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  1. #61

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    I usually bury my food remains (garbage) including coffee grounds when I have them, trash I will carry out to a proper receptacle. I really don't see the issue here unless people toss their garbage onto their front lawn or alongside the sidewalk, most all of us dispose of this stuff responsibly at home. Why not in the forest?

  2. #62

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    it amazes me the lengths people will go to justify what they know is wrong - simply to be lazy and avoid carrying something out that they were perfectly willing to carry in.

    its not hard to carry it out, its a shared resource, and its all our responsibility to leave it as you found it - or better yet clean it up - to do otherwise is lazy,selfish and guarantees that the resources we are fortunate to share now will be destroyed for our children and grandchildren.

    let the justifications continue we all know (even if you refuse to admit it) they are b******t

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by D2maine View Post
    it amazes me the lengths people will go to justify what they know is wrong - simply to be lazy and avoid carrying something out that they were perfectly willing to carry in.
    its not hard to carry it out, its a shared resource, and its all our responsibility to leave it as you found it - or better yet clean it up - to do otherwise is lazy,selfish and guarantees that the resources we are fortunate to share now will be destroyed for our children and grandchildren.
    let the justifications continue we all know (even if you refuse to admit it) they are b******t
    What is your technique for carrying out your poop?

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeGoldRush View Post
    What is your technique for carrying out your poop?
    where its required wag bag - but you know that already - you are proving my point for me

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by D2maine View Post
    it amazes me the lengths people will go to justify what they know is wrong - simply to be lazy and avoid carrying something out that they were perfectly willing to carry in.

    its not hard to carry it out, its a shared resource, and its all our responsibility to leave it as you found it - or better yet clean it up - to do otherwise is lazy,selfish and guarantees that the resources we are fortunate to share now will be destroyed for our children and grandchildren.

    let the justifications continue we all know (even if you refuse to admit it) they are b******t
    What's so wrong with throwing out an apple core? Or burying a banana peel or an avocado pit? To you it may be wrong but to me it's nothing. This is what I find wrong---
    Trip 184 (313)-XL.jpg
    An idiot kid dumping his load and toilet paper next to Jacks River in the Cohutta.

    Trip 21 2-XL.jpg
    A fouled up firepit next to Slickrock Creek in NC.

    TRIP 152 172-XL.jpg
    An idiot woman who couldn't be bothered---on the Bald River trail in TN.

    TRIP 173 031-XL.jpg
    Let's have a party and just leave our tent wadded up in the fire ring.



    Quote Originally Posted by FreeGoldRush View Post
    What is your technique for carrying out your poop?
    Exactly. D2 maine----please explain.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by D2maine View Post
    where its required wag bag
    If “required” is your threshold then it doesn’t support your argument. I’m not required to pack out an orange peel I can bury and feed new plant life with.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeGoldRush View Post
    If “required” is your threshold then it doesn’t support your argument. I’m not required to pack out an orange peel I can bury and feed new plant life with.
    LOL straight copout on your part

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by gpburdelljr View Post
    If a Sasquatch slips on a banana peel on the trail, it's going to come looking for you.
    First the Squatch will eat the peel for dessert because Squatches are all Vegans. Then, it will come alookin'.

  9. #69
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    Nut shells and peels don't really bother me, but it would be nice if people at least hid them from passing hikers. What gets me are all the tiny wrappers; gum, candy, energy bars/gels, etc. I try to pick them up as I go along, but it does get tiring sometimes. I like to leave the trail even better for the next hiker if I can.

    One of my last trips, we had a fox come right into camp to eat apples from under a tree. Pretty cool to see so close. A lot of moose tracks too, but we never got to see one.

  10. #70
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    Being new to the hiking community I find it shocking to read posts from so many veteran hikers who either have no understanding of the principles of "Leave No Trace" (LNT) or decide to ignore them. To mock someone like D2maine (who follows those principles) by asking him what technique he uses to haul out his poop is not only insulting, it is a childish attempt at intimidation.

    I didn't think HYOH meant it is OK to pick and choose what parts of LNT hikers follow.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slumgum View Post
    Being new to the hiking community I find it shocking to read posts from so many veteran hikers who either have no understanding of the principles of "Leave No Trace" (LNT) or decide to ignore them. To mock someone like D2maine (who follows those principles) by asking him what technique he uses to haul out his poop is not only insulting, it is a childish attempt at intimidation.

