Mt. Rogers and area closings

[DownYonder]

GSMNP has a tenuous situation because they don't allow hunting in the park. And now Mt. Rogers appears to as well. What we're seeing is areas that don't have at least some limited hunting are dealing with problem bears.

Virginia counties around GHSP/MRNRA and number of bears taken by hunter in 2017....last year
Washington - 70
Wythe - 32
Smyth - 56
Carroll - 26
Grayson - 63
TOTAL - 247

Looks to me that the bears didn't get the memo.

Bears have a natural fear of humans. Hunting will lower the statistical probability of human/bear encounters but it will NOT teach bears anything....except the ones that the dogs tree. They don't hang out in Yogi's den, downing Molson Golden discussing how their BBF was treed and shot by hunters because they have been raiding too many backpacker's packs.

[EdP]

One by one, as best I can:

Uncle Joe, there is no hunting allowed in GSMNP, although there could be. Some very few NPs do allow hunting but most do not. There is no legislative prohibition against it, it is a park service decision. Hunting IS allowed in both Mt Rogers NRA and Grayson Highlands State Park. However, large game animal recovery from several miles off the road is a challenge most hunters are not equipped or inclined to attempt.

Venchka, the wolf recovery program in Yellowstone proper is not a problem, but the program was not limited to the park and the wolves did not stay just in the park. Wolves were added to the endangered species list and reintroduced to Yellowstone and to central Idaho, and had already re-established themselves in western Mt. USF&WL set goals for the number of wolves to reach before wolves would be delisted and management turned over to the respective states. What happened was that when the target numbers were achieved and delisting was attempted, animal rights activists filed repeated legal challenges and shopped for activist judges to impose injunctions against delisting. This went on for years, meanwhile the wolf population surged and elk and mule deer declined, and attacks on livestock increased. Finally congress acted and passed legislation restoring management to Mt and Idaho, but the fight still rages in Wy.

TnHiker, you are correct, the cause of death has not been determined or released, just that the bear had fed on the poor fellow. I suspect it will not be released, but it seems unlikely (not impossible) that a 30 y/o out digging roots just keeled over dead.

[Hosh]

It’s rutting season in Colorado and also archery and muzzle loader hunting season. Elk are stacked up in Estes Park and RMNP like cord wood. They know the boundaries of safe non hunting zones. And no, they weren’t sent an email or memo.
Animals are very good at adapting to environments dominated by humans.
Surrounding National Forest and Wilderness area don’t have anywhere near the population densities

[TNhiker]

suspect it will not be released, but it seems unlikely (not impossible) that a 30 y/o out digging roots just keeled over dead.

it should be released as it's public record...

along with every media outlet, at least in Knoxville and if not more, will be asking for it...

and who nose how he died...

he could have been killed by his partner.....slipped on a rock...suicide.....who nose?

[Lone Wolf]

GSMNP has a tenuous situation because they don't allow hunting in the park. And now Mt. Rogers appears to as well. What we're seeing is areas that don't have at least some limited hunting are dealing with problem bears.

bear hunting is allowed in the MRNRA.

[Venchka]

Hosh & EdP,
Thank you. I appreciate the in depth answers.
Wayne

[EdP]

Downyonder, those numbers would include bears taken in MRNRA and GHSP as hunting is allowed in both. With regard to bears learning to avoid humans you are probably correct. When a bear encounters a hunter and the hunter kills the bear, that bear does not share any info with the bear population at large. I think a more likely scenario for hunting having an effect on bear behavior comes from removing the more aggressive or more habituated bears from the population. The idea being that those bears with less fear of humans are more likely to be taken by hunters. Thus the boar that avoids humans breeds a sow that does the same and she teaches her cubs the same behavior. That's why I find it so frustrating that VDGIF brought problem bears into the Mr Rogers area.

TNHiker, I hope you are correct and the cause of death is published. I didn't realize media in the Knoxville area would pursue it, that's good to hear. We won't see it in any media here in SW Va so hopefully someone will talk about it on the forum or I will pick it up via a Google search.

[TNhiker]

I didn't realize media in the Knoxville area would pursue it, that's good to hear.

why wouldn't we?

its been covered all over the southeast.........and elsewhere.....

[Uncle Joe]

bear hunting is allowed in the MRNRA.

I stand corrected.

