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  1. #21
    Registered User colorado_rob's Avatar
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    Nice comment on the consumable thing... We do try our best, I consider it a victory when I walk into town with one little bite of food left and zero water. I realize that conservative types shun this, being a conservative type myself.... With today's apps like Guthook (and those real-time or very recent reports), it's kinda easy to be fairly sure of water at most sources.

    And I definitely agree with the overall OP premise of a "non-UL pack" and the comment that the pack should maybe be the last piece of UL gear acquired. THAT being said, my most recent pack, the Zpacks Arc Haul is a UL pack, but doesn't act like one with respect to load carrying capacity.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    If you want to lighten your load it's strongly suggested you look (more) intensely at your consumables category. CONSIDER: If out for a 5 day with most carrying about 2 lbs food/day that's 10 lbs in food alone. CONSIDER: Hauling just 1 extra L of H20 is an extra 2.2 lbs with some(many) unnecessarily carrying in excess of 1 L H20. Reduce that food to say 1.5 - 1.75 lbs/day in a personally intended situationally safe manner and it saves you 2.5 - 1.5 lbs in food...AND BULK that snowballs into the option of a lesser volume probably decreased wt pack that is COMFORTABLE TOO. H20 is another item hikers often carry too much of. H20 also takes up a lot of volume(it's concentrated wt!) and can imbalance loads. With hauling lesser water wt and volume one may likely be able to further consider reducing wt and the bells and whistles of a conventional pack. Cha ching cha ching. Add it up and the results, especially for those on fixed tight hiking budgets, and the consumables wt and volume savings can far surpass your pack and possibly any other single gear piece savings. What did it take? To know thyself as a backpacker. To be apprised of conditions. To develop our skill sets beyond just gear purchases and gear knowledge.

    It amazes me as a LD UL sometimes SUL hiker how often we neglect consumable knowledge as we get sidetracked with wt and volumes of gear. This is NOT UL philosophy... as practiced as a more complete approach! It is a skewed narrowed approach ignoring an important UL category that isn't given the attention it rightly deserves...consumables and H20 logistics.
    If your light enough....its less important though.

    Do you really care if carrying 18 or 20 lbs? Does it really make difference?

    Nope. IMO. Not for everyday hiking at 20 mpd.


    I recall 2 long water carries of 20-25 mi, with dry camp in middle recently. Fairly hot conditions.
    Did both on 1.5-2 L water after drinking at source. But still carried 3.5L . I know that if I do half mileage in next morning when cooler, I need minimal water for that 10 mi. So really only need water for 10-15 mi + dinner.
    Why carry extra then?
    Well, suppose one lt wt water bottle leaked, or dropped and rolled off edge of trail.
    Or....next source was dry too...
    Always good to have extra just in case, when consequences are more severe.

    Cutting something like water too close....is plain stupid in dry conditions.
    Things happen. I keep bottles in tent so animals cant chew on them. (Gatorade/sugar smell and residue) Woke up once with one mostly leaked out. Nothing important got wet, was able to use bandana to sop up and dry almost a liter from floor. But shows eventually, especialky with cheap disposeable bottles, things happen.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 09-08-2018 at 23:10.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuneElliot View Post
    To go along with that SOMEHOW notbad (the guy who has done both of my WRR trips with me) just completed Skurka's Wind River High Route and managed to fit all his gear (including extra thermal layers) AND 10 days of food in an MLD Burn; that takes experience and some very talented packing.
    Swami(Cam) was/is rocking a BURN for yrs. I dont know if he hauls 10 days of chow very often thou with his daily mileage capabilities. I bet he can though. Several other experienced LD hikers rock the MLD BURN. Umm myself for another about 35 % of LD hikes not just weekenders. I get 7-8 days chow plus the rest of my 3 season kit. No hip belt with less than 15 lbs - THAT INCLUDES CONSUMABLES. This is very doable for me. It does take a reduced wt AND VOLUME kit though. It's been an evolving affair to currently get where I am with my kits though. AND, logistics play a huge role. If I'm over 15 lbs or the wt is still low but the kit volume gets bulkier I find a ULA CDT cavernous and more than adequate even in winter. Minimal sized and bulk cuben tarp and bivy helps a lot plus any water is stored outside the pack on shoulder straps. food volume reduction is massively important... MORE CRITICAL than the gear. being able to do daily mileage avgs that puts me in the range of 200-260 miles or so between resupply is often a necessity. As Skurka and Cam state it's a hiking centric approach/hiking life where camping is but a necessary ingredient to continually be hiking.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    If your light enough....its less important though.

    Do you really care if carrying 18 or 20 lbs? Does it really make difference?

    Nope. IMO. Not for everyday hiking at 20 mpd.