    I didn't think HYOH meant it is OK to pick and choose what parts of LNT hikers follow.
    LNT isn't a set of laws written in stone. It started as a set of principles back in the 60's. It was poorly named from the get-go though, as it is impossible to truly leave no trace. The best we can do, short of never wandering into the woods at all, is minimize our impact. People have different opinions on what degree we go to. Many, if not most people, agree with the general concept, but differ on the details. Some take it further than others. Some carry out coffee grounds, others bury them. Some become overly zealous about preaching it to others. Some form organizations and issue top down mandates about how to hike and camp and declare that these are the inviolable rules of LNT. Some people disagree and call them out on it. As with other things in life, not everybody agrees on everything.
    Last edited by 4eyedbuzzard; 01-13-2019 at 00:08.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4eyedbuzzard View Post
    LNT isn't a set of laws written in stone. It started as a set of principles back in the 60's. It was poorly named from the get-go though, as it is impossible to truly leave no trace. The best we can do, short of never wandering into the woods at all, is minimize our impact. People have different opinions on what degree we go to. Many, if not most people, agree with the general concept, but differ on the details. Some take it further than others. Some carry out coffee grounds, others bury them. Some become overly zealous about preaching it to others. Some form organizations and issue top down mandates about how to hike and camp and declare that these are the inviolable rules of LNT. Some people disagree and call them out on it. As with other things in life, not everybody agrees on everything.
    That might be the best post yet on this earth foundation shaking topic.

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4eyedbuzzard View Post
    LNT isn't a set of laws written in stone. It started as a set of principles back in the 60's. It was poorly named from the get-go though, as it is impossible to truly leave no trace. The best we can do, short of never wandering into the woods at all, is minimize our impact. People have different opinions on what degree we go to. Many, if not most people, agree with the general concept, but differ on the details. Some take it further than others. Some carry out coffee grounds, others bury them. Some become overly zealous about preaching it to others. Some form organizations and issue top down mandates about how to hike and camp and declare that these are the inviolable rules of LNT. Some people disagree and call them out on it. As with other things in life, not everybody agrees on everything.
    tldr: i will do as i please and f-everything else - its simply selfish and lazy. if you carry it in its in no way a hardship to carry it out!

    really leave no trace poorly named - only for somebody who wishes to pick nits to find any excuse possible not to do it.

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4eyedbuzzard View Post
    LNT isn't a set of laws written in stone. It started as a set of principles back in the 60's.
    I first heard the phrase “take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints” as a cub scout in the 50s, and I suspect that its origins are much earlier.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by D2maine View Post
    tldr: i will do as i please and f-everything else - its simply selfish and lazy. if you carry it in its in no way a hardship to carry it out!

    really leave no trace poorly named - only for somebody who wishes to pick nits to find any excuse possible not to do it.

    People who are unable to show good judgement need rules as a substitute. Pack it in, pack it out is just another rule that is substituted for thinking.

    When you are using public land, what you do and how you do it should be situation specific. If you are bushwacking and you need to take a leak, you just do it where ever you like. On the other hand, if you are on a mountain peak, you either hold it or descend to a point where you can relieve yourself without impacting others' use of the land. Similarly, the impact on others of collecting firewood for a campfire in a low use area is de minimis, while in a higher use area you denude the woods an adversely impact others' experience.

    Disposing organic trash is very much a similar question of judgement. If you are in a low use area that is subject to rapid composting (ie, not the desert, not the arctic, not a rocky area), properly buried organics do not constitute an environmental issue nor do they impact other users. In the eastern US, a banana peel buried in the duff will compost within a season, an orange peel might take two seasons, and when you crap in a hole it'll be gone in a couple of months. The forest goes on as it always has. A rocky area or the desert is a different ball game.

    So, you can either stop and think about what you are doing in every situation and show good judgement based on that specific situation, or you can keep on blindly adhering to blanket rules that somebody else invented as a means of reducing the impact on high use areas.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by D2maine View Post
    tldr: i will do as i please and f-everything else - its simply selfish and lazy. if you carry it in its in no way a hardship to carry it out!
    really leave no trace poorly named - only for somebody who wishes to pick nits to find any excuse possible not to do it.
    D2Maine, I do not understand your hostility. 4-eyed's discussion above seems very reasonable to me. I doubt that name-calling will persuade anyone to come around to your way of thinking. In fact, I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Is it that hikers who leave poop in a cat-hole ate being selfish and lazy? Where do you draw the line, it is not clear to me?

    The only way to truly LNT is to stay at home (and even then we are having an effect). The trail itself makes an impact on the ecology of the forest and arguably is an unattractive scar on the landscape. But presumably we are here because we like to hike, we want to be out in the woods. So if you support that, then the question becomes how much of a trace is acceptable, and where should we draw the line?
    “For of all sad words of tongue or pen,
    the saddest are these, 'It might have been.”


    John Greenleaf Whittier

  17. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by imscotty View Post
    D2Maine, I do not understand your hostility. 4-eyed's discussion above seems very reasonable to me. I doubt that name-calling will persuade anyone to come around to your way of thinking. In fact, I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Is it that hikers who leave poop in a cat-hole ate being selfish and lazy? Where do you draw the line, it is not clear to me?

