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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slo-go'en View Post
    It would be worth having both. If you need the extra layer while hiking, it should be the fleece. The down puffy is for camp. A fleece vest and rain jacket would do. If your hiking steady, you generally don't need to wear much. But when slogging through a wet snow storm or sleet, that fleece layer is big help.
    For the vast majority of AT NOBO's with an early March start date that's solid advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tipi Walter View Post
    This is not strickly true as a down puffy jacket can and should be worn when backpacking if the temps are low enough. I remember last winter when I was coming off a 5,300 foot mountain with my buddy Patman and he had to wear his down puffy jacket because it was about 10F with a butt-destroying wind. Here's a pic.
    Plus when it's really cold you can wear all your top warmth layers and slap on the gtx rain jacket to cut the wind and contain the warmth---as I did in this pic.
    Tipi, Slo-go-en said " if you're steadily hiking." You need all that stuff and bulk not just because the temp and wind but because you and Patman don't hike steadily! We also tend to cool on descents.

    Again, it's also about your approach to backpacking that plays a role in warmth and temp control comfort.

    What I saw as solid advice Tipi is that you're mindful of layering a "rain jacket" to cut wind and reduce convective heat loss making you warmer.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    Tipi, Slo-go-en said " if you're steadily hiking." You need all that stuff and bulk not just because the temp and wind but because you and Patman don't hike steadily! We also tend to cool on descents.
    Again, it's also about your approach to backpacking that plays a role in warmth and temp control comfort.
    You like reading into things which have no reality or facts to support them. I guess it supports your already-formed opinions so you feel more comfortable with them. How in Zeus's name would you know about Patman's daily backpacking habits?? He in fact does "hike steadily"---if that means anything to anyone. Plus, it was witch's teat cold on that mountain---just look at Patman's face.

    But according to you we needed all that clothing and bulk (of course it was butt cold) because we just don't hike steadily. Weird.

    What exactly defines "steadily"?? 12 hours of nonstop backpacking a day and no less? 5 hours? No reststops allowed, ever??? Does hiking 5 hours with a 90 lb pack count as steadily? Three hours?

    Can a person hike up a mountain with a heavy pack and not have to stop to remove layers? Or add layers coming down the mountain? Sweat management is something we all do in the winter if we have any sense. Regarding the picture, we may have removed layers two hours down the trail and got rid of all "that stuff and bulk"---but you could never know. How could you know?

    I think you said "you and Patman don't hike steadily" to marginalize our efforts and so any knowledge we gain from hiking is substandard, irrelevant and also marginal. This allows you to discount my posts and my experience---which for some reason is important to you.

  3. #23
    Registered User Venchka's Avatar
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    All the good advice here is ancient history if you spend time outdoors in high latitudes and/or high altitudes.
    The answer to the original question:
    Yes! Both! The weight of fleece and down jacket can be varied according to the season and geographic location. With a few odds and ends added to cover all exposed skin as needed.
    “The only stupid question is the one you don’t ask.”
    Wayne

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venchka View Post
    All the good advice here is ancient history if you spend time outdoors in high latitudes and/or high altitudes.
    The answer to the original question:
    Yes! Both! The weight of fleece and down jacket can be varied according to the season and geographic location. With a few odds and ends added to cover all exposed skin as needed.
    “The only stupid question is the one you don’t ask.”
    Wayne

    You're right about one thing---

    One time I mentioned how we generally never wear our down parkas and jackets when backpacking in the winter---as it's just too hot. And a mountaineer came on and refuted such a notion with his reference to climbing Denali in the winter---when he wore ALL HIS GOOSE DOWN ITEMS just to stay alive. So yes, there's always exceptions.

    His comment relevant to the Southeast and the AT? Well, maybe relevant to Maine and New Hampshire.

  5. #25

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    Fleece is my most used clothing item. If it dont come, a heavier long john top does. When temp drops its first on, last off when warm up

    Need both except in hottest conditions, like over 60f

    I would go for more down than ghost whisperer too in march.

    I rarely actually wear down puffy, but when needed, it nice to have. Usually while making dinner if it got cold. But 100 wt fleece hoody...wear constantly
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 11-19-2018 at 06:46.

