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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by scope View Post
    Here's how (and I'm being hypothetical, of course)...

    Your sister has enjoyed listening to your stories of hiking and how much you enjoy it and hears of this popular area and thinks she'd like to check it out. She didn't mention this interest to you because if she did, you would've given her one of your maps, and perhaps a few other items to have just in case. But she's driving to a parking lot and doing a hike of just a few miles - I mean, its just walking, right? And she walks several miles a day already. And because none of her friends can make it that day, she's alone, which she enjoys the peace of being alone anyway. She's a little later getting up there than planned but still thinks she has time to get to do both Andrews Bald and to Clingman's tower. She's enjoying the hike and upon coming back to the Forney intersection, she decides she has enough time to take the longer and more hiker-oriented trail to the AT and then to the tower from there. But as she gets to the AT intersection, light is diminishing more than expected, so she's starting to get a little worried, not exactly in panic mode, but knowing she has to speed things up some. She sees the sign of 0.3m to the tower and is relieved because she knows she can make that and should be easy down to the parking lot. Plus its not that much more than the 0.6m she just hiked, incl distance to parking. In a bit of a hurry, she starts going west on the AT, when she notices another sign that she didn't pay as much attention to - perhaps because it wasn't as attractive as the weather-weary wooden sign. Its some sort of map looking sign that is designed to explain where she is now in the Clingman's Dome area of trails. She notices that based on where this sign says she is that she should instead head east on the AT, away from Goshen Prong and the shelter. She then notices the arrow on the wooden sign points east to the tower, or the opposite direction from GP/shelter. She hikes to the tower, sees the last glimmer of sunset, and makes her way back down to the parking lot on a paved trail in the waning light. And she tells you all about it the next day.

    I'd like for you to understand that I detest the terms "cater" and "least common denominator", at least when it comes to other humans. Do I think its somewhat going out of our way to put additional or different signage in a place that already has it... sure. Is that so unreasonable? A life was lost, and right now, I'm just raising a point about signage to suggest what "might" work to help prevent another loss of life and completely open to other thoughts of action - I think thoughts of inaction should be tabled for now. Is there going to be another lost hiker death in GSMNP? Sure, and it likely might involve this area just due to numbers. The additional signage won't prevent that fact, but it might indeed save a life or two before that fact materializes. We don't know all of what happened this time, and its worth some patience here to let all the info get discovered and sorted out, but eventually, I think its all too appropriate to at least think about what can reasonably be done to "help" prevent this from happening again. I'm pretty sure if it was your sister, you'd have a different view of her station in this world, and in that I hope you can understand how ugly I feel your comments are.
    i stopped at "your sister." it makes no difference its my sister, my niece, my best friend, whoever. i'll never subscribe to we need to make everything as safe as possible for the one in a million person who may run into trouble. doesnt matter if i am close to said person or not.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNhiker View Post
    that's not correct though...

    and how do we not know the paint in the signs is not reflective?
    Sorry, a little too AT-minded of me - but can you camp anywhere on other trails in the park?

    Clearly the weathered wooden sign we've been discussing has NO paint. The others with white lettering may very well be reflective for all I know. Again, agree or not with some suggestions, but I find a lot of opposition to the signage question as missing the overall point.
    "I wonder if anyone else has an ear so tuned and sharpened as I have, to detect the music, not of the spheres, but of earth, subtleties of major and minor chord that the wind strikes upon the tree branches. Have you ever heard the earth breathe... ?"
    - Kate Chopin

  3. #103
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    I don't think there's ANY paint in the letters. And the arrows on the upper sign are a little hard to read. These signs are in decent shape. I've seen others that are in worse shape.

  4. #104
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    but I find a lot of opposition to the signage question as missing the overall point.


    but you're missing the point of post #100...

