Winter gear evaluation for Presidential traverse

[CalebJ]

I'm preparing for a winter traverse attempt at the Presidential Range in New Hampshire next year. After years of winter backpacking down to about 0*, this has the potential to go significantly colder (and, obviously, a lot windier).

One of the pieces of gear I'm currently focusing on are boots. I've got a pair of La Sportiva Makalu's that should be perfect for the technical aspects of the trip, but aren't insulated for deep winter use. Has anybody used them or similar in that environment? I'm looking at a set of VB socks plus a thick outer sock (the boots are about a half size large so there's plenty of room for that). Also considering a set of insulated insoles. It looks like 3M used to make some that were well regarded, but they're no longer available. Any suggestions in that regard?

[Old Hillwalker]

I recommend these which combined with you listed boots should suffice. https://www.geartrade.com/item/41556...ize-l-redblack

[CalebJ]

I'll definitely have a good set of gaiters (probably OR Crocodiles). Just focused on what's inside the boot for the moment, however.

Edit - just realized that the gaiters you linked are actually insulated. Hadn't run across that before. Interesting concept. Sorry for not paying closer attention before my initial reply.

[ADK Walker]

My thoughts are that the Makalus will be a very cold boot for the Presi Traverse. I'd suggest maybe renting a pair of insulated alpine boots from Ragged Mtn, EMS or IME. One thing to be aware of is adding an insulated insole could change the fit of the boot. I know because I did the same thing on a winter climb of Washington and got the worse blisters I've had in years even though the boots were several years old and perfectly broken in for me (Nepal GTX Evo).

If you're set on using the Maks then an insulated overboot is another option to increase the temp range and as an added bonus they give you a kind of "camp shoe" to walk around in at your bivy as long as the terrain is mild and you won't slip.

I love that range in the winter. Have fun!

[egilbe]

Check out 40 Below for over boots.

[Slo-go'en]

Plastic double boots with a good set of crampons is the way to go. For a one time shot, rent the set up.

For the most part the snow is hard wind packed, hence the crampons. All the loose stuff is down in the trees just below tree line. The occasional drift you plow through. Snowshoes are of dubious value above tree line due to a lot of exposed rock. But you'll probably need them to get up there.

The most important part is picking the right day. The 2nd day after a cold front pushes through typically gives the best conditions with minimal wind.

[CalebJ]

Sounds like the rental is the only real option. A couple of good options in Bartlett so no big deal. I just have bad memories of the only time I've used doubles in the past.

I'm working on picking up a used set of crampons and snowshoes. We're doing a three day avalanche course then two days of basic mountaineering. After that we'll have a four day to get out into the mountains and hopefully decent weather to pull off a traverse.

[Feral Bill]

It's not a technical route, unless you seek that out. Way back when everyone used Mickey Mouse boots (military winter boots). They are heavy, clunky, and don't breath, but will keep your (damp) feet warm. You need hinged crampons, too. There is really no good substitute, to the point that the military, after years of trying variousl alternatives, has contracted for new production.

Have fun, and don't hesitate to bail if things get too intense. Who knows, you could get glorious sunny calm weather. I've seen ti that way there myself.

[nsherry61]

I'm always amazed at the level of gear people seem to feel the need for in winter. The Presi traverse is a lot of non-technical rough terrain. I haven't done the whole of it in one go in the winter, but I have spent some significant time above treeline in winter conditions in the presidentials. I may well bag it this winter. There is a lot to be said for being prepared for rough weather, but geez, heavy climbing boots and crampons? You just added 30% or more to your travel time and effort. I've never found a need for more than really good socks, vapor barrier liners, microspikes trail runners and good gaiters . . . unless I'm planning on standing around a bunch which I wouldn't plan on doing on a winter Presi traverse. If you're not standing/sitting around belaying and you're not to climbing high angle ice, there is just no call, in my book anyway, for all the extra weight and bulk of technical winter climbing gear. Lighten up. I do like the look of those insulated gaiters though. They'd be a nice extra insulation buffer over my trail runners if the weather and my ability to keep traveling was leading to colder feet than expected.