  6. #26
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    the op did not ask about fleece weight, how heavy of fleece are we talking about taking in addition to 2 or 3 long sleeves and a puffy?

  7. #27

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    @Tipi

    Don't read things into comments I made I didn't communicate.


    I stand by every word in my last post.

    Do you suppose you think you know everyone I've ever met, read, or communicated?

    I'm not commenting on everything that you said. I'm tweaking, adding, but mostly agreeing.

    I do make a damn good effort at reading and considering in context every word. That doesn't mean I miss things or make errors or know all things or am not very open to having current opinions changed. I'm the first to admit this! How about you?

    Slo go en's post was not considered in it's terse entirety...just as you did with my last post.



    If I was interpreted as abrasive that was not intended.

    What defines hiking steadily (in context of staying warm). Hiking steadily to stay warm means not stopping long enough duration where one gets chilled.

    Dont you mean thermal management or "thermoregulation" rather than sweat management? They are not the same. From my perspective I'm attempting to best thermoregulate to proactively avoid sweating when its cold. I'm not looking so much to manage sweat I'm seeking to avoid it when it's so "witch's teet" cold. Do you agree that can be a good approach in cold weather? Do you agree how one approaches backpacking in the sense the OP is asking their questions plays a role in apparel layering and overall personal thermal comfort
    beyond gear?

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post

    What defines hiking steadily (in context of staying warm). Hiking steadily to stay warm means not stopping long enough duration where one gets chilled.
    I'm glad you got around to defining your term "steadily". I still can't figure out how you determined that Patman and I don't hike Steadily. Please explain.

    I don't know many winter backpackers who stop hiking long enough to get seriously chilled---except those hikers who pull out extra clothing and down jackets to compensate for long reststops in very cold temps. This isn't something I do because I don't like to unpack and pack up my pack every time I take a reststop---in fact many winter reststops are standing stops to catch my breath. If anything, I'll stop to remove excessive clothing when I get too hot---just the opposite of "chilled".

    And plus my down warmth items are usually buried deep inside my pack for protection from elements and therefore like my sleeping bag and sleeping pad aren't seen until I get to camp and unpack.

  9. #29

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    Fair enough.

    I'm not being abrasive, argumentative, condescending, or selling misperceptions of personal omniscience.

    I think what happens to many, I can still do it myself but currently less so, is that we start out overly dressed. We start to heat up. We start not paying proactive attention to things like pace, over exerting ourselves. This leads to having to stop and take off layers or sweating. It can interrupt a steady rhythmic movement and lead to chilling. Even short stops to do so - change or remove layers - can chill under cold blustery wet conditions. Just by the removal of backpacks it decreases conservation of warmth. Some thought is that if we're conscious of these aspects it can play a positive role in differing apparel and layering selections...and possibly hiking with less apparel needs.

    The prevailing thought is if we're accustomed to longer stops its nice to have that additional insulation. For myself I like to maintain a consistently steady long term moderate pace especially when it's cold. The goal is to not start overly dressed. For myself I'd rather steadily hike on the move slightly cool in cold weather and manage thermal comfort proactively on a micro scale without having to remove pack and consistently remove and put back on layers. I do it on the fly by opening zips, wrists cuffs, and removing a hood or taking off a beanie or Buff, taking off gloves, drinking water, noshing small snacks, and watching my pace. I don't have to spend as much time stopped and being exposed to chilling possibly needing an at rest apparel piece. These processes can be reversed on the fly to increase warmth.

    I used to make most of the Top Mistakes Alan refers to. I was and still can be headstrong assuming I know more than I do especially about things like layering. BUT, humbling myself being open to further learning about apparel, layering, and thermal comfort rather than thinking I know how to do that I don't need anyone else's opinion has made me better. I darn well know I'm not the only one in this category.
    http://www.adventurealan.com/top-mis...-warmer-drier/

    This may also be a helpful read because folks like Alan like using fleece.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmarshall099 View Post
    I'm leaving Springer on March 3rd 2019 and trying to dial in my gear the best I can before hand. I'm really trying to prepare for the cold weather in the beginning and have been debating on bringing a fleece for the extra warmth. I already have the mountain hardwear ghost whisperer and plan on using that for a camp jacket and only wearing it hiking if its dry and I absolutely need it. I was wondering if anybody else brought a fleece with them to wear hiking on cold wet days and how much it was actually used?
    Last year in March we had a bad snow storm, ice storm and tornadoes. I live close to Springer Mountain

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    Fair enough.

