Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 83
  1. #61
    Registered User
    Join Date
    08-12-2015
    Location
    Newark, DE
    Age
    59
    Posts
    440

    Default

    I think it is a big deal. I don't go backpacking to give up my civil rights. If you are obeying the law they have no right to ask for your papers. And I would be surprised if rangers can legally require your papers either. They probably ask the RR to do this to avoid lawsuits for the NPS. Personally I do not want to encounter that on the trail.

  2. #62
    ThroughHiker WannaBe kolokolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-11-2008
    Location
    Beachwood, Ohio
    Age
    59
    Posts
    439
    Images
    52

    Default

    Seriously - you don't think rangers can legally ask to see your permit?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Formerly uhfox

    Springer to DWG
    N Adams, MA to Clarendon VT
    Franconia Notch to Crawford Notch

  3. #63
    Registered User
    Join Date
    08-28-2007
    Location
    Georgia and Hawaii
    Posts
    17,315

    Default

    So if in your mind you are obeying the law NP Rangers have no legal right to verify that in fact you are obeying the law?

    Section 1.6 Permits, 36 CFR 1.6(f) - (regarding Backcountry Camping Permits) - Permits will be specific in nature to the activity being permitted. In those cases where permit use is frequent a specific permit form has been designed, i.e. backcountry permit, campground fee permit, commercial photography//filming permit. In most other cases a special use permit or letter of authorization will be prepared laying out the specific conditions under which the permitted activity is authorized. In all cases a permit or letter of authorization must be in the permit’ee’s possession at all times and exhibited to any authorized person upon request.





    https://www.nps.gov/grsm/learn/manag...endium-all.pdf

  4. #64
    Registered User
    Join Date
    11-13-2015
    Location
    Orangeville, Ontario, Canada
    Age
    68
    Posts
    368

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SkeeterPee View Post
    I don't go backpacking to give up my civil rights.
    As a Canadian, I try to be mindful that while I have rights, they come included with civic responsibilities.

    I fail to see how my civic responsibilities would not include me showing a permit.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  5. #65
    Registered User
    Join Date
    08-12-2015
    Location
    Newark, DE
    Age
    59
    Posts
    440

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kolokolo View Post
    Seriously - you don't think rangers can legally ask to see your permit?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The images I can find for the permit and the GSMNP web site do not seem to have any rules that you need to show the permit, but you do need to carry it. No where does it say it needs to be displayed to a RR or Ranger. In general, the courts have ruled that police can't stop you legally without probable cause of a crime. If they see you walk into the park and not file your permit, that would be probable cause, or if you are illegally camping. But if you are minding your own business, they could ask, but I don't know if they could legally stop you. I do plan to have one when I go through the park, I would not show a RR, but would a Ranger as it would not be worth the hassle not to show them.

  6. #66
    Registered User
    Join Date
    08-28-2007
    Location
    Georgia and Hawaii
    Posts
    17,315

    Default

    Vinny Gambini:
    Ms. Vito, it has been argued by me, the defense, that two sets of guys met up at the Sac-O-Suds, at the same time, driving identical metallic mint green 1964 Buick Skylark convertibles. Now, can you tell us by what you see in this picture, if the defense's case holds water?
    Vinny Gambini:
    Ms. Vito, please answer the question: does the defense's case hold water?
    Mona Lisa Vito:
    No! The defense is wrong!
    Vinny Gambini:
    Are you sure?
    Mona Lisa Vito:
    I'm positive.




  7. #67
    Registered User
    Join Date
    08-12-2015
    Location
    Newark, DE
    Age
    59
    Posts
    440

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    So if in your mind you are obeying the law NP Rangers have no legal right to verify that in fact you are obeying the law?

    Section 1.6 Permits, 36 CFR 1.6(f) - (regarding Backcountry Camping Permits) - Permits will be specific in nature to the activity being permitted. In those cases where permit use is frequent a specific permit form has been designed, i.e. backcountry permit, campground fee permit, commercial photography//filming permit. In most other cases a special use permit or letter of authorization will be prepared laying out the specific conditions under which the permitted activity is authorized. In all cases a permit or letter of authorization must be in the permit’ee’s possession at all times and exhibited to any authorized person upon request.





    https://www.nps.gov/grsm/learn/manag...endium-all.pdf
    Good someone finally found a link saying you need to show a permit

    But RR's are not mentioned at all. Can you find the authorized person list?

  8. #68
    Registered User
    Join Date
    05-05-2011
    Location
    state of confusion
    Posts
    9,586
    Journal Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SkeeterPee View Post
    Good someone finally found a link saying you need to show a permit

    But RR's are not mentioned at all. Can you find the authorized person list?
    In 36 CFR
    Authorized person means an employee or agent of the National Park Service with delegated authority .


    ATC employees are not federal employees and are not governed by CFR.

    However the ATC is an agent of The NPS.

