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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    i would welcome corrections, but I am rather confident these numbers are substantially correct :
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by bears: 0
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by lightening: 0
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by drowning: 3
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by cars: 0
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by exposure/starvation: 1
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by snakes: 0
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by deadfalls: 0
    Number of AT thru hikers under age 55 killed by heart attacks: 0
    Number of AT thru hiker killed by falls: 0
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by hantavirus: 0
    Number of AT thru thru hikers killed by a train: 1
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by rabies: 0
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by complete stranger at or near a shelter: 6
    What is the source of your data that makes you so confidant? With 14 states, and multiple jurisdictions, trying to compile such a list would be a monumental task, and I doubt that this list is anywhere close to accurate.

  2. #22

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    sad story but a great read
    Trail Miles: 4,980.5
    AT Map 1: Complete 2013-2021
    Sheltowee Trace: Complete 2020-2023
    Pinhoti Trail: Complete 2023-2024
    Foothills Trail: 47.9
    AT Map 2: 279.4
    BMT: 52.7
    CDT: 85.4

  3. #23
    ME => GA 19AT3 rickb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gpburdelljr View Post
    What is the source of your data that makes you so confidant? With 14 states, and multiple jurisdictions, trying to compile such a list would be a monumental task, and I doubt that this list is anywhere close to accurate.
    My observation is limitted to Thru Hikers, 95% of whom started their hikes after I completed mine (in the same year ALDHA was founded) and began paying attention.

    Even though the number people who have attempted a thru hike now hovers around 100,000 the Trail grapevine is alive and well — especially in the age of the Internet which is when the great majority set out.

    To my way of thinking, it is virtually impossible that a thru hiker could have been killed by a snake or bear (for example) with out it becoming know to those who are plugged in. Same for the other less dramatic ways to go, albeit to a lesser degree. I may have missed some of these, and readily invite the crowd to set me straight. I expect there are some — for example there was an older thru hiker who had a heart attack after leaving a hut some years back and I have no firm knowledge of whether the cause of deaths was listed as an MI or the exposure that followed (though I expect it was the former)

    Again, my observation is limitted to thru hikers.

    Happy for others input. The ATC probably can cite a few examples, but I expect not many at all.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    I think it important to note that none of the murders of thru hikers that occurred on the AT occurred during the contemporary northbound bubble.

    In every case the victims encountered a lone male at an otherwise empty shelter with no nearby campers and that is uncommon indeed for today’s northbounders. Never has there been a murder attempt on a group of three or more — though there was one brutal but non-leathal assault on a larger group of schools girls by a gang of men some years ago — also outside of the contemporary NOBO bubble.

    i would welcome corrections, but I am rather confident these numbers are substantially correct :

