GSMNP - Was Asked to Show a Permit

[HooKooDooKu]

Labor Day weekend, I made a loop out of the AT, Jonas Creek, Forney Creek, Noland Creek, and Noland Ridge.

Along the Forney Creek section, about 5 miles from the nearest trail head, ran into a pair of park rangers and was asked to show my camping permit. That's the 1st time in over twenty years of hiking GSMNP that a ranger in the back country has asked me to show a permit. Don't know if this was just a Labor Day Weekend thing, or will we see more rangers in the back country (I hope we'll be seeing more rangers).

The bad news is that all the bad behavior I saw this weekend was at the tunnel at the end of the "Road to Nowhere" where the ranger's SUV was parked...
Saw at least three groups hiking the trails in the area with a dog (at least they were all on a leash). But then, a motorcyclist crossed the barrier and "hot dogged" between the barriers and the tunnel (then continued thru the tunnel). In the process of "hot dogging" at cooler on the back of the cycle flips open spilling Gatoraid and water bottles as well as a glass bottle.

[soumodeler]

I have been asked if I have a permit maybe 3 times, but never asked to actually produce it.

Unfortunately, it seems like I see more and more people who just don't care about rules of any type. It is all about them, not what anybody else says. I have absolutely no problem with seeing more rangers to hopefully enforce the rules a little more. I avoid popular destinations like GSMNP on holiday weekends, partially to avoid crap like this, and just too many people for my tastes.

[illabelle]

We hiked a loop several weeks ago that overlapped yours (Forney Ridge + Springhouse Branch + Forney Creek). We had to navigate over/around a couple of big blowdowns, one of them requiring a difficult off-trail climb up a steep hill to get past it. I remember wondering how long it had been since that area had been maintained, wondering what, if any, Park resources are spent on trail maintenance, wondering what tools we should personally carry on our next trip, etc.

We spent the night previous to the trip at Smokemont. Going over Newfound Gap, we saw that they were repaving everything, including pull-offs for overlooks and trailheads. It's not for me to say whether the road needed a new coat of asphalt, but I sure was wishing some of that money could have been re-directed towards backcountry maintenance and ranger presence.

The rule-breakers won't be deterred without imposing consequences. A sign doesn't have the impact a ranger does. Ironically the dog-rule-breakers probably were upset about the cyclist-rule-breaker. How dare he drive a motorcycle on the trail! That's illegal!

Might be fun if some of us were to get a look-alike ranger uniform to hike in. Maybe we could then confront and educate people without getting told off.

[HooKooDooKu]

I avoid popular destinations like GSMNP on holiday weekends, partially to avoid crap like this, and just too many people for my tastes.

At least in the back country, I saw a lot fewer people that I expected to. Camp sites were no where close to full (even if the reservation said they nearly were).

If you exclude the day hikers around trail heads and cars along our two short road walks, we encountered about a dozen people at back country campsites and another dozen along our 32 mile loop.

[Starchild]

As a Ridgerunner 4 years ago I have asked countless times for the camping permits. Though I have no power to command it (though I could radio a 'problem' to central dispatch which is like 911), most were glad to show it to me, a few did question me about my authority to do so, but always gave in.

By far the largest 'problem' in terms of the management philosophy are those tenting/hanging when they need to stay in shelters and the expanded camping area they create in the process, followed far behind by 'stealthers' (camping not at/around camping sites). This had little correlation to carrying permits as I saw it.

It terms of permits themselves, the largest issue would be what was termed 'off sequence hikers', hikers with permits but at (or heading to) a different shelter/camping spot then the one indicated. Usually, as I was trained,I would give a LNT speech about plan ahead and prepare plus the importance of the reservation system, then radio the back country office to see if it would be possible to change their reservation to correct for them being off sequence and plan out a route that would work. After that would be people incorrectly using thru hiker permits (as they didn't qualify). Some admitted it, some said they could not reserve the sites they wanted so did this instead - again a talk and a radio to back country office to correct if and how possible. There were a few I suspected of this as well, though they held to their story.

