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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    .. those who have respectfully offered a different stance than you
    The PCTA issued permit is not required. Hikers can obtain individual permits.

    Can we at least agree on that?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by postholer.com View Post
    Puppet, partner or panderer of the permit quotas I cannot say. Did the PCTA pander and beg their handlers for these quotas? Was this pandering done at the behest of a small group of TA's because their septic tanks were over-flowing? That information is not available to me.

    Here's what I DO know.
    + ANY permit is useless and pointless on land that has no restrictions.
    + The PCTA issued permit IS NOT required. It's a convenience. I can get my own permits.
    + The quota applies to the number of permits issued per day ONLY. Not the number of starters.
    + No dispersed camping without permit in a 25 mile section is the only restriction of the first 700 miles.
    + The Cleveland NF (caveat above), San Bernardino NF, Angeles NF, the BLM have no restrictions on the PCT hiker.
    + Passively intimidating hikers, calling hikers employers to get them fired, brow-beating them to accept pointless permit quotas has done irreparable damage.

    Can we at least agree on that?
    What you don't know is that a permit is required to hike through san Jacinto state Wilderness Park.

    You used to rant about the kickoff concentrating too many people at one time on the trail Now you rant at a system that tries to alleviate this concentration?

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwschenk View Post
    What you don't know is that a permit is required to hike through san Jacinto state Wilderness Park.

    You used to rant about the kickoff concentrating too many people at one time on the trail Now you rant at a system that tries to alleviate this concentration?
    The PCT is in San Bernardino FS wilderness area, they do not require a permit. That is federal land. Federal law and regulation takes precedence over state law even if it's in the states constitution. Go off trail and it's a different story. Get a free permit in Idylwild if it makes you feel better.

    The kick-off and permit system both do the EXACT same thing, they put people on the trail in an artificial way. Neither cared or researched the numbers before they forced their will on all of us.

    Will you ever think for yourself and stop parroting what you're told? I believe we've been down this road once or twice already.

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    Just like on other threads here on WB and elsewhere attempting reasonable discussion, self deluded mendacious dogma and diatribe.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by postholer.com View Post
    The PCT is in San Bernardino FS wilderness area, they do not require a permit.
    My map shows the PCT passing through the State Park. They require a permit:

    "Mount San Jacinto is located at a high altitude where the growing season is short. Plant life has little opportunity to recover from overuse from one season to the next, and unless we take the steps to protect these areas they could be lost to us forever.

    To ensure the preservation of the natural environment and assure the visitor of a quality visitor experience, the Department of Parks and Recreation has instituted a Wilderness Permit system; everyone entering the wilderness area for the day or for camping must have a permit in their possession. Day use wilderness permits are free and are available 24 hours a day at the State Park Headquarters office in Idyllwild, Stone Creek campground, or at the Long Valley Ranger Station. Applications for overnight permits will be accepted up to 56 days (8 weeks) in advance; if you apply by mail, send your request in at least 10 days in advance. Sorry, no telephone or FAX requests can be accepted."

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    Wow, I must say I was using postholer.com as a resource for planning my hike and was intrigued by the idea that the permit is irrelevant.

    After reading this thread and Postholer's comments in general, I neither trust the permit information on that site nor want to use that resource in general. Yikes.

    I'll get the permit and do this thing right.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by postholer.com View Post
    The PCT is in San Bernardino FS wilderness area, they do not require a permit. That is federal land. Federal law and regulation takes precedence over state law even if it's in the states constitution. Go off trail and it's a different story. Get a free permit in Idylwild if it makes you feel better.
    The kick-off and permit system both do the EXACT same thing, they put people on the trail in an artificial way. Neither cared or researched the numbers before they forced their will on all of us.
    Will you ever think for yourself and stop parroting what you're told? I believe we've been down this road once or twice already.
    I have no intention on debating law with you, but when I was hiking up the Devils Slide trail trail this summer (the PCT alternate route around the fire closure), two friendly but stern rangers blocked my path and said "of course you have a permit, don't you?" And, fortunately for me, because it would have sucked to have to hitchhike back to Idylwild, of course I did.
    “For of all sad words of tongue or pen,
    the saddest are these, 'It might have been.”


