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Thread: JMT & Permits

  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    For YV JMT walk up permits arrive at the Backcountry Office by 4:30 a.m. Be one of the first three in the que. If it's raining or cold better! Why! It reduces the competition. If that weather bothers you you're likely not ready to break away from the herd. You'll get what you get. More cancellations too! Research the requirements ahead of time. Arrive informed! Make it easier for the NP Rangers. Have alternative JMT agendas. Ooh does that feel uncomfortable? It should. That's what's required but deal with it to gain the extraordinary. Demonstrate great effort on your part. It tends to lead to greater effort exercised by others. The permit will be for a next day start. Factor that time into experiencing something else worthy. Damn it's YV. If you can't think of anything else worthy to experience IMHO you are not exhibiting great effort to do research and make best use of your time. Where MW is correct is you are doing the JMT and seeking to obtain a JMT permit as the herd. You're not putting yourself in the best position to gain a permit.


    .
    there aren't any walk up permits from the valley anymore for JMT exit over Donahue. It is reservation only.

    . There are walk up permits from TM for Lyell canyon.

    Now I will echo something, the JMT is not the best of the Sierra. It stays low and only crosses passes. An enterprising person can put together a better hike. But it is pretty damn nice.

    the absolute best thing about the JMT is it's a large wilderness with no roads and few people. At least it used to be a few people. When everybody is moving north to south you don't see those other people and even though there's 50 people a day you feel like you're alone.

    Everybody hiking nobo because that's the only way they can hike it right now ruins this experience for others. they also ruin it for themselves cuz they're going to cross paths with many many people per day.

    Personally I wish they would not allow northbound hikes on the JMT period. It ruins what is really a special and unique chance to experience the Sierra wilderness the way it should be experienced. Solo. Alone.

    End of soap box.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 02-24-2019 at 17:43.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    Everybody hiking nobo because that's the only way they can hike it right now ruins this experience for others.
    If people bug you, get off the JMT. There's more trail in the Sierra than you can shake a stick at. Throw in cross country travel and you could never do it all in a lifetime. The PCT is for people who need their hands held while hiking. I know that's not you.

  3. #43
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    Hey Muddy,

    I must have had a different JMT experience than you. I went SOBO in August 2016. Yes, there were some people on the trail, lots in some places like Lyell Valley and the rest of Yosemite, but I could always find a quiet corner for myself.

    There was not a single night I camped with anyone else, unless you want to count the one night I got a cabin at the Muir Trail Ranch. In the Lyell Valley, all I had to do was cross the river and camp on the other side. I caught a trout for dinner, had a great view from my hammock of the beautiful river, and never saw another sole over there. Sure, sometimes when I reached the top of some of the passes there would be a small group already there, but most hikers did not seem to linger to enjoy the view the way I like to. I would wait patiently until I had the pass to myself, and usually get to have it for sometime to myself. Yes, Thousand island Lake was crowded with campers, so I just hiked to the far side and had that side of the lake all to myself.

    My point is that it is possible to do a traditional JMT hike and still find enough solitude to satisfy most people.
    “For of all sad words of tongue or pen,
    the saddest are these, 'It might have been.”


    John Greenleaf Whittier

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by imscotty View Post
    Hey Muddy,

    I must have had a different JMT experience than you. I went SOBO in August 2016. Yes, there were some people on the trail, lots in some places like Lyell Valley and the rest of Yosemite, but I could always find a quiet corner for myself.

    There was not a single night I camped with anyone else, unless you want to count the one night I got a cabin at the Muir Trail Ranch. In the Lyell Valley, all I had to do was cross the river and camp on the other side. I caught a trout for dinner, had a great view from my hammock of the beautiful river, and never saw another sole over there. Sure, sometimes when I reached the top of some of the passes there would be a small group already there, but most hikers did not seem to linger to enjoy the view the way I like to. I would wait patiently until I had the pass to myself, and usually get to have it for sometime to myself. Yes, Thousand island Lake was crowded with campers, so I just hiked to the far side and had that side of the lake all to myself.

    My point is that it is possible to do a traditional JMT hike and still find enough solitude to satisfy most people.
    My experience was fine.

    But know that hiking nobo, you will encounter at least 50 people per day. 4 per hour, one every 15 min on avg. As nobos increase, similar goes for sobo. Its a shame

  5. #45
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    Only "50 people per day" hiking SOBO?
    Yosemite alone has a 45 people per day coming over Donahue Pass.
    I know I've heard about some people now accessing the JMT by exiting Yosemite on alternate paths.
    I assume there are some people who start their hike north of Yosemite.
    And are there not people starting at Red's Meadows, doing flip-flop hikes, or simply local loops that include a portion of the JMT?
    Seems like during peak season, there should be closer to 100 people heading SOBO on many spots along the JMT.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by HooKooDooKu View Post
    Only "50 people per day" hiking SOBO?
    Yosemite alone has a 45 people per day coming over Donahue Pass.
    I know I've heard about some people now accessing the JMT by exiting Yosemite on alternate paths.
    I assume there are some people who start their hike north of Yosemite.
    And are there not people starting at Red's Meadows, doing flip-flop hikes, or simply local loops that include a portion of the JMT?
    Seems like during peak season, there should be closer to 100 people heading SOBO on many spots along the JMT.
    Dont disagree

    So make that 1 person every 7 min going nobo if you like

    Lovely isnt it?