  5. #105

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    I'm with Scope on this issue,obviously.Check out the first 22 seconds or so in the YT vid that shows signage on the FootHills Trail.The signs there are obvious but not glaring to the point of ruining anyone's wilderness experience.
    link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXFF9APSbyk

  6. #106
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    but can you camp anywhere on other trails in the park?


    yes............as long as its at a campsite......

    not a "pick any place you want and throw up a tent" kinda Park...

  7. #107
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    I don't think there's ANY paint in the letters.


    for some reason, i was thinking the letters had paint....

    i think some other signs in the Park have paint in the letters...

  8. #108
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    yeah....

    just did an image search for trail signs----some have paint in lettering...........some do not....

  9. #109
    Registered User scope's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNhiker View Post
    yes............as long as its at a campsite......

    not a "pick any place you want and throw up a tent" kinda Park...
    Well, that's kinda my point, don't ya think? If you HAVE to make it to a certain location to camp, poor decisions aside, you may have hikers hiking in waning light at least, if not darkness, to get to their assigned location.
    "I wonder if anyone else has an ear so tuned and sharpened as I have, to detect the music, not of the spheres, but of earth, subtleties of major and minor chord that the wind strikes upon the tree branches. Have you ever heard the earth breathe... ?"
    - Kate Chopin

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by scope View Post
    Well, that's kinda my point, don't ya think? If you HAVE to make it to a certain location to camp, poor decisions aside, you may have hikers hiking in waning light at least, if not darkness, to get to their assigned location.




    was she a dayhiker or a backpacker looking to spend a night in the Park?



    her destination was a parking lot.....

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNhiker View Post
    but you're missing the point of post #100...
    Oh, didn't miss the point, how could I? That idea stinks, and frankly, its stinks a lot differently than however you think the signage idea does.
    "I wonder if anyone else has an ear so tuned and sharpened as I have, to detect the music, not of the spheres, but of earth, subtleties of major and minor chord that the wind strikes upon the tree branches. Have you ever heard the earth breathe... ?"
    - Kate Chopin

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNhiker View Post
    was she a dayhiker or a backpacker looking to spend a night in the Park?



    her destination was a parking lot.....
    meant hikers in general
    "I wonder if anyone else has an ear so tuned and sharpened as I have, to detect the music, not of the spheres, but of earth, subtleties of major and minor chord that the wind strikes upon the tree branches. Have you ever heard the earth breathe... ?"
    - Kate Chopin

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by scope View Post
    Oh, didn't miss the point, how could I? That idea stinks, and frankly, its stinks a lot differently than however you think the signage idea does.
    based on a reading of this article, would you be in favor of a higher barrier at this location that could not be climbed over? or perhaps moving the barrier much further back from the edge and not letting people within say, 50 feet of the rim?

    https://people.com/human-interest/il...-grand-canyon/

    i mean what if your sister....

  14. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdoczi View Post
    aside from one deceased hiker who **possibly** walked past the sign and didnt see it, what indications do you have the signs are faulty or insufficient?
    I never said the signs were "faulty" or "insufficient".My point is that they could be made more noticeable without addition of neon lights,btw.I myself nearly walked past on of these weathered signs elsewhere in the park.I saw the trail intersection before noticing the sign which was more removed from the trail and somewhat camouflaged into the landscape.But I was not cold,hungry,or already disoriented either.

    Other parks have much better signage than GSMNP.Some,like Everglades National Park Boat Trail,have a lot less.
    Everglades signage consists of a weathered post with a number,arrow,and reflector on it.If you don't have map and compass and skills to use them you might be in the park indefinitely.They do require you to sign in at the Ranger's station before you enter the park.Normally I don't like government regulations but I was in favor of that one!