[Uncle Joe]

Virginia counties around GHSP/MRNRA and number of bears taken by hunter in 2017....last year
Washington - 70Wythe - 32Smyth - 56Carroll - 26Grayson - 63TOTAL - 247
Looks to me that the bears didn't get the memo.
Bears have a natural fear of humans. Hunting will lower the statistical probability of human/bear encounters but it will NOT teach bears anything....except the ones that the dogs tree. They don't hang out in Yogi's den, downing Molson Golden discussing how their BBF was treed and shot by hunters because they have been raiding too many backpacker's packs.

I would agree that it's debatable whether hunting instills this fear but it would appear to work in game like deer.

[EdP]

Here we are over a month later and still waiting on the cause of death. Officials say it could take 90 days to complete an autopsy. Seems unreasonable to me.

[EdP]

...and here we are, now TWO months since William Lee Hill Jr's body was found and I can find nothing on the web to tell us if the bear that was feeding on his body killed him. TnHiker, have you heard anything in your local news?

[TNhiker]

...and here we are, now TWO months since William Lee Hill Jr's body was found and I can find nothing on the web to tell us if the bear that was feeding on his body killed him. TnHiker, have you heard anything in your local news?

No....

and its kinda falling off the radar....

ill ask the crews tomorrow that are going down to the foothills opening, if they can ask the PIO about both deaths...

my guess is the answer will be "still waiting for autopsy to come back"

[EdP]

Thanks TNhiker.

For those that don't know, Mt Rogers reopened to back country camping on 10/2.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/gwj/n...d=FSEPRD597933

[Traveler]

I would agree that it's debatable whether hunting instills this fear but it would appear to work in game like deer.

That may be because deer are a herding species as opposed to bear that are not. Herds can possess historical memory of sorts by older members that recognize noises or threat appearances that cause them to move into areas they have not experienced those issues before, like protected lands.


As an aside, watching swallows in huge flocks and perform amazingly complex movements in tight formations of flights (murmuration) is an indication there may be more going on than we can fully appreciate. I have often wondered if this occurs in herding mammals at some level.

[TexasBob]

.........As an aside, watching swallows in huge flocks and perform amazingly complex movements in tight formations of flights (murmuration) is an indication there may be more going on than we can fully appreciate. I have often wondered if this occurs in herding mammals at some level.

Warning - thread drift

Birds in a flock follow 3 simple rules (Reynolds Rules) that allow this behavior:

1. Collision avoidance: avoid collision with nearby flock-mates and obstacles
2. Alignment: attempt to match the velocity and heading to nearby flock-mates
3. Cohesion: attempt to stay close to nearby flock-mates

Further explanation:

Collective behaviour of large groups of animals, or flocking, is a natural behaviour that has puzzled many people. Examples of this is not only flocks of birds, but even fish schools and mammal herds[2][3]. The motion of flocks of birds seem quite randomly ordered and yet well arranged and synchronised. In 1987 Craig Reynolds thought that the flock motion was a result from actions of individual animals [3]. He thought that each individual acted on its own decisions from its perception of the world, which today is a common notion on how collective behaviour emerge [2].To keep cohesion in a flock of birds, without colliding into each other, it is required to have some kind of interaction between the individuals of the flock. In a field study [2] it is shown that the interaction does not depend on metric distances to other bird as most previous models and theories assumed [3], but rather that each bird on average interacts with six or seven of its neighbours. This topological way of interacting means that every bird in larger group keeps its eye on six or seven of its closest neighbours and follow their every motion [2]. If a predator appear, the bird first to see itwill change the direction to avoid becoming the prey. Instantaneously the flock will change direction in a manoeuvre wave [4].

[Traveler]

Thanks for that explanation, it does clear up a few things presuming the theory is correct.

[EdP]

...and now another month has gone by making it THREE months since William Lee Hill Jr's body was found and I can find nothing on the web to tell us if the bear that was feeding on his body killed him. We have now exceeded the longest estimate for autopsy results authorities were quoted as providing in published articles.

Since I have seen nothing related to William Lee Hill regarding charges filed or a murder suspected, I can only conclude that he either died of natural causes OR the bear killed him. In my mind it is important for the east Tn hiking community to know if the bear killed him and I wish the local news outlets would pursue the story with more vigor on their behalf. Perhaps a FOIA request will be needed to get the answer.

[TNhiker]

and I wish the local news outlets would pursue the story with more vigor on their behalf.

we have......

but the autopsy results havent come back in....

this is typical for autopsies...........they dont come back quick...

and fwiw-----there will never be charges filed in this incident.......

[TNhiker]

i should note that a preliminary autopsy did come back and it was inconclusive.......