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    there aren't any walk up permits from the valley anymore for JMT exit over Donahue. It is reservation only.

    . There are walk up permits from TM for Lyell canyon.

    Now I will echo something, the JMT is not the best of the Sierra. It stays low and only crosses passes. An enterprising person can put together a better hike. But it is pretty damn nice.

    the absolute best thing about the JMT is it's a large wilderness with no roads and few people. At least it used to be a few people. When everybody is moving north to south you don't see those other people and even though there's 50 people a day you feel like you're alone.

    Everybody hiking nobo because that's the only way they can hike it right now ruins this experience for others. they also ruin it for themselves cuz they're going to cross paths with many many people per day.

    Personally I wish they would not allow northbound hikes on the JMT period. It ruins what is really a special and unique chance to experience the Sierra wilderness the way it should be experienced. Solo. Alone.

    End of soap box.
    Why? Here's the NPS soapbox... and my own. Nevertheless, it applies here, to what these threads tend to do...add to problems for others. I've been one of those adding to problems because "I have answers."

    Wilderness Permits for John Muir Trail Hikers


    If you are flexible on the start date for your trip, you can submit one online application for a wide range of dates. This is only for John Muir Trail Hikers (exiting Yosemite over Donohue Pass).
    Over the last several years, Yosemite National Park has noted a significant increase in demand for permits to hike the John Muir Trail (JMT). From 2011 to 2015, there has been a 100% increase in JMT permits requested. The trail’s rising popularity has strained the traditional methods that hikers use to access the JMT. The increased number of JMT hikers has made it difficult for non-JMT hikers to get wilderness permits for other trails within Yosemite National Park. Also during this same time, the NPS has noted an increase in the number of resource related impacts within the Sunrise Creek and Lyell Canyon areas. Finally, some wilderness campsites along the JMT in Yosemite have seen a sharp increase in overnight users, which negatively impacts the quality of the visitor experience.
    To protect access for other hikers and preserve the quality of the JMT experience, Yosemite National Park implemented an exit quota in 2015. The exit quota helps the park address access and resource concerns until a comprehensive approach can be developed through the wilderness stewardship planning process. The quota limits the number of hikers exiting the Yosemite Wilderness over Donohue Pass to 45 per day.
    Wilderness trailhead quotas have not being reduced. The exit quota helps restore traditional wilderness use patterns, balance access for JMT hikers with non-JMT hikers in the Yosemite Wilderness, and reduce physical and social impacts. Additionally, the quota allows Yosemite National Park to collect visitor use and impact data along the JMT.

    AND most specifically:
    Why is it a problem if people use other trailheads to access the JMT?


    • Traditionally, JMT hikers have started their trips at either the Happy Isles or Lyell Canyon trailheads. The overwhelming demand for JMT permits has led to hikers starting their trips at other trailheads. As JMT hikers use a greater percentage of the available spaces for trailheads throughout the park, including trailheads not traditionally associated with the JMT, many non-JMT hikers are unable to get wilderness permits to hike to other areas of the park. The result is much higher use along the JMT, and much lower use elsewhere in the park, than the existing trailhead quota system intended.
      This has been a major problem that impacts other hikers, hikers not doing the JMT. IT IS ALSO ONE OF THE LEADING PIECES OF ADVICE GIVEN HERE ON WB, SO WB POSTERS, including myself, have been adding to the problem that impacts a larger whole.

      I have to admit I purposefully used myself to set someone up so I could come clean about this. I knew someone like you MW would correct me and open the door.

      We might want to honestly ask ourselves whether we act similarly in the east creating problems in GSMNP and Baxter SP when we're so AT only minded?

      I immediately recall two WBers who consider their AT impacts and enjoyably CHOOSE to experience Mrs Nature and Backpacking elsewhere - Tipi Walter and Another Kevin. AK has been highly conscientious and has walked his talk.


