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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightfoot View Post
    I'm sorry I posted this in the first place. I was only asking a simple question and never intended it to become a debate on the value of shelters on the trail.
    Rightfoot- don't be sorry, this is White Blaze you never know which way a thread will go, it can lead to a good discussion or it can go off the deep end. No matter what the topic is a lot of posts are based on personal feelings and emotions rather than facts. It's the internet, everyone has an opinion and everyone thinks they are right.

    I stated above the PCT and CDT had no shelters that I remembered, maybe I don't remember because I didn't stay in any if any are/were there. I do remember staying in one and only one shelter on the AT during my 2010 thru, never again will I do this. I do remember seeing the Overmountain shelter from the trail, I had no interest in going down to it.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightfoot View Post
    I'm sorry I posted this in the first place. I was only asking a simple question and never intended it to become a debate on the value of shelters on the trail.
    Rightfoot, I for one am glad you asked the question. I had no idea this was even being thought of. Now at the very least I can get myself in gear and go stay there one more time in case it does actually get torn down.
    I may never get to thru hike but I'll never get through hiking.

  3. #43
    Registered User ldsailor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    Whats pathetic , is judgemental people that ignore facts.

    No other long trail sans LT, that AT was copied from, has copious shelters. Or privys even.

    In spite of this, they also dont have AT degree of problems.

    JMT manages AT scale of hikers per day with minimal impact. No trash, partiers, overflowing privys . CT does too nowdays.

    Shelters create problems with high use. Its a demonstrated fact. Shelters are only moderately clean because caring people volunteer to clean them up regularly and pack out garbage that wont burn.

    Bottom line.....they attract wrong type of people. People with limited concern for environment they are in. Give people a building and they behave like they are in town. Leaving trash, discarding gear, and attracting people truly unprepared to be self sufficient. Evidence is overwhelming.....that does not occur when they arent there.

    Bitter? Ha. No. Such ignorance.
    I actually care that our limited resources be appreciated and respected and protected by people that use them.

    If that results in inconvenience, so be it. Its not about you.
    The Ouachita National Recreation Trail has shelters all along the trail.

    The JMT, unlike the AT, does not cross a single road (source - socialhiker.net). That makes it difficult for partiers to take advantage of the trail as most partiers are locals who hike in with their party supplies. Furthermore the JMT comes "close to civilization at only a few points" (source - socialhiker.net), which makes it even more difficult for partiers/locals to access the trail. And recently I read a lament by another hiker in a forum about the toilet paper that blows freely around the JMT. I can honestly say in almost 1,900 miles of the AT that I have never seen toilet paper blowing around on the trail; although I'm sure others might have.

    It is my understanding that shelters and campsite around shelters on the AT are meant to focus impact on the trail in a concentrated area so as to not impact the trail willy nilly. Those who camp outside the recommended or in some states "legal" campsites call those campsites "stealth" for a reason.

    So why not just campsites and no shelters? Other than it started at the beginning of the Appalachian Trail way back when (I saw an early shelter in the AT museum) and seems to be a tradition now, I have no idea why shelters are still used and new ones built. Maybe that's a good topic for another thread. I do know that any shelter where I have camped is usually full during peak hiking season, and it's rare to see a shelter with no one in it at night. Whether there is a shelter available for my use is not an issue. I carry a tent. Still, I have used shelters, especially when I couldn't find a place to pitch a tent at an approved campsite or when I get in late to a shelter area. The night I spent at the barn, I had both circumstances occur - no tent space and it was right after the sun set.

    MW, instead of railing against shelters here where no one can do anything about it, why not turn your focus on the ATC and various clubs that build and support the shelters. They can do something about it. This is a thread about the potential demise of a landmark of which a lot of hikers have fond memories.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldsailor View Post
    .

    MW, instead of railing against shelters here where no one can do anything about it, why not turn your focus on the ATC and various clubs that build and support the shelters. They can do something about it. This is a thread about the potential demise of a landmark of which a lot of hikers have fond memories.
    Shelters are not meant to focus impact.
    They do, but thats not why they were built. They were created far before the impact was an issue.

    There is no reason a historical building must torn down because you arent allowed to sleep in it anymore. Why people equate this is dumb. Theres several historic structures along trail that you cant enter or sleep in.

    Closing the barn as a shelter doesnt mean tearing it down
    EXCEPT to people who demand it be replaced with another that they can sleep in. Read post 5 this thread. These people.....are the ones that will get it torn down. Not people that say we dont need to have another shelter there. Im arguing to save it from those people. Its a fine campsite, with historic structure, and privy with a view.

