for every complaint she had. She is now in a nursing home on dialysis as a result of the meds she was on years ago as a manic depressive.

So some people get quite a bit of help. I have a friend who is alcoholic and I took him to a lot of AA meetings while he was in a nursing home, he claimed that Medicare/Medicaid was paying out well into the six figures a year for him and the others there. There is no substitute for a thorough psychiatric diagnosis and treatment for those who have severe psychosis, schizophrenia, MD disorder, etc.. Too late now for the criminal, and people like that don't belong on a physically demanding place like the AT.