Finally are those without permits at all, which was actually a small number. I could issues them permits on the spot (again radioing to BCO) and they would get mailed the bill (if they gave the correct address), Rangers finding this could also fine them and may have them hike out instead of field permitting them. It appears that those not getting any permits were the ones at risk of fines, and some have seemed to take advantage of this getting a permit but without any plans of hiking those shelters/campsites they reserved.

[FreeGoldRush]

On a busy holiday weekend it's a safe bet that people bring their dogs without realizing the gsmnp rule against dogs. Yes, I have seen the no-dog signs at the trail heads but I sure didn't notice it on my first visit, and the casual visitor probably does not either. To be clear, I do understand this particular rule and support it.

The guy on the motorcycle was clearly in the wrong place and would have known better, sign or not.

[JPritch]

Was out there all weekend as well along the AT. Busier near trailheads of course, but everyone I met was kind and well behaved and appreciative of the experience. I was asked for my permit by a RR. The Smokies sure are a special place.

Two questions:
- is there no "GSMNP" boundary sign at the North end at Davenport Gap, similar to the one on the South end at Fontana?
- are horses allowed on the AT in the Smokies? Lots of horse crap from Cosby to Davenport. I always thought horses weren't allowed.

[DuneElliot]

On one of my most recent hikes in Wyoming I came across ATV tires tracks a half mile or more inside the wilderness boundary. The thought of it pretty much ruined that day for me. It wasn't like the wilderness boundary was close to the road...they had to drive a mile up a non-motorized footpath to get there and destroyed some delicate marsh habitat in the process. People are just....HORRIBLE sometimes.

[TNhiker]

- are horses allowed on the AT in the Smokies? Lots of horse crap from Cosby to Davenport. I always thought horses weren't allowed.

yes..............certain stretches of the AT in the Park are open to horses and pack animals........

the dollar map shows the parts they are allowed on...

[HooKooDooKu]

Two questions:
- is there no "GSMNP" boundary sign at the North end at Davenport Gap, similar to the one on the South end at Fontana?
- are horses allowed on the AT in the Smokies? Lots of horse crap from Cosby to Davenport. I always thought horses weren't allowed.

It's been a few years since I was at Davenport Gap, but I don't recall a "boundary" sign (I think there was only a trail head sign).

As for horses in GSMNP, you have to look at the back country trail map to see what trail segments horses are and are not allowed.
As far as the AT in GSMNP, it looks like horses are allowed between Shuckstack to Spence Field, Pecks Corner to Davenport Gap, and a segment near Silers Bald.
(Shuckstack to Spence Field and Pecks to Davenport Gap make up the bulk of where hor

[Starchild]

...Two questions:
- is there no "GSMNP" boundary sign at the North end at Davenport Gap, similar to the one on the South end at Fontana?
- are horses allowed on the AT in the Smokies? Lots of horse crap from Cosby to Davenport. I always thought horses weren't allowed.

Not sure about your first question, however Fontana Dam is 1- very touristy, while Davenport is really just for hikers, better to let them know about it before venturing in 2 there is a thru hiker permit drop off box at Davenport (and Fontana), so there is some sign of it.

About horses, as I understand it it is because of historical reasons, horses were still used for transport at the time the part was formed and the park divided communities. Horses were allowed so these communities could continue to use them to transit between the communities. Today horse clubs work well with the park, using their horses to haul up supplies that is needed for trail, campsite, shelter and privi maintenance. A single horse can take up a lot of wood shavings at a time, and that can be a couple thousand feet in elevation. They are good partners of the park and many hikers do benefit from them.

[TNhiker]

- is there no "GSMNP" boundary sign at the North end at Davenport Gap, similar to the one on the South end at Fontana?

i dont know which boundary type of sign you are referring to------maybe the large brown ones that sit off of a road??

but, there are boundary signs nailed to the trees (unless torn down) that generally go around the whole boundary of the Park...

they are maybe 2 inches across by 8 inches long, and made of plastic...

i have seen these signs tacked to trees in basically every part of the park at the boundary...

[TNhiker]

They are good partners of the park and many hikers do benefit from them.