    Number of AT thru hikers killed by bears: 0
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by lightening: 0
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by drowning: 3
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by cars: 0
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by exposure/starvation: 1
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by snakes: 0
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by deadfalls: 0
    Number of AT thru hikers under age 55 killed by heart attacks: 0
    Number of AT thru hiker killed by falls: 0
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by hantavirus: 0
    Number of AT thru thru hikers killed by a train: 1
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by rabies: 0
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by complete stranger at or near a shelter: 6
    I know of one thru hiker for certain killed by an auto - 1976, just north of Monson near a strange little spot called Bodfish Farm - truck hit a hiker that I had spoken with not an hour before the accident. He was just about to enter the 100 mile wilderness.
    Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    I think it important to note that none of the murders of thru hikers that occurred on the AT occurred during the contemporary northbound bubble.
    In every case the victims encountered a lone male at an otherwise empty shelter with no nearby campers and that is uncommon indeed for today’s northbounders. Never has there been a murder attempt on a group of three or more — though there was one brutal but non-leathal assault on a larger group of schools girls by a gang of men some years ago — also outside of the contemporary NOBO bubble.
    i would welcome corrections, but I am rather confident these numbers are substantially correct :
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by bears: 0 Number of AT thru hikers killed by lightening: 0 Number of AT thru hikers killed by drowning: 3 Number of AT thru hikers killed by cars: 0 Number of AT thru hikers killed by exposure/starvation: 1 Number of AT thru hikers killed by snakes: 0 Number of AT thru hikers killed by deadfalls: 0 Number of AT thru hikers under age 55 killed by heart attacks: 0 Number of AT thru hiker killed by falls: 0 Number of AT thru hikers killed by hantavirus: 0 Number of AT thru thru hikers killed by a train: 1 Number of AT thru hikers killed by rabies: 0 Number of AT thru hikers killed by complete stranger at or near a shelter: 6
    I'm not sure what "lightening" is, but I do believe lightening one's load will actually help preserve one's life. Anyway, I believe there have been seven murders of thru-hikers:
    2011: SCOTT LILLY, a hiker from South Bend, Indiana, who died from "asphyxia by suffocation" on the AT on August 12, 2011, near Cow Head Gap Virginia. His murder remains unsolved.
    1990: MOLLY LaRUE and GEOFF HOOD were found murdered in the Thema Marks Shelter just outside Duncannon, PA. Geoff had been shot and killed; Molly had been raped, tortured and killed. Paul David Crews, a troubled, troublesome loner who continued hiking the trail, was tracked down eight days later and arrested while wearing some of Hood's gear. He was convicted and sentenced to death by lethal injection. He's still alive today, alas, but remains in prison. The shelter has been removed, replaced and renamed.
    1981: ROBERT MOUNTFORD JR. an LAURA SUSAN RAMSAY.
    1975: Paul Bigley murdered twenty-two year-old Green Bay, WI native JANICE BALZA with a hatchet at the Vandeventer Shelter in Tennessee, near the Watuga Dam. Balza was hoping the hike the whole trail. Bigley wanted the backpack she was carrying. He died in prison.
    1974: JOEL POLSON, twenty-six year-old from South Carolina, was killed at a shelter in Georgia by Michigan fugitive Ralph Fox, who continued to walk south and then caught a bus to Atlanta, where he was arrested. This is the first recorded AT murder.

    There are one or two hikers who remain missing, and there have been other homicides of those hiking on the AT, although they weren't thru-hikers...
    2008: Meredith Emerson. A sad story. Google tells a lot.
    2001: Louise Chaput, a fifty-two year-old Canadian, was stabbed to death in the White Mountains, NH. She was found near the Glen Boulder Trailhead, just south of the Appalachian Mountain Club's Pinkham Notch Headquarters. Her murder remains unsolved.
    1996: Julie Williams and Lollie Winans were both discovered with their throats cut in Shenandoah National Park. Darrell David Rice was indicted for the crime in 2002, while serving time in prison for another attempted abduction.
    1988: Rebecca Wight and Claudia Brenner were making love in the woods in a Pennsylvania State Park while hiking the trail. Stephen Roy Carr shot the women eight times. Brenner was injured but managed to escape. Wright died at the scene. Carr was incarcerated.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    My observation is limitted to Thru Hikers, 95% of whom started their hikes after I completed mine (in the same year ALDHA was founded) and began paying attention.

    Even though the number people who have attempted a thru hike now hovers around 100,000 the Trail grapevine is alive and well — especially in the age of the Internet which is when the great majority set out.

    To my way of thinking, it is virtually impossible that a thru hiker could have been killed by a snake or bear (for example) with out it becoming know to those who are plugged in. Same for the other less dramatic ways to go, albeit to a lesser degree. I may have missed some of these, and readily invite the crowd to set me straight. I expect there are some — for example there was an older thru hiker who had a heart attack after leaving a hut some years back and I have no firm knowledge of whether the cause of deaths was listed as an MI or the exposure that followed (though I expect it was the former)

    Again, my observation is limitted to thru hikers.

    Happy for others input. The ATC probably can cite a few examples, but I expect not many at all.
    So your list is not based on any research, or documented data, it is only based on what you have heard about, and as such is totally unreliable.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by gpburdelljr View Post
    So your list is not based on any research, or documented data, it is only based on what you have heard about, and as such is totally unreliable.
    Unsubstantiated and unreliable are two different things.

