Another insulating layer thread

[MattSin97]

Hey y'all, in the market for an insulating layer. I have been scouring the internet and I am overwhelmed by the whole process. I still have several months till I depart (March 19th), but I am trying to budget and get and test out gear beforehand. So here is the deal, I have it narrowed down to 3 choices, however, I am open to suggestions.

1) Mountain Hardware Super/SD stretchdown hooded: this is the only jacket I have been able to try on out of the three so far, I immediately liked the fit and feel of the jacket, but I haven't read much about the 2018 version and am a bit worried about warmth. Weight is not a deal breaker, although it is considerably heavy.

https://www.rei.com/product/136797/m...ed-jacket-mens

2) Rab Microlight Alpine hooded: I have heard good things about Rab (outdoorgearlab.com) and other reviews and it seems like a solid buy, but I haven't been able to get my hands on one and actually see how it feels.

https://www.rei.com/product/137621/r...wn-jacket-mens

3) Montbell Alpine Light Down Parka: I've heard good things all around about Montbell products, but like the Rab, I haven't been able to test it out.

https://www.montbell.us/products/dis...01261&gen_cd=1

My main considerations are warmth, durability, and price.

This jacket will be used for an AT thru-hike.

Additionally, I do have an REI gift-card ($100) which would make the Mountain Hardware & Rab 100 dollars cheaper than usual.

Any recommendations or general input is welcome, thanks!

[OwenM]

Of those 3, I think the Alpine Light Down Parka is the clear winner. It's the lightest and least expensive while still being fully featured, plus should be at least as warm as the others.
4.8oz 800 fill vs 5oz 750 fill for the Rab. Don't know the fill weight on the MH one, but from the pics, it has noticeably less loft.
I hate the "I use it, so automatically recommend it to everyone" crap so often seen on the internet, but I do have that jacket, and like it very much.
Don't know how warm or cold natured you are, or how much insulation you need for a given temp, but IIRC, the clo numbers say mine should keep the average person warm at 21F. My older version has .5oz less down than the current one, so it may be a bit warmer.

[OwenM]

Be sure to check Montbell's Closeout page when looking at their stuff. It's been a few years, but I think my Alpine Down Light Parka was $169 from there.

[soumodeler]

I have the Montbell and love it. Bought mine over 4 years ago and it has held up very well. Warm, packs down small, and fairly light.

[egilbe]

For a puffy layer that you will rarely wear, weight and warmth are your primary considerations. Durability on ultralight gear is pretty suspect. Lightweight gear is fragile. You have to take care of it. You want to get a lightweight puffy because you will be carrying it, not wearing it...unless you are at camp, then you will be quickly eating and climbing into bed to sleep.

[MattSin97]

They say you pack your fears, and I am highly considering warmth in this category. I run cold, and this jacket will likely be part of my sleep system as well. Thank you for the replies thus far everyone. I was hoping Montbell was going to have a Black Friday deal but it never came, do they ever have deals besides the close out?

[CalebJ]

If you are planning to sleep in it, I would very seriously consider a synthetic option instead. Have you looked at the Patagonia Nano Air or North Face Ventrix? Both will dry significantly better than a down parka as well as performing better when damp with perspiration.

[Feral Bill]

For an in camp layer you would want something truly warm. Less nano and more puff. The Montbell would give you that. Tho wear when hiking, I'd suggest a fleece or nice wool sweater. Really, in likely wintery weather, you need both.

[Venchka]

REI just sent another sale email for the rest of this week. You might find something.
Whatever you buy should be wind proof and sized to layer over fleece and or a good down vest.
I bought my wife and I LL Bean Down Sweaters on sale last spring. They were appreciated in Wyoming in May. At altitude. My wife wore hers all the time.
Good luck!
Wayne

[Dogwood]

Of those 3, I think the Alpine Light Down Parka is the clear winner. It's the lightest and least expensive while still being fully featured, plus should be at least as warm as the others.
4.8oz 800 fill vs 5oz 750 fill for the Rab. Don't know the fill weight on the MH one, but from the pics, it has noticeably less loft.
I hate the "I use it, so automatically recommend it to everyone" crap so often seen on the internet, but I do have that jacket, and like it very much.
Don't know how warm or cold natured you are, or how much insulation you need for a given temp, but IIRC, the clo numbers say mine should keep the average person warm at 21F. My older version has .5oz less down than the current one, so it may be a bit warmer.

I'd assume since RAB is based in Europe and this is marketed largely to that region they use the EU(Lorch) FP testing standards. The U.S. FP rating system ranks higher. The typical thought is add 50- 70 FP to the EU FP rating so the comparison should be thought 4.8 oz 800 FP to 5 oz 800-810 or so FP.

[Dogwood]

For a puffy layer that you will rarely wear, weight and warmth are...considerations. Durability on ultralight gear is pretty suspect. Lightweight gear is fragile. You have to take care of it. You want to get a lightweight puffy because you will be carrying it, not wearing it...unless you are at camp, then you will be quickly eating and climbing into bed to sleep.

