Tarps vs bugs

[4eyedbuzzard]

Dont totally disagree. Yet, people don't want to make the effort! That's on them not all on the tarp as a 'bad' choice. They dont make the effort because they don't have to because folks gravitate towards the familiar, what we perceive as simple.

I'd submit that people gravitate toward that which is proven reliable and repeatable in the environment it's to be used in. And you have to throw people's own experience, level of skill, and confidence in performance into that equation. If someone has stayed dry in a tent, and knows that others have as well, why would they change without gaining a significant advantage for taking that risk? It's not that a tarp is a bad choice. It's that it isn't always the best choice given the need for reliable performance by any unique user. There's little difference in weight between a tarp + bivy + groundsheet vs an integrated tent design of similar materials. If you like challenging yourself in unusual situations to hone your skills, that's fine. But for many, if not most people, the overriding purpose is to reliably stay dry, not to challenge their skills to see if they can or can not stay dry while in the middle of a hike, while wagering possibility of a very wet experience ruining their hike.

Lets be real. Many on WB are easterners with the main focus the AT. The AT is easy in many ways with it's massive uber analyzed and available infrastructrure. That ease creates a wider mindset of ease, comfort and convenience and it also influences ease of shelter choice. That mindset of familiarity, comfort and ease carries over to expecting it elsewhere and repeatedly.

Grandma Gatewood(REALLY?) and Eric(Eric by his own in person accounts, he was a kid) were not highly skilled, as if it takes a great amount of effort to use a tarp effectively. That's an excuse, an excuse so not to have to make an effort. Fine, don't make the effort, but don't blame it all on the tarp for the tarp not being the choice in the east and specifically the AT or LT.

1) From all evidence I can find (hiker surveys, pics, etc), tents outnumber tarps on western trails as well.

2) While not skilled when they started, I would imagine by the time they both finished their first thru, both GG and ER had learned a thing or two. But that isn't the point regarding them being outliers. They hiked in a different era. GG in 55? ER in 69? You could count on your fingers the number of thru-hikers on any trail at that point in history. Thru-hiking wasn't mainstream or even common by any stretch of the imagination. Tents were pretty heavy back then. GG is an interesting story. Only took a shower curtain originally because she thought there were cabins waiting at the end of every day's hike. So, yeah, she learned a lot about tarps fast. And ER's 80 day AT hike was even the FKT for a while I believe. He wasn't your average hiker. Back then, tents were heavy (a "lightweight" Eureka Timberline was 7 lbs - and expensive in its day), and shelter space was much easier to find on the AT. So much so that many of us didn't carry a tent, we only carried a tarp or tube tent as a backup. Then, as it is now, it was about function and weight and need and anticipated use. When they were originally built, shelters were the answer to the problem of heavy canvas. Yes, they are now a holdover in that sense (would they have been built if today's tech existed back then?) and are part of the unique culture of the AT, as are the concentrated camping areas around them. Some hate them, some love them. But, they tend to attract lots of hikers when limbs and dead stand starts falling in a storm. They have their upside as well.

3) I don't understand the ongoing diatribe regarding "lack of effort" and "easterners". It's as though you have an overriding agenda to prove some closely held negative opinion you have formed regarding eastern hikers vs western hikers. I've met hikers from both coasts and the middle. Their similarities, skill levels, etc, far outnumber their differences in my experience.

Damn well right HYOH. Use what shelter you want. But do not imply a tarp is a BAD choice because it rains.

If you want to talk about effort look at the extent hammockers make. They make hangs as shelters adaptable to a wide range of conditions. That community always is advancing, evolving, not afraid. They don't get complacent. There's always something new coming out of that community. If we don't ever move beyond AT norms we become complacent. That's part of what we're dealing with- complacency.

Different gear works better in different environments. Would hammocks work on the CDT? Or in the Whites in NH? Lack of trees is a defining issue. Both are places where free-standing tents are good shelter solutions. But a tarp only strategy can be problematic in the Whites due to terrain, platforms, etc. Been there, done that. I've set up tarps in the Whites, and it's absolutely not the best shelter solution even with the extra effort I supplied. How about alcohol stoves vs canister? Alky definitely takes more effort and skill. Does that make it better everywhere and at any temperature for any purpose? No. It's not all about people's effort or skill. It's more often than not about suitability to the environment and task.