    There has been active community around the trail for many years, with NPS, ATC and local trail group oversight. We would know if thru hikers were dieing from various causes. Could one be missed/forotten? Sure. 7? Nope.

    Murder is without a doubt a bigger threat than most other things.

    The trail is a very small place. Its 2185 mi long, but only 2' wide. Thats about 600 acres....with hundreds of people on it at any time. Word travels fast.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 12-20-2018 at 14:48.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    I think it important to note that none of the murders of thru hikers that occurred on the AT occurred during the contemporary northbound bubble.

    In every case the victims encountered a lone male at an otherwise empty shelter with no nearby campers and that is uncommon indeed for today’s northbounders. Never has there been a murder attempt on a group of three or more — though there was one brutal but non-leathal assault on a larger group of schools girls by a gang of men some years ago — also outside of the contemporary NOBO bubble.

    i would welcome corrections, but I am rather confident these numbers are substantially correct :

    Number of AT thru hikers killed by bears: 0
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by lightening: 0
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by drowning: 3
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by cars: 0
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by exposure/starvation: 1
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by snakes: 0
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by deadfalls: 0
    Number of AT thru hikers under age 55 killed by heart attacks: 0
    Number of AT thru hiker killed by falls: 0
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by hantavirus: 0
    Number of AT thru thru hikers killed by a train: 1
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by rabies: 0
    Number of AT thru hikers killed by complete stranger at or near a shelter: 6
    I would be surprised if the drowning victim total is not higher. Did you include the 2 guys who drowned in Laurel Falls (Hampton) in 2013? They were attempting a thru hike.

  9. #29
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    Wow, I am amazed that there isn't a recorded incident of a thru hiker being killed by lightning or by falling.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    Unsubstantiated and unreliable are two different things.

    There has been active community around the trail for many years, with NPS, ATC and local trail group oversight. We would know if thru hikers were dieing from various causes. Could one be missed/forotten? Sure. 7? Nope.

    Murder is without a doubt a bigger threat than most other things.


    The trail is a very small place. Its 2185 mi long, but only 2' wide. Thats about 600 acres....with hundreds of people on it at any time. Word travels fast.
    I think the number of murders is probably correct, because murders generate a lot of interest and get reported in a number of places. Deaths from lightning strikes, anaphylactic shock from an insect bite, heart attack, etc., may get little or no reporting. For example, post #20 list 0 deaths from deadfalls, but the following link documents a death by deadfall.

    https://www.tennessean.com/story/new...fety/70411404/

    Post #20 also lists 0 deaths from falls. The following link documents a death from a fall.

    https://www.heraldmailmedia.com/news...82b44bc76.html

    To think that because you’re a hiker, and know lots of other hikers, you would have heard about any deaths on the trail is ridiculous.

    The list in post #20 is undocumented AND unreliable.
    Last edited by gpburdelljr; 12-20-2018 at 15:25.

  11. #31

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    Any death on trail attracts lots if attention, not just murder.

    Medical examiners, goverment employees for SAR, etc, are involved. Deaths end up being reported in local media. People dont die on trail without being noticed and cause determined.
    Ever.

    Differentuation was made between hiker and thru hiker here.

    A few hikers have fallen , frozen, drowned, heart attack, falling trees, lightning etc. Still not numbers that eclipse murders, though.....but similar magnitude. But these werent thru hikers to my knowledge. You have cited death of just hikers.
    Not thruhikers.

    You very well may have lower risk of death by violence on trail than at home, but any way its looked at, its still one of the significant risks of death on the trail.

    And beyond shadow of a doubt.....hikers need to worry about people and not about bears.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 12-20-2018 at 15:48.

  12. #32

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    https://www.tennessean.com/story/new...fety/70411404/

    Post #20 also lists 0 deaths from falls. The following link documents a death from a fall.

    https://www.heraldmailmedia.com/news...82b44bc76.html

    [/QUOTE]

    Neither were thru hikers however, so it wouldn't change the list in post #20

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    Any death on trail attracts lots if attention, not just murder.