    I'm not being abrasive, argumentative, condescending, or selling misperceptions of personal omniscience.

    I think what happens to many, I can still do it myself but currently less so, is that we start out overly dressed. We start to heat up. We start not paying proactive attention to things like pace, over exerting ourselves. This leads to having to stop and take off layers or sweating. It can interrupt a steady rhythmic movement and lead to chilling. Even short stops to do so - change or remove layers - can chill under cold blustery wet conditions. Just by the removal of backpacks it decreases conservation of warmth. Some thought is that if we're conscious of these aspects it can play a positive role in differing apparel and layering selections...and possibly hiking with less apparel needs.

    The prevailing thought is if we're accustomed to longer stops its nice to have that additional insulation. For myself I like to maintain a consistently steady long term moderate pace especially when it's cold. The goal is to not start overly dressed. For myself I'd rather steadily hike on the move slightly cool in cold weather and manage thermal comfort proactively on a micro scale without having to remove pack and consistently remove and put back on layers. I do it on the fly by opening zips, wrists cuffs, and removing a hood or taking off a beanie or Buff, taking off gloves, drinking water, noshing small snacks, and watching my pace. I don't have to spend as much time stopped and being exposed to chilling possibly needing an at rest apparel piece. These processes can be reversed on the fly to increase warmth.

    I used to make most of the Top Mistakes Alan refers to. I was and still can be headstrong assuming I know more than I do especially about things like layering. BUT, humbling myself being open to further learning about apparel, layering, and thermal comfort rather than thinking I know how to do that I don't need anyone else's opinion has made me better. I darn well know I'm not the only one in this category.
    http://www.adventurealan.com/top-mis...-warmer-drier/

    This may also be a helpful read because folks like Alan like using fleece.
    I try to be proactive and will strip down to minimal baselayers in cold weather, yet still sweat.

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traffic Jam View Post
    I try to be proactive and will strip down to minimal baselayers in cold weather, yet still sweat.
    I hear you. Went for a run yesterday in mid 50's wearing shorts and a t-shirt. Still came back drenched.

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traffic Jam View Post
    I try to be proactive and will strip down to minimal baselayers in cold weather, yet still sweat.
    Well I guess you must be hot blooded.

    Are you proactively ventilating apparel BEFORE sweating, reducing your pace BEFORE sweating, checking in on your level of exertion and making changes as necessary before sweating, making apparel and baselayer choices that are breathable and applicable for a wide range of conditions. What are the temps and other conditions that are involved? Cold to one person is not cold uniformly to all. What accessories are you typically wearing and proactively removing? What's on your bottom half? All these aspects can affect one's ability to thermoregulate. It's not necessarily just in the number of layers that avoids over heating. Heck, I can think of several of my heavier baselayers with lesser breathability and few options for venting that I'd have a higher propensity for thermal mismanagement wearing just one baselayer, the warmer and calmer the weather increasingly more so.

    I think you're in the medical profession. Just like MD's and RN's gather information, often the more the better, and investigate the particulars, do likewise. It's your personal dilemma to figure out, try to understand as much as possible, and address it. Did you peruse Alan Dixon's article?

    Caleb is out running with a a higher propensity for heating up. That's understandable to sweat in 50* temps. It's probably not as critical to avoid sweating on a day run close to the house or city compared to backpacking.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    Caleb is out running with a a higher propensity for heating up. That's understandable to sweat in 50* temps. It's probably not as critical to avoid sweating on a day run close to the house or city compared to backpacking.
    Absolutely. On a typical short run, and to a lesser extent even a day long hike, I can be pretty nonchalant about it. On anything involving multiple days in succession it's something I have to pay close attention to. In the winter it means intentionally under layering and staying a little chilly in order to minimize sweat and maintain dry layers. In the summer it usually means not bothering with rain gear and instead packing appropriate options to stay warm and wet if the temperature drops.

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