[MuddyWaters]

These are tarps:

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2 would be poor in a storm
1would be allright
2 would be fantastic

Tarps are all different
Its a fallacy that much skill is needed as well

Dont pitch where water runs
Pitch sloped side into wind direction
Use enough anchors/guylines
Pitch low to keep wind out in storm conditions

Thats 95%

[Slo-go'en]

Well, I draged out my collection of tarps, bivy sacks and tents and laid them out on the coffee table. I have a pretty good collection.

At 1lb, 9 oz for the SMD Trekker tent, I can't see going back to using any of the tarps and bivy sacks I own. They were were a great alturnative when my only tent weighed in at 6 pounds and required a frame pack to carry. Sure glad those days are long gone.

[4eyedbuzzard]

These are tarps:

1398533453_103825.jpg
dsc02226.jpg
images.jpeg
d6e54854378c68fbf55d7b33f71d139b_600x600.jpg
tarp-bivy-backpacking-shenandoah.jpg

2 would be poor in a storm
1would be allright
2 would be fantastic

Tarps are all different
Its a fallacy that much skill is needed as well

Dont pitch where water runs
Pitch sloped side into wind direction
Use enough anchors/guylines
Pitch low to keep wind out in storm conditions

Thats 95%

Here's a couple of tarp pitches from the trail in PA and NH:

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Flat pitch at medium height. Okay in fair weather, maybe light rain with minimal wind.

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SANY1003x.JPG

Same location, same tarp, pitched as tipi with door flap shown open and closed. Better in rain and wind, but condensation can be an issue when zippered up.

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Same tarp, pitched as tipi on tent platform in NH. Required some thought and additional effort getting it tied down to platform, rocks, and a pull out to tree to get suitable interior height. Pitched it once, then had to move it to where it's shown as the site started filling up and the caretaker requested room for another tent on the platform. A free standing tent would have been a lot easier setup here.

I'm not anti-tarp. I really like the tarp shown in the pics here. It's 8 x 10, just over 1lb and has the added flap for pitching as a zippered tipi if needed to hunker down in a storm. But it has its limitations. Like any tarp, bugs get in, water can come in underneath, etc. Even with good site selection, you don't always get the fall line of rain runoff right. It's a good low weight option in late summer/early fall when the bugs are minimum. It's decent at rain protection, but I wouldn't call it as good as a tent. There are times a tent is a better choice IMO. I wouldn't choose it as my only shelter on a LD hike where both bug and rain protection were considerations. But we all have different preferences when it comes to such things.

[Feral Bill]

8x10 Etowah silnylon tarp with stakes and lines: 18 Oz
Sea to Summit bug net (works well): 7.8 Oz
Ground Cloth (sylnylon scrap): 4 Oz

Total < 30 Oz.

No bugs expected? 22 Oz

Snow? Blue foam pad eliminates ground cloth. 18 Oz

Gained? Tons of room, much less condensation, greater contact with surroundings. Tarp works with hammock as well, and can make an extra shelter for groups when using tents.


"...you do not really need a tent in rain, except perhaps when the rain is heavy and prolonged and wind driven. There are, as we shall see, better shelters." Colin Fletcher, The Complete Walker.


The defense rests

[4eyedbuzzard]

8x10 Etowah silnylon tarp with stakes and lines: 18 Oz
Sea to Summit bug net (works well): 7.8 Oz
Ground Cloth (sylnylon scrap): 4 Oz

Total < 30 Oz.

No bugs expected? 22 Oz

Snow? Blue foam pad eliminates ground cloth. 18 Oz

Gained? Tons of room, much less condensation, greater contact with surroundings. Tarp works with hammock as well, and can make an extra shelter for groups when using tents.


"...you do not really need a tent in rain, except perhaps when the rain is heavy and prolonged and wind driven. There are, as we shall see, better shelters." Colin Fletcher, The Complete Walker.


The defense rests

Below quoted from Andrew Skurka, a guy who also knows a bit about hiking and gear, who prefers to use different shelter systems based upon the environment and conditions. I bet he and Colin Fletcher and Ed Garvey and others would probably all have slightly differing opinions.

Modular Tent
If I had to own a single shelter system, this would be it. It can be used successfully in all 3+ seasons and in nearly all locations, with relatively few tradeoffs. The same cannot be said of my other shelter systems, which perform better in niche settings but which have more limitations.

Tarp & Bivy
On summer and fall trips in the Mountain West, I normally go to bed under cloudless skies and with no bug pressure. For these conditions, the Modular Tent is overkill, so I instead carry a Tarp & Bivy. The tarp offers insurance against the occasional rain event; I rarely have to pitch it. And the bivy protects me from early-morning mosquitoes and any crawling insects. The weight-savings of the Tarp & Bivy is significant, but many backpackers will find it too minimalist.