    I recall 2 long water carries of 20-25 mi, with dry camp in middle recently. Fairly hot conditions.
    Did both on 1.5-2 L water after drinking at source. But still carried 3.5L . I know that if I do half mileage in next morning when cooler, I need minimal water for that 10 mi. So really only need water for 10-15 mi + dinner.
    Why carry extra then?
    Well, suppose one lt wt water bottle leaked, or dropped and rolled off edge of trail.
    Always good to have extra just in case, when consequences are more severe.

    Cutting something like water too close....is plain stupid in dry conditions.
    Things happen. I keep bottles in tent so animals cant chew on them. (Gatorade/sugar smell and residue) Woke up once with one mostly leaked out. Nothing important got wet, was able to use bandana to sop up and dry almost a liter from floor. But shows eventually, especialky with cheap disposeable bottles, things happen.
    I said "in a personally intended situationally safe manner", once one know(s) thyself as a backpacker, (after) be(ing) apprised of conditions and as one develops our(their) skill sets beyond just gear purchases and gear knowledge. It's about being individually responsibly safe, NOT about being unsafe.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    If your light enough....its less important though.

    Do you really care if carrying 18 or 20 lbs? Does it really make difference?

    Nope. IMO. Not for everyday hiking at 20 mpd.

    It can make a difference depending on one's goals and, as you say, where you're at in evolving your kit and evolved as a backpacker.

    While I might not be bothered significantly physically by 2 more lbs when comparing a 18 lb load to 20 lb load on maintained single track it can make difference. Here's how. First, I'm quite strong and able to carry those wts especially in the shoulders and upper body with typically no great fanfare. That has not always be the case though. I can notice it especially in hot weather on strenuous terrain and off trail. BUT, should that added two lbs be a very bulky 25 % increase in volume it can add to fatigue in ways possibly more than just the wt of the extra 2 lbs. When talking about UL we often get into a narrowed perspective of examining just wts. IMHO that is a mistake.

    Secondly, although we can examine it from several perspectives, think about how often many LD hikers( and hikers in general) micromanage the wt of what's on their feet...and all manner of other things including shelters. We pick trail runners that weigh less sometimes primarily because they weigh less...by what 6 --10 oz for the pr. We do it because wt on feet affects performance. It contributes to possible added fatigue. It's not exactly the same but now think of an added 2 lbs on our upper bodies. It can make a difference.

    Another way it can make a difference is psychologically. Anal ULers of which I'd say there certainly is a substantial crowd(umm, BPLers and some(many) habitual LD experienced hikers for example) can be "bothered" by even a few extra ozs. AND, under some conditions even anal ULers could be rockin' a 20 lb load(big food and water hauls likely). Bet Skurka's consumables wts were high on much of his Alaskan Traverse even with his mega daily mileage avgs. That's why I believe he used a pulk on that trek and possibly at times on his continuous North Country Tr coast to coast thru.
    On that kit wt curve I do agree that at skin out wts of 15 lbs perhaps 12 lbs and less a 10 % wt increase to 16.5 or 13.2 lbs for advanced Ulers in very good physical condition the physical fatigue significance is probably(likely) very small. That's just my 2 cts. Others would strongly disagree. It goes against their gram weenie mindset.

  6. #26

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    It also takes luck:

    - that it's not 88F and humid and you're ascending thousands of feet, sweating buckets
    - that water sources along the way are sufficient, not dried up (and that you can know this in advance ... not always easy on less popular trails that are new to you)
    - that water sources are suitable for filtering/treating (this is not always the case, e.g., on some sectio
    *I would say that is more being apprised of conditions, being aware starting out, than a matter of luck. It is contributing to the state of "personally intended situationally safe."

    One thing that I should do more of is not merely filtering and filling water at good sources, but drinking substantially at such places before moving on. That could help me carry less.

    *Excellent technique(skill?) There are oodles of water wt saving ideas on oodles of WB and elsewhere info sources. We dont always give these threads the wt saving attention they rightly deserve. We tend to talk so much about gear wt saving and purchasing.

    But then again, having a lighter pack isn't my primary objective. Having fun hiking is, and by striking a balance between a carrying enough water to provide a margin of safety and peace of mind with the concomitant pack weight that such water requires, I maximize my fun.

    Perhaps, saving wt and bulk contributes to having fun, being less fatigued, longevity as a backpacker, being able to go bigger IF that's what one wants to do, and possibly safer? The two goals dont have to be mutually exclusive.

  7. #27

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    We all wish we could afford the lightest gear available, but lighter gear usually costs a lot more so sometimes you just have to compromise. I could get a lighter tent, but it would have cost me twice as much. I could have got a warmer sleeping mat but it would have cost more than twice as much as my current one, and I could have got a lighter backpack, but none of them were guaranteed to be 100% waterproof...So I compromised and got a very light 100% waterproof backpack (the Mountain Hardware Scrambler RT35 Outdry), so I didn't need to carry the extra weight of a waterproof cover, which would make a lighter backpack even heavier than mine when it rained.

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