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    Quote Originally Posted by Wuff View Post
    Wow, I must say I was using postholer.com as a resource for planning my hike and was intrigued by the idea that the permit is irrelevant.
    After reading this thread and Postholer's comments in general, I neither trust the permit information on that site nor want to use that resource in general. Yikes.
    I'll get the permit and do this thing right.
    To Postholers point, I think it is possible to hike to Kennedy Meadows without a PCTA permit with a little extra effort. Keep your camping restricted to established campgrounds in a few areas, pick up a permit in Idyllwild for San Jacinto and so on. But why would you want to?

    Getting a single PCTA permit to navigate all the wilderness areas the length of the trail is a terrific convenience. The permit system helps spread out the herd, which helps protect the trail and the way hikers are viewed by the public and the agencies which administer these lands. The PCTA permit system gives important feedback to the PCTA and agencies about trail usage. Why would anyone not want to help and cooperate with the PCTA in this endeavor?
    “For of all sad words of tongue or pen,
    the saddest are these, 'It might have been.”


    John Greenleaf Whittier

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    "Why would anyone not want to help and cooperate with the PCTA in this endeavor?"

    Because some people will fail to plan and will not get one of the 50 quota spots which will fill up for a 3+ month period for all conceivable start dates for a traditional NOBO thru. In my opinion, doing so in large numbers, even if technically legal, is just daring the land management agencies to revoke PCTA's ability to issue permits at all. Then hikers will be on their own to navigate the permit issues over the entire trail. Hopefully it doesn't come to that. The PCTA permit is already abused and recent steps (like limiting 500+ mile section permits to only a few Sierra Nevada trailheads) were obviously a response to that. I've heard people openly discuss getting around Inyo and Yosemite Permits by claiming to do a 500+ mile section to get a PCTA permit and then using it just to hike the JMT. If the PCTA permits are abused enough, they will go away.

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    How much of this is for convenience sake of the human masses? Traditional NOBO's, PCTA permits, etc.

    To Posholers pt about the first 700 miles, of those LD hikers doing it, and likely going beyond doing traditional straight NOBO's, how many thrus will make the added efforts to avoid increasing abuse? The more complicated it becomes the more the "on trail" experience and a larger whole will be abused. The PCT Permit is a huge convenience already for LD PCT hikers! This is partly about seeking ways to scam to get what one wants! Want to thru the PCT there currently are plenty of ways to do it legally, without being shady, and within the PCT LD Permit system. Just because there're so many stuck inside a mental box "I want to turn my mind off doing the least to be responsible for my hike" mindset, the part of HYOH that many ignore) desiring the utmost convenience and familiarity of a straight traditional terminus to terminus NOBO doesn't make it always right in attempting to avoid permits. It was the same for those seeking JMT Thru permits not long ago. It's not that difficult folks if you think outside the utmost familiarity and convenience box chosen by the herd mentality...to which I 100% agree is possible which Postholer is stating in his own dogmatic way.

    @Coffee Rangers and authorities aren't unaware idiots prone to being scammed by JMT Thrus hiking under the illegal guise of PCT LD Permits! They're onto that!

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coffee View Post
    "Why would anyone not want to help and cooperate with the PCTA in this endeavor?"
    Because some people will fail to plan and will not get one of the 50 quota spots which will fill up for a 3+ month period for all conceivable start dates for a traditional NOBO thru. In my opinion, doing so in large numbers, even if technically legal, is just daring the land management agencies to revoke PCTA's ability to issue permits at all. Then hikers will be on their own to navigate the permit issues over the entire trail. Hopefully it doesn't come to that. The PCTA permit is already abused and recent steps (like limiting 500+ mile section permits to only a few Sierra Nevada trailheads) were obviously a response to that. I've heard people openly discuss getting around Inyo and Yosemite Permits by claiming to do a 500+ mile section to get a PCTA permit and then using it just to hike the JMT. If the PCTA permits are abused enough, they will go away.
    So because some people abuse the system, there should be no system? I'm not arguing that it's not a ****ty thing to do, I'm just wondering what the solution is. People are critical of parts of the permit process (some more than others) but I have yet to hear an alternative other than "screw it, let 300 people start each day and it will ruin things and that will teach those people a lesson".