Gathered End Hammock
To understand why hammocks are a legitimate backpacking shelter, take a stroll on the Appalachian Trail or in a National Park like Glacier or Rocky Mountain with designated backcountry campsites. You will find a dearth of quality ground sites, and a prevalence of horrible ones: hard-packed, standing water, sloping, rocky and rooty, and inhabited by “mini-bears” like mice and squirrels.
Hammocks are the solution. For a night of consistent and comfortable sleep, needed are just two sturdy trees about five stride-lengths apart. Throughout the eastern woodlands, they are easy to find.

I don't see the need to "defend" one system over another just because I personally prefer one over another. They all have their advantages and disadvantages based on conditions.

[T.S.Kobzol]

Here is mine on 3 different trips...we survived


One near Harpers Ferry and one near Bondcliff in White Mountains

Here on one of the islands in Stonington


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MuddyWaters]

Survived squall just fine. But next rain came and spent all night here.
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Nice evening amongst the cow dung....

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[Feral Bill]

[QUOTE=4eyedbuzzard;

I don't see the need to "defend" one system over another just because I personally prefer one over another. They all have their advantages and disadvantages based on conditions.[/QUOTE]
We agree! No need to attack any one system, either. The OP was looking for a basis to choose. If he is interested in tarping, he can get one for a few buck at the hardware store, give it a try himself. Tents can be rented, as well.

[Zalman]

On summer and fall trips in the Mountain West, I normally go to bed under cloudless skies and with no bug pressure. For these conditions, the Modular Tent is overkill, so I instead carry a Tarp & Bivy. The tarp offers insurance against the occasional rain event; I rarely have to pitch it. And the bivy protects me from early-morning mosquitoes and any crawling insects. The weight-savings of the Tarp & Bivy is significant, but many backpackers will find it too minimalist.

Or not minimalist enough. I've spent well over 1000 nights camping out in the "Mountain West", with (or without) a tarp, never used a bivy, and never once experienced crawling insects (or arachnids) trying to sleep with me. In this environment, I would consider the bivy sack an entirely psychological need.

[MuddyWaters]

In this environment, I would consider the bivy sack an entirely psychological need.

The greatest need of all.....

[Dogwood]

Apologies to 4eyed buzzard if I came off combative.

Understand I can only swill down so much anti tarp rhetoric, tarps are a problem, when it's obvious sometimes those most vociferous are sometimes the ones' who've had issues finding solutions instead of more intently focusing on possible solutions. What you're saying isn't untrue.

[Dogwood]

Below quoted from Andrew Skurka, a guy who also knows a bit about hiking and gear, who prefers to use different shelter systems based upon the environment and conditions.

Couldn't agree more with Andrew. That's why I too have two different shelter systems. Hammocks, tarps, shaped tarps, mids, bivies, and two tents. I find myself still cowboy camping and UL flat or Cat cut tarping most often. Different tools. If I had to pick one I can't because it means having to put aside put aside diversity of choices and a more modular/component based shelter system mindset which goes against UL minimalist tenets of systems and integration. I want to be connected with Nature, exposed to it, living and breathing as part of it, not separated from it with a piece of silny or DCF. All this comes together in a more minimalist les consumptive approach. Got me to build and live in a Tiny House PT. It was easy to transition to that lifestyle. That lifestyle and trail style are less departed. It's similar.

[Slo-go'en]

The nice thing about this topic is that it can be debated endlessly

Tarps aren't all bad and tents aren't all good. Each has it's trade offs. It's important to know what the trade offs are between them to make an intelligent choice.

If you do need bug protection, and often you do, then you need a net. The advantage to having a trap/net combination is you can just use one or the other depending on conditions. The advantage to a tent is there is less fuss factor. As for as weight, the tarp/net combo will come in about the same as an equivalent tent. Now it's a bit of a toss up as to which way to go, so the final decision may just come down to cost.

[Zalman]

In this environment, I would consider the bivy sack an entirely psychological need.

The greatest need of all.....

Indeed, no less worthy a category of need!

[Zalman]

The advantage to having a trap/net combination is you can just use one or the other depending on conditions.

I guess that assumes that you only own one or the other -- a tarp or a tent. If you own both, then you can still use one or the other depending on conditions. So I think you're right about it coming down to cost (a tarp/tent combo will likely cost a good bit more than a tarp/bug-net combo), and whether or not that cost is worth the advantage of having a full tent in bug-mode.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Apologies to 4eyed buzzard if I came off combative.