(talking about horseback riders)


the horse groups are typically the most active groups in trail maintenance and other volunteer projects....

[soilman]

Last year on day 7 (Sunday) of my hike on the BMT I came to the tunnel. At that point I had only seen a total of about a dozen people on the trail. I did a double take when I passed a couple with a dog then I came around the corner and hit the tunnel. There were perhaps 30 noisy people walking thru the tunnel. Talk about culture shock. I realized that the couple with the dog were not hikers but people who drove to the end of the road to nowhere, parked, and walked thru the tunnel. I imagine most people probably don't even realize they are in the backcountry let alone walking on a trail.

[HooKooDooKu]

I realized that the couple with the dog were not hikers but people who drove to the end of the road to nowhere, parked, and walked thru the tunnel. I imagine most people probably don't even realize they are in the backcountry let alone walking on a trail.

I must say that I don't know if dogs are or are not allowed thru the tunnel. It's a paved road from the barricades thru the tunnel and on for anther 100 yards. I looked as we passed the barricades, and there was not a sign saying dogs are not permitted on the "road" (all other "roads" in the park are not considered back country and dogs are allowed along them).

But the trail heads for beyond the tunnel (Lakeshore, Goldmine Loop, Tunnel Bypass) had the proper "no dogs" signs in place. When I say I saw three groups with dogs, I mean on these trails, NOT the road thru the tunnel.
At this point, I've been to the tunnel three times, and every time I've seen one or more groups with a dog along one of these back country trails.

[illabelle]

Last year on day 7 (Sunday) of my hike on the BMT I came to the tunnel. At that point I had only seen a total of about a dozen people on the trail. I did a double take when I passed a couple with a dog then I came around the corner and hit the tunnel. There were perhaps 30 noisy people walking thru the tunnel. Talk about culture shock. I realized that the couple with the dog were not hikers but people who drove to the end of the road to nowhere, parked, and walked thru the tunnel. I imagine most people probably don't even realize they are in the backcountry let alone walking on a trail.

We took three friends to the tunnel on a dayhike a few weeks ago. I admit that we were noisy. The tunnel has great acoustics. Kinda fun to sing or scream or yodel in there.

[full conditions]

We took three friends to the tunnel on a dayhike a few weeks ago. I admit that we were noisy. The tunnel has great acoustics. Kinda fun to sing or scream or yodel in there.

I live about nine miles from the tunnel and hike there at least once a week and, while it is a pretty cool experience to walk thru it w/o benefit of a headlamp, it is worth noting that the local high school kids (go Maroon Devils) use it a party spot and have been known to throw empty beer bottles into the tunnel for the same excellent acoustic effects. Ergo, watch where you step.

[HooKooDooKu]

Ergo, watch where you step.

Yea, I noticed other people either using flashlight (or their phone) and recommending the same to others they saw approaching the tunnel.
I've so far only hiked the tunnel as a part of a back packing trip where I was wearing boot and didn't need to give it a second thought. (But the graffiti on the walls makes it obvious it's something of a party spot at times).

[TNhiker]

I must say that I don't know if dogs are or are not allowed thru the tunnel. It's a paved road from the barricades thru the tunnel and on for anther 100 yards

i would say that dogs are not allowed on the road inside the tunnel....


to me-----the trail starts at the sign right by the gate..........by the parking lot...........

[HooKooDooKu]

i would say that dogs are not allowed on the road inside the tunnel....
to me-----the trail starts at the sign right by the gate..........by the parking lot...........

I don't disagree with you (technically, I think you are right).
But from the point of view of a dog owner "caught" with a dog in the tunnel, the argument could be made that that there is no sign at the gate saying "no dogs", that dogs are allowed on park roads, and that the path beyond the gate sure looks a lot like a "road". And if you really know your back country signs, the trail intersection sign for either the Goldmine Loop or the Tunnel Bypass indicates a distance to "Lake View Drive", and I noticed this weekend that distance is based on where the dirt trail ends and the paved road beyond the tunnel begins (but then how would someone with a dog that shouldn't be in the back country know that).