    Medical examiners, goverment employees for SAR, etc. Deaths end up being reported in local media. People dont die on trail without being noticed and cause determined.
    Ever.
    Differentuation was made between hiker and thru hiker here. A few hikers have fallen , frozen, drowned, heart attack, falling treest lughtnungl etc. Still not numbers that eclipse murders, similar magnitude. But these werent thru hikers to my knowledge. You have cited death of hikers
    Not thruhikers.
    The first through hiker was 70 years ago. Are you saying that you would have heard about all deaths, from all causes, in the 70 years of thru hikers, and could provide statistics on causes of deaths? Not even the ATC attempts to keep a comprehensive list of deaths and injuries. The following is a quote from the first link in post #30:

    “....Although the ATC does not keep comprehensive records of deaths or injuries that occur on the trail, since it passes through so many local, state and federal jurisdictions, Sommerville said deaths from other weather-related causes such as lightning and hypothermia are more common.....”

    If you can provide documented statistics about number and causes of death on the Appalachian Trail I would be most interested in seeing it, regardless of whether it is for thru hikers only, or all hikers.

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    You act like 70 yrs is a long time.
    Its not.

    Individuals like Doyle have been closely associated with it for about 47 yrs and still going.

    And there were few thru hikers prior to that time.

    Trail maintaining clubs are knowledgeable of everything that has happened on their sections. Its not a black hole no one knows about.
    Just because no one keeps inclusive formal records, doesnt mean anecdotal is seriously in error. It just means theres no value in maintaining those records.

    Non thru-hikers could slip through the cracks pretty easy,
    But thru hikers have other friends on the trail and they notice and word gets around when somebody dies. Just as sure as if a student died at a school, everybody at that school will know it.

    Sociologists have term this grapevine affect the chain of attachment between people. And it' can be as short at 6 people between any two strangers in the United States. This is why news spread so fast and effectively.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 12-20-2018 at 18:19.

  15. #35
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    There are one or two hikers who remain missing, and there have been other homicides of those hiking on the AT, although they weren't thru-hikers...



    there's at least one missing hiker (not determined to be a thru or section or day------speculation is suicide though) that started out at newfound gap and has never been found....


    derek lueking is his name....


    he bought a bunch of camping/hiking gear and told people not to look for him and left newfound gap.............

    his car was up there, but he has never been found.....

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    You act like 70 yrs is a long time.
    Its not.

    Individuals like Doyle have been closely associated with it for about 47 yrs and still going.

    And there were few thru hikers prior to that time.

    Trail maintaining clubs are knowledgeable of everything that has happened on their sections. Its not a black hole no one knows about.
    Just because no one keeps inclusive formal records, doesnt mean anecdotal is seriously in error. It just means theres no value in maintaining those records.
    My experience as an engineer is that anecdotal information is often seriously in error. I don’t doubt that if one dug deep enough one could dig up most, but probably not all, records on deaths on the AT, but so far I haven’t seen any info to indicate that has been done by anyone. Seventy years is a long time, when you consider that a lot of paper records more than 20 to 30 years old were never put into easily searchable electronic format. So your statements about the most significant causes of death on the trail are just your opinion, based on anecdotal evidence, which you have chosen not to, or cannot, verify.

  17. #37
    ME => GA 19AT3 rickb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gpburdelljr View Post
    The first through hiker was 70 years ago. Are you saying that you would have heard about all deaths, from all causes, in the 70 years of thru hikers, and could provide statistics on causes of deaths?
    Some incident could certainly be missed — especially those that occurred in the early years of thru hiking. No doubt I have missed a few.

    But keep in mind that most thru hikes were completed in the age of ALDHA and the the Internet.

    Some time back I calculate that I was among the first 1000 people to register a thru hike, which probably meant I was among the first 5000 to attempt one. That was in 1983.

    As of this year about 20,000 people have completed the Trail and about 100,000 have attempted one. The death of a thru hiker - especially in the Information Age - does not go unnoticed.