Understand I can only swill down so much anti tarp rhetoric, tarps are a problem, when it's obvious sometimes those most vociferous are sometimes the ones' who've had issues finding solutions instead of more intently focusing on possible solutions. What you're saying isn't untrue.

Apology not necessary. We are all passionate debaters. Certainly gave the OP an earful. And hopefully with some good info mixed in.

[Dogwood]

Or not minimalist enough. I've spent well over 1000 nights camping out in the "Mountain West", with (or without) a tarp, never used a bivy, and never once experienced crawling insects (or arachnids) trying to sleep with me. In this environment, I would consider the bivy sack an entirely psychological need.

There's another word throw about that conjures up different things - bivy. Most dont use a bivy so...

Some see a bivy as a bug bivy, WR bivy, WP bivy, as a stand alone, with another piece such as a tarp, etc.

For me, bivy use isn't psychological security based to single out insect protection. I dont even own a bug net bivy.

Ron at MLD offers a list of some the benefits of why I'll use a WR bivy such as the MLD Superlight:

1. To be part of a total sleep heat retention system, adding 5 – 15 degrees of warmth, especially when even a slight wind gets under and around your shelter.
2. Bug protection.
3. Built in ground cloth.
4. To protect from any blown or splashed rain /snow that gets in under your overhead shelter.
5. To shave weight from a total shelter system. It’s a 7 oz multi-purpose piece of gear that allows for a lighter sleeping bag, a smaller overhead shelter, and no ground cloth, or extra bug protection system.
6. It can be used alone for night temps above about 65 degrees when you do not need a sleeping bag but do need some wind/water protection. It adds a bit of warmth (like a sheet.)
7. It can be used alone, with no overhead tarp, for cowboy camping.
8. It pairs perfectly with a backcountry-style quilt to limit warm air venting during night moves.
9. By putting your sleep pad inside the bivy you increase the sleep pads thermal efficiency by limiting convective heat loss.


Using a bivy changes the sleep system's characteristics and melds elements of that system with the shelter system. It can be both a shelter and a sleep system component. A MLD Superlight or Ti Goat Ptarmigan is also apparel if needed in a pinch draped over shoulders or around waist. And, FWIW a tent enclosed or otherwise can and in some incidences IMHO should be perceived as part of the sleep system too! A bag or quilt used inside a tent adds warmth, reduces or eliminates drafts, changes quilt or bag face fabric performance traits, etc A tent is likened to a large bivy. And a bivy is likened to a minimalist tent.

[Zalman]

sure, a bivy has uses ... that's why people use them. But as a requirement for tarp usage in the "Mountain West", not so much. The only factor here that is directly related to whether or not one is needed in conjunction with a tarp is the notion that you could use a smaller tarp with a bivy. I've seen tarps as light as 3.5oz that are tiny, and would only work with a 7oz bivy. But then, I can use a much larger tarp that weighs 7.5oz, so the bivy doesn't do anything for me in that regard. If you figure in the groundsheet I would carry, it comes out about the same weight, and more space under the larger tarp.

(As far as carrying a bivy + a lighter sleeping bag ... that sounds like dreaming to me. 7oz of down is going to be lot warmer than bivy sack, no matter how you slice it.)

And then of course is the part you left out Dogwood: "The Mountain West". Bugs, Splashing, and 65° nights are three bivy cases I've never encountered in that environment. Just my experience, ymmv!

[Dogwood]

I've seen tarps as light as 3.5oz that are tiny, and would only work with a 7oz bivy. But then, I can use a much larger tarp that weighs 7.5oz, so the bivy doesn't do anything for me in that regard.

That's a worthy wt saving perspective IMO. I'm of the flat and cat cut A frame tarp shelter set up perspective too its greater wt savings to simply add the greater 2-3 ozs in fabric for greater coverage than adding a 6-8 oz bivy for spin drift. FWIW, I'm not using a bivy solely for splash protection. Again, it can be that as part of the reason but not the cumulative sum of THE reason.
(As far as carrying a bivy + a lighter sleeping bag ... that sounds like dreaming to me. 7oz of down is going to be lot warmer than bivy sack, no matter how you slice it.)
I agree. But now you're leaving out the part a bivy can be both a shelter and sleep system component. In that context there are cross over interconnected benefits.
And then of course is the part you left out Dogwood: "The Mountain West". Bugs, Splashing, and 65° nights are three bivy cases I've never encountered in that environment. Just my experience, ymmv

In that Mountain West you never experienced rain or snow, bugs or 65 temps?

Not debating. Adding