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllDownhillFromHere View Post
    So because some people abuse the system, there should be no system? I'm not arguing that it's not a ****ty thing to do, I'm just wondering what the solution is. People are critical of parts of the permit process (some more than others) but I have yet to hear an alternative other than "screw it, let 300 people start each day and it will ruin things and that will teach those people a lesson".

    Thats the ATCs plan ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    @Coffee Rangers and authorities aren't unaware idiots prone to being scammed by JMT Thrus hiking under the illegal guise of PCT LD Permits! They're onto that!
    Right, but what can they really do? If someone unethical gets a PCTA permit entering at Tuolumne with a stated exit > 500 miles south but really intending to just hike the JMT, no one can prove their intent if the permit is checked en route.

    I've heard people openly talk about such scams. This is one reason why PCTA clamped down by limiting 500+ mile section permits touching the JMT to a certain capped number per year and only issuing permits starting at certain trailheads. So they are on to it but struggling with how to really address it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllDownhillFromHere View Post
    So because some people abuse the system, there should be no system? .
    No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that I fear that the response will be to eliminate the PCTA long distance permit system. We take it for granted but there's nothing written in stone that says PCTA has to do it, or that the land agencies will allow them to do it if they get fed up enough with abuse.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coffee View Post
    Right, but what can they really do? If someone unethical gets a PCTA permit entering at Tuolumne with a stated exit > 500 miles south but really intending to just hike the JMT, no one can prove their intent if the permit is checked en route.

    I've heard people openly talk about such scams. This is one reason why PCTA clamped down by limiting 500+ mile section permits touching the JMT to a certain capped number per year and only issuing permits starting at certain trailheads. So they are on to it but struggling with how to really address it.
    Again authorities already anticipated JMT Thrus attempting to scam under the guise of PCT Permits...and under your scenario. So far I assume it's not a big issue ALTHOUGH openly discussing taking this ILLEGAL SHADY APPROACH DOES MORE TO PROMOTE IT than address JMT and PCT and Sierra human impact concerns. Here are several steps that were recently added to restrict considering this ill advised approach; it's evident in the PCTA Permit info and through other managing authorities:

    Here’s what you need to know about Mt. Whitney

    PCT long-distance permit holders are allowed to day hike from the PCT to the summit of Mt. Whitney and back to the PCT.
    Due to high alpine camping impact concerns, PCT long-distance permit holders are NOT allowed to camp east of the Crabtree Ranger Station – that includes no camping at Guitar Lake or on the mountain itself. Nor are you allowed to descend the east side of the mountain via the Whitney Trail to Whitney Portal.
    Horses, mules and other stock are not permitted beyond the base of the switchbacks on Mt. Whitney.
    No PCT long-distance permits will be issued for trips starting, ending or resupplying at Whitney Portal. To hike that section, you will need to get a permit from a local land management agency.


    How do I apply for a permit with an unusual itinerary?

    If you’re wanting to do a planned flip-flop or a yo-yo or some other itinerary, go ahead and fill out a permit application for the first leg of your trip, then give us a call (916-285-1846) to have the permit reflect your actual itinerary.

    There are restrictions for LD PCTers regarding resupply and time off trail/re-entering and camping and unusual itineraries and other details that, in part, are to reduce ILLEGAL SHADY SELF ABSORBED IRRESPONSIBLE JMT/PCT and other hiker behavior.


    A few well formed questions and acute observation from intelligent aware authorities OR HIKERS makes it not too difficult to discern this kind of ILLEGAL SELF ABSORBED IRRESPONSIBLE hiker behavior.
    NEWS FLASH: THE HIKING COMMUNITY CAN EXPERIENCE LESS LEGISLATIVE INTERVENTION IF WE ACT RESPONSIBLY WITH INTEGRITY... by conscientious policing of ourselves in view of the better welfare of a larger whole.
    ILLEGAL SELF ABSORBED IRRESPONSIBLE individual hiker behavior negatively impacts the hiking community and environment. So, if you're going to engage in such behavior remember the hiking community at large has the additional responsibility and authority of self policing. You don't have to meet up with a Ranger or credentialed uniformed Land Mngr to be called out on behavior.












    Quote Originally Posted by Coffee View Post
    Right, but what can they really do? If someone unethical gets a PCTA permit entering at Tuolumne with a stated exit > 500 miles south but really intending to just hike the JMT, no one can prove their intent if the permit is checked en route.