    Its perfectly OK to conclude I am wrong on certain specifics, but consider the possibility of a larger truth on this.
    Last edited by rickb; 12-20-2018 at 19:30.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seatbelt View Post
    I would be surprised if the drowning victim total is not higher. Did you include the 2 guys who drowned in Laurel Falls (Hampton) in 2013? They were attempting a thru hike.
    I did not.

    Are you sure they were thru hikers?

    Google told me that a 42 year old man and his 15 year old son drowned their in 2012. Could those be the guys you are talking about? This article said they had been hiking for less than 2 weeks.

    https://www.johnsoncitypress.com/Loc...m-Laurel-Falls

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post

    Its perfectly OK to conclude I am wrong on certain specifics, but consider the possibility of a larger truth on this.
    The larger truth is that you have provided no data to back up your assertions, therefore all the specifics must be questioned. If you have a data source supporting your assertions, then please let us know what it is.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uriah View Post
    I'm not sure what "lightening" is, but I do believe lightening one's load will actually help preserve one's life. Anyway, I believe there have been seven murders of thru-hikers:
    2011: SCOTT LILLY, a hiker from South Bend, Indiana, who died from "asphyxia by suffocation" on the AT on August 12, 2011, near Cow Head Gap Virginia. His murder remains unsolved.
    1990: MOLLY LaRUE and GEOFF HOOD were found murdered in the Thema Marks Shelter just outside Duncannon, PA. Geoff had been shot and killed; Molly had been raped, tortured and killed. Paul David Crews, a troubled, troublesome loner who continued hiking the trail, was tracked down eight days later and arrested while wearing some of Hood's gear. He was convicted and sentenced to death by lethal injection. He's still alive today, alas, but remains in prison. The shelter has been removed, replaced and renamed.
    1981: ROBERT MOUNTFORD JR. an LAURA SUSAN RAMSAY.
    1975: Paul Bigley murdered twenty-two year-old Green Bay, WI native JANICE BALZA with a hatchet at the Vandeventer Shelter in Tennessee, near the Watuga Dam. Balza was hoping the hike the whole trail. Bigley wanted the backpack she was carrying. He died in prison.
    1974: JOEL POLSON, twenty-six year-old from South Carolina, was killed at a shelter in Georgia by Michigan fugitive Ralph Fox, who continued to walk south and then caught a bus to Atlanta, where he was arrested. This is the first recorded AT murder.

    There are one or two hikers who remain missing, and there have been other homicides of those hiking on the AT, although they weren't thru-hikers...
    2008: Meredith Emerson. A sad story. Google tells a lot.
    2001: Louise Chaput, a fifty-two year-old Canadian, was stabbed to death in the White Mountains, NH. She was found near the Glen Boulder Trailhead, just south of the Appalachian Mountain Club's Pinkham Notch Headquarters. Her murder remains unsolved.
    1996: Julie Williams and Lollie Winans were both discovered with their throats cut in Shenandoah National Park. Darrell David Rice was indicted for the crime in 2002, while serving time in prison for another attempted abduction.
    1988: Rebecca Wight and Claudia Brenner were making love in the woods in a Pennsylvania State Park while hiking the trail. Stephen Roy Carr shot the women eight times. Brenner was injured but managed to escape. Wright died at the scene. Carr was incarcerated.
    Not to nit pick but the story said they hiked to Unicoi Gap after they left the Low Gap shelter. That would have them travelling North not South.
    This story was especially interesting to me for several reasons. One, both Hartsville and Sumter are approximately an hour away from my home. Second, I too spent a semester at The University of South Carolina before going on to try other things. Third, I've shopped at The Backpacker numerous times. Fourth, about 4 years ago while spending the night at Low Gap I lay awake for hours texting my soon to be bride totally unaware that this incident had happened there. And lastly, shortly after marrying my wife we took a vacation to Helen and visited Cleveland a few times. Kind of feels like I have a connection to the story. Just feels strange having been in all of those places a number of times.
    I may never get to thru hike but I'll never get through hiking.

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