Good luck. It should be a great adventure!

[ADK Walker]

Micro-spikes could be worth their weight in gold. I've seen guided trips that carry both micro-spikes as well as 10 or 12 point non-tech. crampons. Having the right traction device will allow you to move quickly. I don't travel in the mountains in winter with out micro-spikes anymore and I'm usually carrying full ice climbing gear that includes a set of technical crampons anyway.

I think if I could only carry one traction device on a winter Presi Traverse I'd carry the micro-spikes in the right conditions. But I'd apply extra caution on the steeper ice patches which are usually found on the trails below treeline unless you are in the ravines. Just my opinion.


If the OP or anyone else is interested I have three or four pairs of Gore-tex insulated overboots that are in excellent shape. I have at least a medium, large and an x-large size left. PM me and we can talk cost and shipping. My hope is not to hyjack this thread but since the topic came up I'd thought I share.

[Slo-go'en]

I was a Gray Knob winter caretaker. Trust me, if this is a deep winter trek you want double boots and real crampons. Microspikes are okay, but fail on steep slopes and when you need to kick in steps or side step.

[CalebJ]

Whether we end up using all the gear is certainly open to whatever the weather holds in February when the time comes. I'd like to have all of it available to select from based on that weather, however. If I can start looking now and search patiently, my goal is to acquire what I can at roughly the cost of renting for the 10 days we'll be in the area.

My plan right now is to drive up, so plenty of room to carry an assortment of gear options. We're also splitting the cost of renting a condo for the week so we can sort through gear and have laundry, etc. I have a good 0* bag (Feathered Friends Snowbunting), but if it's going to be much colder then I'll consider renting.

ADX - I'll send you a PM about the overboots. Curious to see what you've got.

There's a pair of Sportiva Olympus Mons boots available on Geartrade in my size. Huge overkill for this trip, but tempting given that Rainier and then Denali are in the plans for the next 3-5 years if all goes well.

[chknfngrs]

Rent from IME and eat at the Thai place next door

[CalebJ]

The rental prices I've been writing down in my notes are all from IME, so that's the most likely source. A few items from NE Mountaineering since that's where we're taking the courses. Will check out the Thai place for sure. Sounds perfect for a cold day.

[Feral Bill]

Whether we end up using all the gear is certainly open to whatever the weather holds in February when the time comes. I'd like to have all of it available to select from based on that weather, however. If I can start looking now and search patiently, my goal is to acquire what I can at roughly the cost of renting for the 10 days we'll be in the area.

My plan right now is to drive up, so plenty of room to carry an assortment of gear options. We're also splitting the cost of renting a condo for the week so we can sort through gear and have laundry, etc. I have a good 0* bag (Feathered Friends Snowbunting), but if it's going to be much colder then I'll consider renting.

ADX - I'll send you a PM about the overboots. Curious to see what you've got.

There's a pair of Sportiva Olympus Mons boots available on Geartrade in my size. Huge overkill for this trip, but tempting given that Rainier and then Denali are in the plans for the next 3-5 years if all goes well.

A 0 degree bag is totally inadequate for the Whites in winter. Add an inner or outer bag, depending on volume, or else a generous three season (minimum) quilt. Regardless of weather forecast, carry the whole package. Otherwise use a true minus 20 degree or better bag. Seriously, you are very likely to need this, and the consequenses of inadequate gear are beyond unpleasant.

[CalebJ]

Right, that's why I'll almost certainly rent one based on the weather info that week. Buying another bag is not in the budget, so a rental is in the plan. I'll add a VB liner to the bag plus some worn layers as needed.

[Slo-go'en]

Some of the coldest temps of the year can be had in mid February. Or it can be unseasonably warm. Either way, it's a rare day the wind isn't blowing at 40-50 MPH gusts and that puts the wind chill well into the negative numbers.