    I've heard people openly talk about such scams. This is one reason why PCTA clamped down by limiting 500+ mile section permits touching the JMT to a certain capped number per year and only issuing permits starting at certain trailheads. So they are on to it but struggling with how to really address it.
    Again authorities already anticipated JMT Thrus attempting to scam under the guise of PCT Permits...and under your scenario. So far I assume it's not a big issue ALTHOUGH openly discussing taking this ILLEGAL SHADY APPROACH DOES MORE TO PROMOTE IT than address JMT and PCT and Sierra human impact concerns. Here are several steps that were recently added to restrict considering this ill advised approach; it's evident in the PCTA Permit info and through other managing authorities:

    Here’s what you need to know about Mt. Whitney

    PCT long-distance permit holders are allowed to day hike from the PCT to the summit of Mt. Whitney and back to the PCT.
    Due to high alpine camping impact concerns, PCT long-distance permit holders are NOT allowed to camp east of the Crabtree Ranger Station – that includes no camping at Guitar Lake or on the mountain itself. Nor are you allowed to descend the east side of the mountain via the Whitney Trail to Whitney Portal.
    Horses, mules and other stock are not permitted beyond the base of the switchbacks on Mt. Whitney.
    No PCT long-distance permits will be issued for trips starting, ending or resupplying at Whitney Portal. To hike that section, you will need to get a permit from a local land management agency.


    How do I apply for a permit with an unusual itinerary?

    If you’re wanting to do a planned flip-flop or a yo-yo or some other itinerary, go ahead and fill out a permit application for the first leg of your trip, then give us a call (916-285-1846) to have the permit reflect your actual itinerary.

    There are restrictions for LD PCTers regarding resupply and time off trail/re-entering and camping and unusual itineraries and other details that, in part, are aimed to curtail ILLEGAL SHADY SELF ABSORBED IRRESPONSIBLE JMT/PCT and other hiker behavior.


    A few well formed questions and acute observation from intelligent aware authorities OR HIKERS makes it not too difficult to discern this kind of ILLEGAL SELF ABSORBED IRRESPONSIBLE hiker behavior.
    NEWS FLASH: THE HIKING COMMUNITY CAN EXPERIENCE LESS LEGISLATIVE INTERVENTION IF WE ACT RESPONSIBLY WITH INTEGRITY... by conscientious policing of ourselves in view of the better welfare of a larger whole.
    ILLEGAL SELF ABSORBED IRRESPONSIBLE individual hiker behavior negatively impacts the hiking community and environment. So, if you're going to engage in such behavior remember the hiking community at large has the additional responsibility and authority of self policing. You don't have to meet up with a Ranger or credentialed uniformed Land Mngr to be called out on behavior.















  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coffee View Post
    No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that I fear that the response will be to eliminate the PCTA long distance permit system. We take it for granted but there's nothing written in stone that says PCTA has to do it, or that the land agencies will allow them to do it if they get fed up enough with abuse.
    That's a concern that has been brought up.

    Add me to the list of WB posters who have grown weary of self or community entitled self absorbed irresponsible promotion of BAD behavior. I'm dismayed by the number of comments that attempt to justify " the rules don't apply to me" mindset. No wonder why there need to be rules and outside enforcement of them!

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    If someone wanted to hike from Bend north to Holman Pass (PCT x PNT junction roughly) would they need any permits? Around 670 miles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WTX2WY View Post
    If someone wanted to hike from Bend north to Holman Pass (PCT x PNT junction roughly) would they need any permits? Around 670 miles.
    Oregon has a web page.
    http://www.pctoregon.com/pct-info/permits/
    Wayne

  19. #39

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    I'm a little confused about the PCTA permit. Can a permit holder begin the NOBO thru-hike on a date other than the
    permitted start date?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BudzoB View Post
    I'm a little confused about the PCTA permit. Can a permit holder begin the NOBO thru-hike on a date other than the
    permitted start date?
    The intent of the permit is to spread out the use of the trail. This means that hikers should only start at Campo on the day of their permit. Can you get away with starting on a different day? Probably. But wouldn't you want to do the honorable thing and help protect the PCT trail experience for current and future hikers?
    “For of all sad words of tongue or pen,
    the saddest are these, 'It might have been.”


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