      If you are flexible on the start date for your trip, you can submit one online application for a wide range of dates. This is only for John Muir Trail Hikers (exiting Yosemite over Donohue Pass).
      Over the last several years, Yosemite National Park has noted a significant increase in demand for permits to hike the John Muir Trail (JMT). From 2011 to 2015, there has been a 100% increase in JMT permits requested. The trail’s rising popularity has strained the traditional methods that hikers use to access the JMT. The increased number of JMT hikers has made it difficult for non-JMT hikers to get wilderness permits for other trails within Yosemite National Park. Also during this same time, the NPS has noted an increase in the number of resource related impacts within the Sunrise Creek and Lyell Canyon areas. Finally, some wilderness campsites along the JMT in Yosemite have seen a sharp increase in overnight users, which negatively impacts the quality of the visitor experience.
      To protect access for other hikers and preserve the quality of the JMT experience, Yosemite National Park implemented an exit quota in 2015. The exit quota helps the park address access and resource concerns until a comprehensive approach can be developed through the wilderness stewardship planning process. The quota limits the number of hikers exiting the Yosemite Wilderness over Donohue Pass to 45 per day.

      This will eventually occur elsewhere, coming to the AT at some pt, if we in larger numbers don't govern ourselves as a hiking community more thoughtful of a larger whole.





  8. #48

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    Yosemite can unfortunately only be concerned with the experience within Yosemite and control that. That is all that their compendium of orders allow.

    However, the wilderness act intended to maintain a sense of untrammeled solitude in the wilderness. This is something that SEKI strives to maintain with their quotas as well.

    You certainly cannot get that going nobo on jmt. Not anymore.

    You certainly cannot get that on the AT in gsmnp during the bubble either.... There are legitimate reasons to slash thru hiker access to gsmnp.

    It's not just people here that have aggravated the situation by offering alternatives. There's Facebook groups that seem to be dedicated 2 putting as many people on the JMT is possible. When these Facebook loving hikers started showing up and trying to arrange meet-ups and parties in the wilderness.... Or doing hiker feeds out in the wilderness.... I quit looking at it. It all makes me want to vomit.

    People are either part of this problem or they're part of the solution to it.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 02-25-2019 at 21:25.

  9. #49
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    “For of all sad words of tongue or pen,
    the saddest are these, 'It might have been.”


    John Greenleaf Whittier

  10. #50
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    We don't live alienated disconnected lives. We create a cascade of interconnected consequences with each decision. There's no 'responsible only to self' vacation from this because we put on a pack hitting NP backcountry, trail, or wilderness...or opine 'advise' embraced by ourselves and others on some internet site. Opined as one who's ignorant but trying not to be so much.

    "Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek.
    Barack Obama
    Mahatma Gandhi. We mirror the world. All the tendencies present in the outer world are to be found in the world of our body. If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards him. This is the divine mystery supreme.

    Resource Manager's
    reach and observances, like that of the NPS, extend beyond Yosemite NP and west coast. Neither do they act alone...just as the AT corridor does not exist without extensive cooperation and influence of many. I sincerely hope we each will share in this.




  11. #51
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    Getting a little deep in here.
    1. If you must hike where permits are mandatory, go for it.
    2. If you must hike where permits are not required, go for it.
    3. All you folks in #2 don’t tell the folks in #1 where you go hiking.
    Cheers Y’all!
    Wayne

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venchka View Post
    Getting a little deep in here.
    1. If you must hike where permits are mandatory, go for it.
    2. If you must hike where permits are not required, go for it.
    3. All you folks in #2 don’t tell the folks in #1 where you go hiking.
    Cheers Y’all!
    Wayne
    Don't hike the hike I don't hike, dagnabbit!
    (DHHIDH)
    “For of all sad words of tongue or pen,
    the saddest are these, 'It might have been.”


    John Greenleaf Whittier

  13. #53
    Registered User Venchka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by imscotty View Post
    Don't hike the hike I don't hike, dagnabbit!
    (DHHIDH)
    “That’s a fact, Jack”, Bill Murray, Stripes.
    Wayne

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    Yosemite can unfortunately only be concerned with the experience within Yosemite and control that. That is all that their compendium of orders allow.

    However, the wilderness act intended to maintain a sense of untrammeled solitude in the wilderness. This is something that SEKI strives to maintain with their quotas as well.

    You certainly cannot get that going nobo on jmt. Not anymore.

    You certainly cannot get that on the AT in gsmnp during the bubble either.... There are legitimate reasons to slash thru hiker access to gsmnp.

    It's not just people here that have aggravated the situation by offering alternatives. There's Facebook groups that seem to be dedicated 2 putting as many people on the JMT is possible. When these Facebook loving hikers started showing up and trying to arrange meet-ups and parties in the wilderness.... Or doing hiker feeds out in the wilderness.... I quit looking at it. It all makes me want to vomit.

    People are either part of this problem or they're part of the solution to it.
    Interesting info & observations on the current state of the trail. Hopefully my on trail journies this summer yield the type of once in a lifetime experience Im seeking, with the perfect balance of natural wild beauty - intersected by impromptu exchanges with kindred spirits - - showcasing the best of humanity. ⛰🌞✌🏼

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