    The only way to truly LNT is to stay at home (and even then we are having an effect). The trail itself makes an impact on the ecology of the forest and arguably is an unattractive scar on the landscape. But presumably we are here because we like to hike, we want to be out in the woods. So if you support that, then the question becomes how much of a trace is acceptable, and where should we draw the line?
    every year i see the shared resource that is the trail degrade a little more from the kind of selfish lazy thinking shown in this thread, hikers are slowly destroying it. LNT and acceptance of its principals is the only decent answer anybody has come up with to slowing this trend, as long as people continue to do as they please then what is left of the trail for our grandchildren will be a sad sad thing indeed.

    so yep i get a bit ticked over this because for so many it apparently is some kind of serious hardship to simply pack out what they brought in. its a disgusting way to treat something that most here claim they love.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by imscotty View Post
    D2Maine, I do not understand your hostility. In fact, I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Is it that hikers who leave poop in a cat-hole ate being selfish and lazy? Where do you draw the line, it is not clear to me?

    The only way to truly LNT is to stay at home (and even then we are having an effect).
    Your attempt at being the voice of reason falls flat. D2maine draws the line at the 7 points that comprise LNT. It was designed to help minimize our impact while we enjoy the outdoors. Do you need me to review those for you because if you knew those points you and others would not keep bringing up poop ? Do you have a scatological fixation or is this an inane attempt to intimidate D2maine? Regarding name calling, I found out in this thread that I am "preachy" if I call out a hiker who lets her dog piss at the edge of a spring and I'm "overly zealous" if I say something to a hiker who chucks his bent trekking pole into the woods. So is the AT a libertarian utopia? Do we simply look the other way? There are no "lines"? It is only about HYOH?

  19. #79
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    I can pretty much guarantee you that the only trace of my presence you will ever see in the woods are cold gray ashes in an established fire ring - if I had a campfire the previous night. That said, I'm generally less receptive to ideas when people form big organizations, start deciding and publishing "rules", and claim we must all follow their rules to the letter to save us from ourselves. When I start seeing long lists of "thou shall nots" it starts to sound more like organized religion than environmental science. Not my cup of tea (or kool-aid). I'm just looking for some "fellowship with the wilderness."

    D2maine, I share your concern for the trail and wilderness. But I think there are bigger fish to fry than buried coffee grounds and apple cores. General trash just left everywhere and overuse have far more negative impact from a LNT standpoint. As do TP blooms in the south during thru-hiker season. Now, if we could only go back in time and stop Garvey and Bryson before they got the idea to go hiking and write books...

    Slumgum, I certainly wouldn't equate a hiker letting a dog pee in a spring with a hiker burying a tablespoon of coffee grounds or an apple core. They are not equivalent events as their impact is different. Yeah, you should voice your disapproval of the former. And perhaps discuss the latter in a more educational fashion if you so choose. But if you don't pick your battles and instead get carried away with less consequential stuff, the message just gets lost in the din.
    Last edited by 4eyedbuzzard; 01-13-2019 at 09:17.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slumgum View Post
    Your attempt at being the voice of reason falls flat. D2maine draws the line at the 7 points that comprise LNT. It was designed to help minimize our impact while we enjoy the outdoors. Do you need me to review those for you because if you knew those points you and others would not keep bringing up poop ? Do you have a scatological fixation or is this an inane attempt to intimidate D2maine? Regarding name calling, I found out in this thread that I am "preachy" if I call out a hiker who lets her dog piss at the edge of a spring and I'm "overly zealous" if I say something to a hiker who chucks his bent trekking pole into the woods. So is the AT a libertarian utopia? Do we simply look the other way? There are no "lines"? It is only about HYOH?
    Thank you for your clarification Slumgum. I missed the post where D2Maine drew the line at a strict adherence to the 7 LNT rules. That is a useful reference for discussion. To your question, I don't think I have a fixation on poop, I only mentioned it once, but I do confess Freud might have a field day with me so you might be on to something

    In terms of the lines, I think what this thread shows is that there is some disagreement here. There are actions most hikers would clearly find to be over the line, and then there are some (like my carefully hidden apple core) that we can discuss and perhaps disagree on. I think it is worthwhile to discuss these things, but I think the discussions would be more fruitful without the name calling but with an actual exchange of ideas.

    I do have a libertarian streak, so yes I respond better to reason than to rigid rules passed down from unelected faceless authorities. But I am always willing to listen and learn.
    “For of all sad words of tongue or pen,
    the saddest are these, 'It might have been.”


    John Greenleaf Whittier

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