    As part of the Ridge Runners job is to issue permits to people who don't have them, it's pretty clear that they've been given authority to ask if people have them in order to ascertain that.

    They cannot force people to comply.

    But with the radio they can be a tattle tale and call an LE Ranger. This is no different from you or I calling the Backcountry office and reporting a suspected violator, because RR is not NPS employee. But, due to a working relationship with the park, their report might be taken more seriously.


    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 03-16-2019 at 02:50.
    "Inevitably, a long distance hiker must choose between travelling light, and not travelling at all." - Earl V. Shaffer

  9. #69
    Furlough's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-17-2004
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Age
    57
    Posts
    836
    Images
    124

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SkeeterPee View Post
    The images I can find for the permit and the GSMNP web site do not seem to have any rules that you need to show the permit, but you do need to carry it. No where does it say it needs to be displayed to a RR or Ranger. In general, the courts have ruled that police can't stop you legally without probable cause of a crime. If they see you walk into the park and not file your permit, that would be probable cause, or if you are illegally camping. But if you are minding your own business, they could ask, but I don't know if they could legally stop you. I do plan to have one when I go through the park, I would not show a RR, but would a Ranger as it would not be worth the hassle not to show them.
    Go back and read post #25.
    "Too often I would hear men boast of the miles covered that day, rarely of what they had seen." Louis L’Amour

  10. #70
    Furlough's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-17-2004
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Age
    57
    Posts
    836
    Images
    124

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SkeeterPee View Post
    Good someone finally found a link saying you need to show a permit But RR's are not mentioned at all. Can you find the authorized person list?
    Go back and read post #27.
    "Too often I would hear men boast of the miles covered that day, rarely of what they had seen." Louis L’Amour

  11. #71
    Registered User
    Join Date
    06-18-2010
    Location
    NJ
    Age
    42
    Posts
    2,979
    Images
    1

    Default

    another thought from my one encounter with a RR in the smokies-

    while hiking in rain and sleet i encountered him heading in the opposite direction from me. we stopped and chatted about conditions for a second, he asked if there were many other people out, how i was doing, things like that. he did not ask to see my permit. this was in a place where there are few if any day hikers ever.

    in a bit i got to a shelter just as it started to hale and thunder and lightning and the wind kicked up several notches. a few minutes later he arrived at the shelter too, having turned back. after sometime, several more hikers started showing up. THEN he started checking permits.

    more and more it seems to me like hiker meets RR in the pouring rain and asks to see permit and hiker angrily refuses is a case of two people with less than optimal attitudes encountering each other. it does happen. there doesnt need to be 1 person who is right and one person who is wrong.

  12. #72
    Registered User
    Join Date
    05-05-2011
    Location
    state of confusion
    Posts
    9,586
    Journal Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SkeeterPee View Post
    The images I can find for the permit and the GSMNP web site do not seem to have any rules that you need to show the permit, but you do need to carry it. No where does it say it needs to be displayed to a RR or Ranger. In general, the courts have ruled that police can't stop you legally without probable cause of a crime. If they see you walk into the park and not file your permit, that would be probable cause, or if you are illegally camping. But if you are minding your own business, they could ask, but I don't know if they could legally stop you. I do plan to have one when I go through the park, I would not show a RR, but would a Ranger as it would not be worth the hassle not to show them.
    You didnt look very well
    You are confusing law and codified regulations
    The basic rules for national park and forest lands are spelled out in section 36, Code of Federal Regulations. Its clearly in there.
    In addition. There are specialized compendium of orders for individual areas and parks, as well as binding changes enacted by superintendents between issues of above documents.

    When your on property under someones elses control, you must comply with their rules, or you are not welcome. You can be forcibly legally removed.

    Under your twisted concept of law, a movie theater cant ask to see an admission ticket, or stop you from entering if you dont want to show it.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 03-16-2019 at 07:41.
    "Inevitably, a long distance hiker must choose between travelling light, and not travelling at all." - Earl V. Shaffer

  13. #73
    Registered User
    Join Date
    08-08-2012
    Location
    Taghkanic, New York, United States
    Posts
    2,885
    Journal Entries
    11

    Default

    [QUOTE=MuddyWaters;2240186]
    Quote Originally Posted by tdoczi View Post

    well, since ridgerunner is only on the AT they have no reason to check or issue permits for anywhere else in the park. To issue a permit, I'm guessing all they do is radio the backcountry office and get them to do it. whether or not they have a paper permit to give you at that point I have no idea.....
    To this yes we carried them - standard forms that writes IIRC in triplicate, and made the reservation through BCO on the radio or cell phone on their behalf - standard and thru hiker permits could be issued this way. In a pinch we could totally hand write them, as long as they had the reservation number, and a reasonable excuse why they didn't have the paper they should be fine with that, but technically they are not in compliance.