Other important pieces of gear above tree line are a neoprene face mask, googles and mitten shells. The wind is usually out of the west/northwest so if you do a SOBO traverse the wind is mostly in your face. If the wind is out of the east, your in trouble as that means a nor'easter or other unpleasant weather is coming.

Here I am above tree line on a nice day in February way back in 1988...
wintergear2.jpg

[T.S.Kobzol]

I think the suggestion for trailrunners is only good for day runs in best weather and a quick up and down. I have seen some 'enthusiasts' who have the (I hope) first done the traverse in proper gear and then gradually started replacing gear until they arrived at a 'trailrunning setup' and had the stamina to run the range in one day etc etc ... for someone like you where this is a one time thing to do , a challenge I would definitely recommend proper gear as suggested by the other posters.

1/2 size larger shoes for winter are already too small. I believe 1 to 1 and 1/2 size larger is a safe choice. Superfeet Grey are wool insoles that I use. If your boots are not insulated then thin sock, vapor barrier and a thick sock setup is what works for me.

Start with microspikes and carry crampons in the pack... depending on your trail and conditions you might need to whip them out of the pack as well as an ice axe that should also be carried. But in general if You go up Valley Way and from madison take the highline (geez I think it's called highline...I hope I'm not mixing it with another region that I did) trail that bypasses some of the peaks like adams ... with luck you can make it safely across the whole range to crawford path near Mt.Clinton without any extremely steep climbing. The thing is that you never know if You get hit halfway by some unexpected condition that will reroute your trail and in such cases you may just need the ice axe and crampons etc..

I would definitely go for renting those insulated boots from MEI (next to the Thai restaurant that has delicious Pad Thai and the craziest waiter in North Conway) .

There are some grey beards who have done the winter 48 as well as 'the grid' who now hike in super insulated Sorels and do well with it. Microspikes go fine on those but crampons are a little tricky but it can be done.

That's my 2 cents for the 'feet portion' of your initial post. Have a great time and don't become a statistic.

[CalebJ]

To clarify a few things...

I'll almost certainly be renting a warmer bag (-15 or -20) bag from IME
VB liner for the bag
Closed cell foam plus a self inflating pad. If I can swing it, I'll grab an XTherm.
We'll carry two 4 season tents. I'll have a MH Trango 2, not sure about the other half of the group yet.
Ice axe
Crampons
Microspikes
Snowshoes
Trekking poles with snow baskets
Liner gloves, outer gloves, plus mitts and shells.
Ski mask or large coverage sunglasses
Base layer pants, insulating layer, hiking pants, shells, and equivalent for shirt/jacket (probably a nano air jacket, Precip, and a down parka)
Neck gaiter/buff
Balaclava, sun hat, and a basic winter beanie
Liner socks, VB socks, insulated socks
Crampon compatible boot (probably rented doubles)
Gaiters (OR Crocodiles or similar)
Insulated water bottles
Liquid fuel stove (Whisperlite) with a heat exchanger

Not every piece of all that will go in the pack when we step off, but I'm trying to have the options with me to pack appropriately based on the weather conditions. There are also some smaller things I didn't list above, but that's the basics. Normally I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum (15-20 pounds with food and water when stepping off for a typical 3 season weekend trip) but this is as much a trip for gaining some experience (safely) as anything else.

[Slo-go'en]

Even as cold as it can be, it's also important not to overdress while hiking. You will sweat. Of course, you need all that other stuff when you stop moving.

The RMC Gray Knob cabin has a stove and a caretaker so that is usually a first night stop. Actually, it makes a good base camp to do Madison and Adams first to get some above tree line experience and/or wait for the weather to improve. There are several ways up to the cabin, none of them easy. I prefer Lowes Path.

There are not many places you can get out of the wind along the ridge line. If your planning to camp, somewhere next to the Lakes of the Clouds hut is your best bet. Stay out of the Cols, those are wind tunnels. I've had to cross Edmands Col pretty much on my hands and knees at times. There's usually a big snow drift on the lea side of Jefferson which can be a challenge to get up and over. There is some avalanche danger there too.