    Looking down from the hump and seeing a typical shelter in that spot would be disgraceful
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 11-01-2018 at 12:43.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightfoot View Post
    I'm sorry I posted this in the first place. I was only asking a simple question and never intended it to become a debate on the value of shelters on the trail.
    Yep. WhiteBlaze. Where keyboard critics can whine about shelters they are not forced to stay in, at, or near. Heck, they aren't even forced to hike on the trail at all, as there are so many other trails more to their liking.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rain Man View Post
    Yep. WhiteBlaze. Where keyboard critics can whine about shelters they are not forced to stay in, at, or near. Heck, they aren't even forced to hike on the trail at all, as there are so many other trails more to their liking.
    ...and people that dont understand that their actions impact others experience, and believe if you dont agree with their views you should be quiet or go away.

    Discussion and conflicting viewpoints are necessary and healthy. People that quelch them....are not.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 11-01-2018 at 12:56.
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    Don't be sorry Rightfoot. It's just the way it goes here. If you had posted a thread that simply said "It's beautiful day today". In 24 hours it's as likely as not that there would be some terribly snarky responses, and more than a few deeply analytical replies and a full on debate about the true definition of the word beautiful and if today in fact qualifies as such and if it is even truly considered a "day" by scientific definition and so on and so forth. It is the circus that is Whiteblaze. And somewhere amidst it all, there will be some helpful and very kind-hearted responses mingled in with all the gruff and pretentiousness. It's all very entertaining to the readers at large. Don't take personal offense to the responses received. They are just fingers on keyboards flying to empty the mind of the body attached. Has nothing at all to do with you, and very little to do with what you post.
    " Of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt. "

  8. #48
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    The JMT, unlike the AT, does not cross a single road ..
    Not true. The JMT crosses Highway 120 twice.

    The Overmountain shelter is indeed scenic, iconic and well loved. But I doubt there's anything historic about it. Heck, the available space isn't used effectively. The upstairs is dark and only has one window. Half of the downstairs is a dirt floor. The other half has sleeping platforms that are often hogged by people using them as tent platforms.

  9. #49
    Registered User soilman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    Bottom line.....they attract wrong type of people. People with limited concern for environment they are in. Give people a building and they behave like they are in town. Leaving trash, discarding gear, and attracting people truly unprepared to be self sufficient. Evidence is overwhelming.....that does not occur when they arent there.
    Pretty strong and broad assumption. On my last thru hike I stayed in shelters 44% of my nights on the trail. I camped 33%, and stayed in hotels, hostels, or houses 23%. On my first AT hike in 1976 I spent 59 out of 100 nights on the trail in a shelter. The first thing I do when I get to a shelter is sweep it out. I don't like packing a wet tent and on a rainy night a shelter is pretty inviting to me. But I guess I must be unprepared.
    More walking, less talking.

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    Whats pathetic , is judgemental people that ignore facts.

    No other long trail sans LT, that AT was copied from, has copious shelters. Or privys even.

    In spite of this, they also dont have AT degree of problems.

    JMT manages AT scale of hikers per day with minimal impact. No trash, partiers, overflowing privys . CT does too nowdays.

    Shelters create problems with high use. Its a demonstrated fact. Shelters are only moderately clean because caring people volunteer to clean them up regularly and pack out garbage that wont burn.

    Bottom line.....they attract wrong type of people. People with limited concern for environment they are in. Give people a building and they behave like they are in town. Leaving trash, discarding gear, and attracting people truly unprepared to be self sufficient. Evidence is overwhelming.....that does not occur when they arent there.

    Bitter? Ha. No. Such ignorance.
    I actually care that our limited resources be appreciated and respected and protected by people that use them.

    If that results in inconvenience, so be it. Its not about you.
    That's great that those trails don't have shelters. Great for them.

    The "Facts" are that the AT has shelters- its always had shelters. Its part of the whole experience that makes it unique. Yeah, lets just get rid of the shelters, the blazes and, heck, lets get rid of the trail while were at it.

    "Bitter? Ha. No. Such ignorance."

    Yeah, you are bitter. You hate that others use the trail in a way that's different than you do. You want people to not sleep in shelters. That's a bad attitude to have.

    How DARE people enjoy the things I dislike! We shouldn't be allowing them to have those things!

    Or if you're really concerned about nature you should limit yourself to wilderness areas.

    There's always the "old school" crowd that has to be different and just trash on everyone else because they are enlightened.

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    ...and people that dont understand that their actions impact others experience, and believe if you dont agree with their views you should be quiet or go away.