I agree. You'll mostly be carrying any of these pieces not wearing them while hiking. You'll get in camp and at probably longer rest stop usage for about a month to 6 wks and then they all will be excessively warm and "heavy."

As far as durability the AT environment is not that abrasive so with a modicum of TLC you could do fine with less durable light wt jackets. These are all heavier Alpine versions for more abrasive demanding colder conditions.

1) I can understand the comfort. It's designed for alpining/mountaineering on the move use and often worn when sleeping and in camp wear. Again, great for those activities but not so much for backpacking the AT IMO with a March 19 start date. I do like the QShield for those sloppy AT NOBO starting conditions if you're intent on down but it's also available in lighter wt MH down jackets. Many go with super popular MH Ghost Whisper but IMHO you can get something like it at a lower price pt without introducing many ozs into the equation.

2) I like the Pertex Microlight fabric. I have the RAB non Alpine Vest version from like 2008. It still beads. I wear it in mist, fog, light drizzle, and maybe sleet as an outer piece for hrs without major loft collapse when backpacking on the move in cold weather.

3) Loved this jacket but went a different way for backpacking in slop. I'm very good at thermoregulation and layering but it was too warm even when fully vented to backpack in in nothing else but the coldest more dryer higher elev weather.


I've said this many times but I'll say it here for you again. What jacket IF any you take with your Mar 19 start date depends on your layering system approach (3 verse maybe 4 layers), how well you accessorize(hat(s), gloves, socks, even shoes) - they all play into warmth NOT just a jacket, what's on your bottom half, how well you thermoregulate, how much wt, bulk and cost are you willing to carry in often under utilized apparel, if you plan on actually being a mover(a hiker) for the majority of your thru-hike rather than spending more time stopped or in camp,...

As far as being part of your sleep system IMO you probably can go with a lighter jacket IF you bring other sleep system warmth adding techniques and gear into full play.

[MattSin97]

So far my layering system includes an REI midweight base layer, Patagonia R1 hoodie, and a marmot precip shell. My friend gave me his Kelty cosmic 20 sleeping bag, and I heard they run cold, which is why I'm a little concerned about my sleep system being warm enough and adding a warmer jacket to compensate.

[JC13]

MontBell Japan generally runs cheaper than the US site and I believe still ships free? Might be worth checking out.

[MattSin97]

I'm also open to any other jacket recommendations, I'm not 100% committed to these jackets exclusively.

[CalebJ]

MontBell Japan generally runs cheaper than the US site and I believe still ships free? Might be worth checking out.

There were a couple of threads on Mountain Project where guys compared down jackets from the Japan and US site. Apparently some of the products aren't the same despite sharing a name. Worth doing some checking on a particular product before going that route. As long as it's the same, though, the Japan site is clearly a bargain.

[Jayne]

Seeing as how you have an REI gift card already, I'd take a good look at the REI co-op puffy's. They're a pretty good value and you can often find them on sale. I don't like to hike in puffy's myself though: down + precipitation or sweating don't mix well. I prefer to carry a heavy weight marino wool sweater to hike in cold weather even though it is a bit heavier. If I'm in camp and I get cold I just crawl under my quilt.

[MattSin97]

Seeing as how you have an REI gift card already, I'd take a good look at the REI co-op puffy's. They're a pretty good value and you can often find them on sale. I don't like to hike in puffy's myself though: down + precipitation or sweating don't mix well. I prefer to carry a heavy weight marino wool sweater to hike in cold weather even though it is a bit heavier. If I'm in camp and I get cold I just crawl under my quilt.

I won't be using it to hike in, just for camp and possibly as part of my sleep system for added warmth. I tried on the REI magma 850, but the fit was a bit awkward. I wish I was able to try on the Rab and/or montbell to compare but they never have them in stores near me so it's hard to compare.

[Dogwood]

So far my layering system includes an REI midweight base layer, Patagonia R1 hoodie, and a marmot precip shell. My friend gave me his Kelty cosmic 20 sleeping bag, and I heard they run cold, which is why I'm a little concerned about my sleep system being warm enough and adding a warmer jacket to compensate.

Having that REI mid wt with a deep 1/4 -1/2 chest zip adds greater ventability than a not zip med base layer.

The Pat R1 Hoody/Anorak is a nice piece. I bet you wind up hiking mostly in these two layers with the Mar PreCip standing by for additional core warmth decreasing convective heat loss. I'm so glad you din't say PreCip rain jacket as that implies only being used when it's raining. Even if it's not raining but cooler and /or windy add it into the layering mix making sure to thermoregulate/not overheat by venting and going at a more moderate pace. IMO we tend to think of only insulating pieces as the primary or sole warmth provider. Warmth doesn't have to be approached that way in a largely one shot heavier insulating core piece.

I'm glad you gave some greater detail. Those are three decent pieces for your hike to work from that offer on the move and in camp diversity for your Mar-late Apr conditions. It all the more means to me you could do best by a lighter jacket. That would give 4 decent torso pieces with different combinations.