  15. #115
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    So what are we doing here? Making reasonable arguments, or bullying? Seems off point to me, with attitude that I could do without. I really can't believe this went downhill like it did, and I guess I'll be blamed for leading its downfall. Its happened before and I should learn from it. But we often don't.
    "I wonder if anyone else has an ear so tuned and sharpened as I have, to detect the music, not of the spheres, but of earth, subtleties of major and minor chord that the wind strikes upon the tree branches. Have you ever heard the earth breathe... ?"
    - Kate Chopin

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    Quote Originally Posted by scope View Post
    So what are we doing here? Making reasonable arguments, or bullying?
    making a reasonable argument, which i will now summarize and leave alone-

    in any situation where millions of people visit a place where there is a chance of encountering some sort of fatal peril there is some small number of people who will find said peril. falling into the grand canyon. swimming near waterfalls in yosemite... these are much more common issues than getting fatally lost in GSMNP.

    we should not make our guiding principle the idea that we should seek to prevent any and all such occurrences, because it is impossible. seeing one person make a mistake, a mistake we have no reason to think is common or prevalent, and thinking we need to do something to keep others from repeating that mistake is not anything i will ever ascribe to. i do not think is helpful and i do not think it is a healthy worldview to hold. i probably find it just about as distasteful as you seem to find my view for some reason.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdoczi View Post
    making a reasonable argument, which i will now summarize and leave alone-

    in any situation where millions of people visit a place where there is a chance of encountering some sort of fatal peril there is some small number of people who will find said peril. falling into the grand canyon. swimming near waterfalls in yosemite... these are much more common issues than getting fatally lost in GSMNP.

    we should not make our guiding principle the idea that we should seek to prevent any and all such occurrences, because it is impossible. seeing one person make a mistake, a mistake we have no reason to think is common or prevalent, and thinking we need to do something to keep others from repeating that mistake is not anything i will ever ascribe to. i do not think is helpful and i do not think it is a healthy worldview to hold. i probably find it just about as distasteful as you seem to find my view for some reason.
    What he (she?) said.

    It is like this, and this may be hard for most of you to swallow. But, the only person at "fault", for lack of a better term, was the hiker and her apparent lack of backcountry skills, inadequate clothing, and lack of necessary gear. Bad things happen to good people. It sucks, but that is life. The take on this tragedy should be that everyone that wanders into the backcountry should go into it with adequate knowledge, skills, and equipment.
    Lonehiker (MRT '22)

  18. #118
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    So what are we doing here? Making reasonable arguments, or bullying?



    well-----with a comment like this from you to me-----"frankly, its stinks a lot differently than however you think the signage idea does."

    sounds like you're bullying....

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNhiker View Post
    was she a dayhiker or a backpacker looking to spend a night in the Park?



    her destination was a parking lot.....
    TNHiker Have the autopsy reports been released on this woman or the ginseng hiker?
    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..........
    Travel not for the destination, but for the joy of the journey.

  20. #120
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    Look folks, I'm really sorry about getting us into this discussion of signage. I obviously don't think its something that is not worthwhile, but clearly some do.

    But I do think its worth pointing out that we all share differing world views. Some of us have very similar guiding principles that lead us down different roads, perspectives and viewpoints. And then some of us may indeed have significantly different principles. Doesn't matter. We're supposed to have the common thread here of helping each other stay informed on hiking matters. Its a forum, that means discussion of hiker subjects, and we should be leaving world viewpoints (ours or theirs) out of it.

    For my own part here, I thought I tried to keep the discussion on the level and on the subject of thinking about signage differently. But I did say that someone's else's idea "stinks". I have to apologize for that. However, I think the espousal of that opposing opinion has the effect of blunting ANY discussion regarding this particular incident and ones like it. That seems like bullying to me. Fine if you want to disagree with me on that.

    For me, the signage suggestion was never just about this incident and what should or should not be done about it. So, I'll leave it for now and perhaps start another thread about signage if I get around to it.
    "I wonder if anyone else has an ear so tuned and sharpened as I have, to detect the music, not of the spheres, but of earth, subtleties of major and minor chord that the wind strikes upon the tree branches. Have you ever heard the earth breathe... ?"
    - Kate Chopin

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