    Discussion and conflicting viewpoints are necessary and healthy. People that quelch them....are not.
    But your viewpoint is to remove the shelters entirely. No question. You want to keep as many people off the trail as possible to preserve it in the way YOU want it.

  12. #52
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    If we look back to the original intent of the trail and research it, shelters were a part of it but to even a bigger extent. Brenton McKaye actually wanted them set up as a community but of course no one inteneded it to be used for a thru hike.

    Shelters also help reduce impact to only certain areas promoting LNT.

    As per the barn, historic does not mean that some important happened there, but I am a historian and a teacher and things that arenít done anymore, built anymore, and or seen are considered historic. The ďSee Rock CityĒ barns are historic and need to be preserved as they are slowly disappearing and once gone can never be replaced.

    Some people sound like they have never hiked or seen shelters in the south. They are different from other places. We do have a few places that are close to road access and that is why they become party shelters. Those should be relocated but not Overmountain and that location is historic as that is where volunteers traveled to cross the mountain to fight at Kings Mt. It is probably one of the most picturesque sights in the area and that is because of the shelter.

    Save it and if you donít like it, walk past it.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by bayview View Post
    Save it and if you donít like it, walk past it.
    Well said. I totally agree.
    I may never get to thru hike but I'll never get through hiking.

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    Bob Peoples is involved...nuff said. He'll be aware and sensitive to know how to proceed.

    Even if it is torn down barn timbers and cladding are recycled extensively. Even if it is torn down perhaps the remnants can be integrated into a new structure? There's a lot of it too. That would help us reminisce hey?

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  15. #55
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    Umm, without giving it much thought one can hike from shelter to shelter on the 133 mile Northville Lake Placid Trail and on the 192 mile Quachita Trail.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrogLevel View Post
    But your viewpoint is to remove the shelters entirely. No question. You want to keep as many people off the trail as possible to preserve it in the way YOU want it.
    Not really.

    Id like to see people that dont respect it, trash it, not encouraged to use it, or have anything that attracts and facillitates their bad conduct.

    The side effect of fewer people if those stay home, is a bonus that everyone benefits from. It postpones or mitigates inevitable restrictions.

    But, i also have a right to opinion about trail, what it should be, now and in future. Do not try to imply I shouldnt. You may disagree, thats OK. We have a large part of our society today that are protected crybabies that cant stand if anyone disagrees with them. A pitiful product of the last 20 yrs.

    But you could tear all shelters down and id be ok with it. I wouldnt miss them. Id also be ok with being required to carry bear cannister. 2 lb wont kill me either. I appreciate a shelter in rain as much as next person. But I dont need a shelter in rain.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 11-01-2018 at 21:32.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quik View Post
    Rightfoot- don't be sorry, this is White Blaze you never know which way a thread will go, it can lead to a good discussion or it can go off the deep end. No matter what the topic is a lot of posts are based on personal feelings and emotions rather than facts. It's the internet, everyone has an opinion and everyone thinks they are right....
    It's not just the internet either. 24/7 political, news, and social talk entertainment operate the same, even weather based news - feelings rather than fact based. Reality TV can be very far from truly representing reality and more feelings based. It pays too. Feelings based discussions feed into everyone having a different opinion which everyone assume their right in having. It feeds into dissension, the more dramatic the better, a prerequisite for tuning in - "being connected." This is necessary for a 24/7 always "connected" desiring culture. In turn this leads to someone or some group always debating, being offended about something. Turn on the computer, TV, radio, etc you'll be bombarded with people voicing being offended. That's why hiking can be a vehicle for sobering up from this.

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by mountain squid View Post
    We did some work on the retaining wall by the sleeping platforms. If I remember we added some logs.
    Thanks.

    Out of curiosity, have there been any discussions about installing a moldering privy when the current one is retired? Given how much use this site sees, it seems like an ideal candidate.

  19. #59
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    [QUOTE=Captain Blue;2227170]Not true. The JMT crosses Highway 120 twice./QUOTE]

    I read three different sources that said the JMT does not cross a highway; although I only cited one in my post.
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  20. #60
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    Jmt crosses hwy 2x at tuolumne.

    Then goes 190 mi or so without crossing a rd

    Many take shortcut at tuolumne, and dont cross hwy, but that not the jmt at that point.

    But almost touches road and civilization at reds meadow. Your 100 yds from a bus into mammoth.

    Several miles from rd and campground at Lake Edison.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 11-02-2018 at 12:11.
    "Inevitably, a long distance hiker must choose between travelling light, and not travelling at all." - Earl V. Shaffer

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