Again, accessorizing well plays into greater flexibility in layering offering greater overall warmth. A lot of heat goes out through hands, head, and feet combined with the core.

I agree with your friend. IMHO too the Kelty Cosmic 20* runs cold. But if you have some light-mid wt synthetic or merino bottoms they might see use both when hiking and as part of your sleep system's warmth. There is no rule that says you can't use dry apparel you hike in also as part of your sleep system's warmth. Heck sleep in the dry R1 and PreCip and pants if it's available dry. Put the hoods up. Sleep wearing gloves and dry socks. Heck, if I was in a lean-to I'd use my shelter un set up as apparel or an additional layer. I might add in a 4 oz polyester or silk liner and aluminized mylar emergency "blanket"(underneath) for reflective warmth and greater sleep system warmth. AND, I'd use both draped over me on the coldest days as additional pseudo apparel...if only for 5 wks or so. There are an doodle of ways and techniques beyond just a heavy puffy that adds to a sleep system's warmth built around a conventional sleeping bag.

[MattSin97]

Having that REI mid wt with a deep 1/4 -1/2 chest zip adds greater ventability than a not zip med base layer.

The Pat R1 Hoody/Anorak is a nice piece. I bet you wind up hiking mostly in these two layers with the Mar PreCip standing by for additional core warmth decreasing convective heat loss. I'm so glad you din't say PreCip rain jacket as that implies only being used when it's raining. Even if it's not raining but cooler and /or windy add it into the layering mix making sure to thermoregulate/not overheat by venting and going at a more moderate pace. IMO we tend to think of only insulating pieces as the primary or sole warmth provider. Warmth doesn't have to be approached that way in a largely one shot heavier insulating core piece.

I'm glad you gave some greater detail. Those are three decent pieces for your hike to work from that offer on the move and in camp diversity for your Mar-late Apr conditions. It all the more means to me you could do best by a lighter jacket. That would give 4 decent torso pieces with different combinations.

Again, accessorizing well plays into greater flexibility in layering offering greater overall warmth. A lot of heat goes out through hands, head, and feet combined with the core.

I agree with your friend. IMHO too the Kelty Cosmic 20* runs cold. But if you have some light-mid wt synthetic or merino bottoms they might see use both when hiking and as part of your sleep system's warmth. There is no rule that says you can't use dry apparel you hike in also as part of your sleep system's warmth. Heck sleep in the dry R1 and PreCip and pants if it's available dry. Put the hoods up. Sleep wearing gloves and dry socks. Heck, if I was in a lean-to I'd use my shelter un set up as apparel or an additional layer. I might add in a 4 oz polyester or silk liner and aluminized mylar emergency "blanket"(underneath) for reflective warmth and greater sleep system warmth. AND, I'd use both draped over me on the coldest days as additional pseudo apparel...if only for 5 wks or so. There are an doodle of ways and techniques beyond just a heavy puffy that adds to a sleep system's warmth built around a conventional sleeping bag.

Thanks for all the great info, I really appreciate it. I was able to get the REI mid-weight base layer with a 1/4 zip. I was also looking into some mid weight bottoms, but I'm not sure which way I will go with those yet (Patagonia capilene?). Would there be any specific jackets out there I should have in my sights?

[Dogwood]

What are you anticipating starting with for your bottom half? FWIW, if I was starting on Mar 19 I'd have pants or convertibles and UL rain pants. Under that lower half scenario and even though I too push the temp of my sleep system with wearing bottoms I don't go very heavy on the bottoms. I have Pat Capilene 1 and 2 long bottoms but perhaps the less expensive versions I have work just as well(Hot Chillys, EMS)

Unless you want to start a jackets collection like some of us consider a broader spectrum of environments of usage than just the AT. It helps justifying the cost. That includes being worn when not hiking at home, around town, going to work, etc.

I will not get into a synthetic verse down debate but if you might be using a jacket in potentially wetter conditions(Pacific NW, AT spring starting NOBOs, etc) synthetic has made strides in closing the gap in performance virtues compared to down. In LD serial hiking meetings one piece I see so often is a low bulk light to UL synthetic jacket. It brings a lot of versatility to the table.


Understand I come from an UL philosophy apparel approach. I want diversity, low bulk, usage of all the torso pieces as often as possible and prefer 4 layering torso than 3 layer when its cold and mixed(sloppy) conditions. I'm also a consistent moderately paced mover without long stops or many stops. My day is spent moving so I'm consistently generating warmth. When stopping for the night I'm typically in my bag/quilt in 20 mins or less. Multi use non redundancy in the kit is embraced. This plays into apparel needs. This may not be your approach. So, I'm only offering these ideas for you to be exposed to them. I'm not trying to sell you on what I do or the gear I choose. Don't take from anything I said that somehow you're doing it "wrong."

However, I do surmise you'd receive greater potential usage if you went with a lighter wt non bulky jacket in a 4 layer torso approach without having to embrace hardcore UL philosophy. What Neo LD backpackers eventually realize is that excess unnecessary wt carried can have an impact.