  14. #74
    Registered User
    Join Date
    08-08-2012
    Location
    Taghkanic, New York, United States
    Posts
    2,885
    Journal Entries
    11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Furlough View Post
    What you may not be able to find on the GSMNP web site is the NPS requirement for NPS volunteers to sign a Government Optional Form 301A - Volunteer Service Agreement. In this form the individual Park can detail the specifics of the functions an individual is performing. As an example, even though PATC has been building and maintaining Trail in Shenandoah National Park since before it was a National Park, I as a trail maintainer, as of Sep 2018 am required to sign the OF301A before being allowed to volunteer my time to maintaining the trails in SNP. So, I would not be surprised that GSMNP does the same for RR and spells out on that form what their duties are. As you are required to provide personal information on this form, the signed forms are not made public.
    I don't believe this is true, I don't recall signing anything like this with the NPS, though I may be mis-remembering. The forms signed are with ATC.

  15. #75
    Furlough's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-17-2004
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Age
    57
    Posts
    836
    Images
    124

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Starchild View Post
    I don't believe this is true, I don't recall signing anything like this with the NPS, though I may be mis-remembering. The forms signed are with ATC.
    Sorry but it is true for SNP. I have had to do this. PATC trail maintainers are now required to sign the OF 301A and provide it to the SNP office. PATC trail maintainers received notification of this requirement through our PATC District managers late last summer. We signed, scanned then sent the form directly to the SNP office. If you actually read what I said IRT to GSMNP "I would not be surprised that GSMNP does the same for RR and spells out on that form what their duties are.", it should be clear that I am speculating that the GSMNP folks may do the same as the SNP folks. The OF301A is a form for the NPS not for ATC (or in my case PATC). As per the ATC website I have no doubt RRs sign and provide documentation to ATC. But the NPS can and clearly does have it's own forms it can require for folks volunteering in the Parks under their authority. Whether or not they do this in all parks I have no way of knowing.
    "Too often I would hear men boast of the miles covered that day, rarely of what they had seen." Louis L’Amour

  16. #76
    Registered User
    Join Date
    10-29-2016
    Location
    Cavalier, North Dakota
    Age
    45
    Posts
    46

    Default

    People just amaze me with their attitude toward following the rules. As someone who has had issues of people being at shelters and campsite they were not suppose to be at and then me trying to get the space that I was approved for, I am glad people are asking for permits because hopefully it keeps me from having to deal with people who are not considerate of the rules.
    Last edited by dwcoyote; 03-16-2019 at 09:10.

  17. #77
    4eyedbuzzard's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-02-2007
    Location
    Rhome, TX / Monroe, NH
    Age
    62
    Posts
    7,509
    Images
    27

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SkeeterPee View Post
    I think it is a big deal. I don't go backpacking to give up my civil rights. If you are obeying the law they have no right to ask for your papers. And I would be surprised if rangers can legally require your papers either. They probably ask the RR to do this to avoid lawsuits for the NPS. Personally I do not want to encounter that on the trail.
    It comes as a surprise to you that a U.S. NPS Ranger, sworn to enforce the laws and regulations of the US, armed with badge and gun and with powers of arrest, can legally demand to see your NPS issued permit while on NPS lands? Fascinating.

  18. #78

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SkeeterPee View Post
    I think it is a big deal. I don't go backpacking to give up my civil rights. If you are obeying the law they have no right to ask for your papers. And I would be surprised if rangers can legally require your papers either. They probably ask the RR to do this to avoid lawsuits for the NPS. Personally I do not want to encounter that on the trail.
    Keep in mind where you are. If you were walking to the store and intimidating agents frequently said, "Papers please!" to be sure you had proper travel documents, then you'd have a point. But that isn't what is going on here. They're just ensuring shelter space. I'm fine with someone managing shelter space, even if it is done during a brief meeting 3 miles from the shelter. Can they do it legally? It doesn't matter. They'll just change the law to fit their needs. You won't get anywhere by trying to be a lawyer about it.

  19. #79

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dwcoyote View Post
    People just amaze me with their attitude toward following the rules. As someone who has had issues of people being at shelters and campsite they were not suppose to be at and then me trying to get the space that I was approved for, I am glad people are asking for permits because hopefully it keeps me from having to deal with people who are not considerate of the rules.
    I agree. To understand why there are rules, and people to enforce them, all you have to do is look at what happened at Joshua Tree NP, and other NPs, during the recent goverment shutdown when there was no enforcement.

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/11/us/ca...rnd/index.html

  20. #80
    Registered User
    Join Date
    12-19-2005
    Location
    Knoxville, TN
    Posts
    2,832

    Default

    To understand why there are rules, and people to enforce them, all you have to do is look at what happened at Joshua Tree NP, and other NPs, during the recent goverment shutdown when there was no enforcement.


    yup......

    and understand when rules are broken..........things change.......

    rules being broken is what led to the change in the permitting system of GSMNP........

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
++ New Posts ++

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •