Ignoring the Shelters

[Gambit McCrae]

I just replied to littlerocks yellow springs thread about ignoring shelter sites which got me to thinking. A lot of folks wish the shelters were not there. But they are and always will be.

So on both my LDH's this year, I more or less excluded the shelters as nightly stops and chose camp sites that made sense with my day. The end result was more MPD, less annoyance of the cliental at shelters and overall I had a real great experience with that mentality. I would make sure that before I stopped I would have both smart water bottles filled up, and as well I carried a 2 liter sawyer bladder so I could fill that up if water was a couple miles prior to the tent site and then I had a full refill for the AM before leaving camp.

I also am now on the mindset of - If I am carrying this tent I am gunna use it every chance that I legally can. Which is another reason for the above mentality.

I know from personal experience that people use the shelter sites out of fear. Knowing that they probably will not be alone, there will be water there, whatever reason. But if people can break from that and dry camp, or use tenting sites - it may benefit them.

Thoughts? Can others relate?

[BradMT]

I think shelters are great... they concentrate overuse to centralized spots, helping keep impact elsewhere to a minimum. Shelters are also part of the culture and history of the AT, and what helps make it unique.

Having said that, I haven't walked on the AT since 1980.

When my partner and I did a 2.5 mo's walk on the AT in the summer of 1977 (I turned 16 that summer), the shelters were used, and some well used, but I can imagine nothing like today...

[Hatchet_1697]

I do both, but my guiding principle is to camp close to a good water source since I can go through 2-3L in camp cooking, resupplying, and rehydrating. Filtering in parallel to setting up camp is just plain efficient. I’ve slept in a shelter once or twice, prefer my hammock, but have used shelters to get protection from storms with high winds.

My cousin enjoys the social aspect of shelters, you meet some interesting folks there, but his son hates them and prefers a campsite away from people. I see both points of view. Shelters are trail civilization that usually have a privy, bear box/pole/cables, and water source; they also are a good place to get news and updates. Backcountry camping is peaceful and more of a wilderness experience.

I have never had an issue backcountry camping, but have had annoyances at shelters. Night hikers talking loudly with headlamps at full power, trash, overcrowding, weird drunk guy from Philly using the AT to hide from a motorcycle gang he wronged (great shelter story btw).

Bottom line is I set my daily miles goal to stop at a water source close to a shelter, campsite, or reasonable stealth site. I’m good with any of these.


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[MisterQ]

Mid-day, the picnic tables at the shelters are a nice opportunity to sit, organize and maybe cook a meal. I agree there is no reason to be tied to a shelter as the end point of the day, but often the shelters offer nice tenting areas a short distance away from the shelter. If convenient, I use them. Otherwise there are usually many other places to pitch a tent.

[Slugg]

I pick my goal for the next day before I go to sleep at night. If that happens to line up with a shelter, great, but if not I'm perfectly content at just an established campsite. For example, last Winter when I hiked the AL section of the Pinhoti Trail I passed shelters every single day (I think) but only slept in one once, on the last night. On an AT section hike this past summer I stayed in them all 3 nights. Just happened to line up with my mileage goals.

I will cut my mileage short to stop at a shelter if it's going to storm, though. I don't mind hiking in the rain but I want my gear to at least be dry inside my pack.

[Christoph]

Slugg - this is exactly what I do. I plan ahead a little each night so I know what I'm in for the next day (water, camping, etc). I'm ok at shelters sometimes but I like my good ole' $40 Ebay tent too much. It is nice to stow my bag in the shelter when it's raining but sometimes I still set up my tent, then retrieve it for a nice wet (and sometimes cold) pillow.

[Crushed Grapes]

I'm in line with many of the previous replies. I've never stayed in one, but I'll camp near one if that is how my mileage/water needs are. Not to say I'll never stay in a shelter, I'm sure I will on my thru attempt next year, but I prefer the confines of my tent.

Honestly I think more hikers should stay in shelters, means more good campsites for me

[MuddyWaters]

Ill stay in them occassionally if only 1 or 2 others are there and weve been having enjoyable conversation. Or if it's raining or such.

If there's a few people and there's tent pads that are a scattered in woods aways away that are quiet I'll take the tent pads every time.

I can't imagine anyone wanting to deal with other people's noises or mice all the time.

But for 900 of last 1000 miles i hiked, there were no shelters. I slept in two shelters in Shenandoah two years ago on a fall leaf peeping walk. Last shelters i was in. One I had to myself, and one I was thought I did until somebody else showed up at 11 p.m.


And the lack of shelters on other trails certainly were not missed. People still congregate in good locations. People still talk and hang out with people they like. And arent forced to hang out with people they don't like.

Absolutely no one has ever said , "man this X trail would be better if it had some shelters like the AT".

And there's less people that really are not suited for being out there. It seems.

[Hikingjim]

I like the shelters in quiet areas. A few people who are actual hikers is fine
But if they're packed and easily accessible, I'll avoid. Stayed at a couple with people carrying on at night, washing their underwear in the water source, etc....

[stephanD]

Why would folks wish the shelters were not there? Nobody is forced to sleep in a shelter. Shelters are a great place to socialize, make (legal) fire, get water, exchange information (shelter log). most shelters have great tent sites, bear box/poles/cables to hang the food bag and a table to eat. As you age, you appreciate those things (especially the picnic table) more and more. Also, shelters provide safety (assuming the guy next to you is not a serial killer).

[Slugg]

Why would folks wish the shelters were not there? Nobody is forced to sleep in a shelter. Shelters are a great place to socialize, make (legal) fire, get water, exchange information (shelter log). most shelters have great tent sites, bear box/poles/cables to hang the food bag and a table to eat. As you age, you appreciate those things (especially the picnic table) more and more. Also, shelters provide safety (assuming the guy next to you is not a serial killer).

I don't think many people have a problem with shelters inherently and appreciate what they offer, it's just that the presence of shelters attracts more people to the trail than would otherwise be there. People (myself included) don't like that side-effect of them.

[Gambit McCrae]

Why would folks wish the shelters were not there? Nobody is forced to sleep in a shelter. Shelters are a great place to socialize, make (legal) fire, get water, exchange information (shelter log). most shelters have great tent sites, bear box/poles/cables to hang the food bag and a table to eat. As you age, you appreciate those things (especially the picnic table) more and more. Also, shelters provide safety (assuming the guy next to you is not a serial killer).

Pretty sure as most hikers age they want more and more peace n' quiet.
I have learned very little from campfire talk. Mostly a bunch of he said she said, lies, toppers, drunken stoopers. Very little useful information.
I am already completely safe in the woods, I don't need a wooden box to increase my safety.
If the wood box was not there, there would be more space for me to put my tent.
I sleep with my food. No need for me to put it in a box so a hiker bum can take it during the night.

I do enjoy a good picnic table.

[MuddyWaters]

Also, shelters provide safety (assuming the guy next to you is not a serial killer).

At least 4 of 11 people murdered on AT were killed at shelters.

Just sayin.

Shelters attract people.
Bad people too.

Groups of people provide safety.....not shelters per se.

[Gambit McCrae]

At least 4 of 11 people murdered on AT were killed at shelters.

Just sayin.

Shelters attract people.
Bad people too.

Well this may be one of my favorite replies of the year muddy LOL

[Studlintsean]

I pick my goal for the next day before I go to sleep at night. If that happens to line up with a shelter, great, but if not I'm perfectly content at just an established campsite. For example, last Winter when I hiked the AL section of the Pinhoti Trail I passed shelters every single day (I think) but only slept in one once, on the last night. On an AT section hike this past summer I stayed in them all 3 nights. Just happened to line up with my mileage goals.

I will cut my mileage short to stop at a shelter if it's going to storm, though. I don't mind hiking in the rain but I want my gear to at least be dry inside my pack.

Same here but I am usually so excited about a trip that I have my planned stops figured out months ahead of time

[HooKooDooKu]

Why would folks wish the shelters were not there? Nobody is forced to sleep in a shelter. Shelters are a great place to socialize, make (legal) fire, get water, exchange information (shelter log). most shelters have great tent sites, bear box/poles/cables to hang the food bag and a table to eat. As you age, you appreciate those things (especially the picnic table) more and more. Also, shelters provide safety (assuming the guy next to you is not a serial killer).

I don't think many people have a problem with shelters inherently and appreciate what they offer, it's just that the presence of shelters attracts more people to the trail than would otherwise be there. People (myself included) don't like that side-effect of them.

It's more than just attracting more people. It's also the typical problems that tend to occur at places where people frequently congregate... such as issues with mice and bears. (Of course such 'problems' are not unique to shelters but also at popular camp sites as well).

[Just Bill]

I just replied to littlerocks yellow springs thread about ignoring shelter sites which got me to thinking. A lot of folks wish the shelters were not there. But they are and always will be.

So on both my LDH's this year, I more or less excluded the shelters as nightly stops and chose camp sites that made sense with my day. The end result was more MPD, less annoyance of the cliental at shelters and overall I had a real great experience with that mentality. I would make sure that before I stopped I would have both smart water bottles filled up, and as well I carried a 2 liter sawyer bladder so I could fill that up if water was a couple miles prior to the tent site and then I had a full refill for the AM before leaving camp.

I also am now on the mindset of - If I am carrying this tent I am gunna use it every chance that I legally can. Which is another reason for the above mentality.

I know from personal experience that people use the shelter sites out of fear. Knowing that they probably will not be alone, there will be water there, whatever reason. But if people can break from that and dry camp, or use tenting sites - it may benefit them.

Thoughts? Can others relate?

Many of the folks who proclaim they wish the shelters were gone also (more or less) wish the trail itself was different. If nobody was on the trail (or much beyond the road crossings) as it used to be... most of those folks would once again fondly remember the shelters. Memories are funny things that way.

As a midwestern hiker who was both dumbfounded and fascinated with this whole shelter idea when I first hiked on the AT... I think they are amazing. I didn't grow up with them and found the journals, 'take a book/leave a book library', and occasional chance to share a fire with fellow hikers pretty cool. And I don't care what the garumphs have to say on the subject... When it's been raining all damn day and you can come across a solid roof with a bench to sit on I have yet to meet someone who is thrilled to pass it up and stand in the rain. Simple fact is they come in darn handy from time to time even if you are 'old school' in accepting the simple fact that you should never rely on one.

Simple fact as well that concentrated sites are an effective way to manage crowded places. Dispersed camping only works if it actually remains dispersed/seldom used and the AT sees a high enough volume of hikers that the concept isn't going away. So imagine a concentrated camping location (with water source, privy, firepit, tent pads or sites) but without the shelter itself. Usually the few spots that naturally develop in such a manner are considered eye-sores at best, and flat out dumps at worst. The shelter serves as that high traffic hub and central point for gathering and provides a fairly durable means to do so. If we scrapped them you'd likely find that land managers would increase camping restrictions and more or less relegate folks to using the designated sites (now shelter free) regardless.

Many forget that a large reason the generally lax and loose stealth camping opportunities exist is because most folks use the shelters. Many also forget that it takes a decent bit of skill to stealth camp properly with little or no impact and that you really don't want just anyone to do it.

Which brings us back to you; things are changing.
Several seasons on this site, several good sections under your hipbelt, a decent bit of miles on yer shoes and a modicum of sense atween yer ears.

Fear, uncertainty, inexperience, or just plain being sociable... there are lots of reasons that shelters are a good place for those getting started. And even a good way for them to get started.
I'd rather see someone out there than at home.... though there are plenty who would rather not see them at all and think the shelter is a crutch for those who don't belong.

Either way... many places require permits, designated sites, and have many restrictions. Most of then vastly more restrictive than the AT. You want less folks... a multi year permit process will fix that up. You want to continue to just show up with no notice, permission, or fees... expect a few others to do the same.
The AT is a pretty free place, but folks do tend to check the Awol guide (or an app) and tie themselves into the various 'points of interest' neatly laid out. Not everyone has camped in places where you are allowed to select a site of your own. For many site selection means driving around the state park until you find a winner. It takes some time to mentally get over that point to point style of hiking, and to acquire the various skills and confidence to do so.

As you get older you may find that a night alone is more fun than a night with a bunch of 20 somethings you don't relate well to.
Or you may be the 30 year old with a bit of whiskey to share, a fire to build and find the shelter filled with 65 year olds in bed by 7pm.
The legendary diversity of the trail crowd goes both ways... and it ain't always the youts who occupy the shelter with a sense of entitlement. Or local yocals who are parting like they never heard o' this byackyackin thing.

I still find them pretty fascinating regardless. Though I find a nice balance of evolving style, convenience, low impact, and social interaction is the dinner stop.
Look at the shelters like any other scenic overlook or bubbling brook you may pass on the trail and keep your schedule open to it all.
Nobody really plans to 'watch sunset on scenic overlook so and so at mile xxx.x'... but when you pass by and the timing is right on a clear day you do so.

Stopping into a shelter around evening is a nice opportunity to share a meal, keep food smells at concentrated camps, do a bit of clean up, organize yer pack for a potentially wet camp and generally see all the trail has to offer you. It is also an excellent way to vastly reduce your impact when stealth camping as all your high impact tasks can be completed at the spot they've been designated to be completed at long before you arrive at your sleeping place. Course the idea of a 'camping place' and a 'sleeping place' takes some thunking of the ol knoggin too. So stop in the shelter you pass and let spontaneity be your guide.
If'n it turns out there's an Ol' Man spinnin yarns and a tricky feller who enjoy a nip a whiskey... then you take a pull and park. If not... you just continue on yer way.
Sometimes it's nice to just stop by, check on the kids. Hard to say at times why it is the trail put you there. Sometimes there may be a job to do, other times yer job may be to mind yer own business. Get taught a little something, or leave them a fire burning to spin their own tales around too.

The only limitations brought on by the shelter system are self-imposed.
It's a fine day when you realize that this hiking thing isn't so much series of strolls from point to point to form a section so much as a continuous line of open ended choices followed by footprints.

Pat yerself on the back fer recognizing that, walking on and expanding your options.

Many of those who cry about shelters are folks who haven't hiked without them.
Or those who choose to ferget that they started someplace too.
Perhaps the only reason the shelter is so crowded is because when it was their time to move on and camp elsewhere; the garumphs refused to. Sometimes it's hard to you're the folks who don't belong when you're busy complaining about the folks who don't belong.

It's a big world out there and lots of places to go... even some trails that don't have a single shelter.
And even some woods that don't have a trail at all.

One step at a time though fella.

[Emerson Bigills]

Shelters provide a nice option for those that wish to partake. It's yet another facet of HYOH. The advantages typically are water, protection from the rain for sleep and eating, socialization with other hikers, sometimes a picnic table, less work to set up and break camp. The down sides are often mice, other varmints, noisy sleepers, annoying chatterboxes, garbage, lack of solitude, close quarters with people you don't get to choose, occasionally sketchy characters. Some shelters are awesome and a treat to stay in, others are absolute dumps and no one should stay there.

In the last 12 years, I have spent about 140 nights out on the AT and would guess that 3/4 of those have been in various shelters. I could count on one hand the experiences that I would consider negative. Most folks are very pleasant out on the trails and on pretty good behavior. There are a few that don't leave their bad "civilization" manners at home. I sleep pretty soundly after a tough day of hiking and typically have no problem getting at least 6 hours of solid sleep in a shelter. I am also a bit lazy and will forgo the work of tenting on most occasions.

I look at shelters as a personal preference, like many of the other choices backpackers make. Some of my best memories of the AT were fellowship at a shelter site.

[rickb]

At least 4 of 11 people murdered on AT were killed at shelters.

If you are talking about the 7 individuals killed on the AT proper, at least 6 of them were killed at shelters.

Molly LaRue, 25, from Shaker Heights, Ohio
Geoffrey Hood, 26, from Signal Mountain, Tennessee
Susan Ramsey, 27 from Ellsworth Maine
Robert Mountford, 27, from Ellsworth, Maine
Janice Balza, 22, from Madison, Wisconsin
Joel Polsom, 26, of Hartsville, South Carolina

The exact location of the killing of 7th individual, Scott Lilly, has not been published, though his body was found not far from one.

Other murders have been associated with the AT (bring the total to 11) but none of those were on the Trail itself. However in one of those crimes, one of the victims and her partner had an uncomfortable run in with the killer at an AT shelter.

One common thread to each murder at a shelter is that they occurred at time well outside of the busy season and the bubble of thru hikers. Another commonality is that all (or most, not sure about Joel Polsom) were AT thru hikers or in one case, a long-distance section hiker

[GaryM]

Shelters have their place. I understand the fear factor and I understand humans are somewhat of a herd animal. Privies are nice and having shelters by water supplies are a good idea too. As for me I am a hammock camper, can't sleep on the ground or even a pad so I have to hang (severe sleep apnea, my snoring scares away the bears) I am about 50/50 for sleeping around shelters, I am perfectly happy finding two good trees anywhere. Slept warm and dry through a few storms this way too.
Any weather bad enough to mess with me in my hammock and I will just hike on out.
I will be entering GSMNP soon enough, have no idea how I will handle that.