Power Tools USFS

[rhjanes]

Pack animals are fine in any wilderness areas here...that's how they get the tools in. No difference between pack and riding animals

I bet I was mistaken on that point. Designated "Wilderness" areas have pretty strict rules. I think the area I was in, also has "no animals". But perhaps for hauling in hand tools, maybe that is OK.
Where I was, there is a close by "NFS Wildlife" area....blazes, even florescent disc, power tools on major damage....no problem....

[DuneElliot]

I bet I was mistaken on that point. Designated "Wilderness" areas have pretty strict rules. I think the area I was in, also has "no animals". But perhaps for hauling in hand tools, maybe that is OK.
Where I was, there is a close by "NFS Wildlife" area....blazes, even florescent disc, power tools on major damage....no problem....

Could be. States also have designated wilderness areas that can be managed very differently from the federal ones

[FrogLevel]

I understand the need for low impact to the land, but a storm has already caused major impact. A common sense approach to clearing these areas should be implemented.

I would take a Bobcat and a crew of the best tree men up there and get the job done. Afterwards go in and repair the trail with hand tools.

But that's the whole point of a wilderness. It has to be left alone. Move around the blow downs. If we allow chain saws why not blazes on trees. If we allow blazes on trees why not build a shelter? And a privy... You have to draw the line somewhere and I think only using hand tools is a good place to draw the line.

[DuneElliot]

But that's the whole point of a wilderness. It has to be left alone. Move around the blow downs. If we allow chain saws why not blazes on trees. If we allow blazes on trees why not build a shelter? And a privy... You have to draw the line somewhere and I think only using hand tools is a good place to draw the line.

I think chainsaws, by permit and on occasion due to blow downs and other dramatic events, is a good occasional exception to the rule because if we still have to maintain access to trails and public lands especially within the minimal budgets the NFS already has.

[MuddyWaters]

I think chainsaws, by permit and on occasion due to blow downs and other dramatic events, is a good occasional exception to the rule because if we still have to maintain access to trails and public lands especially within the minimal budgets the NFS already has.

Maybe.
Someone decides if its necessary
Or just a lazy solution

Most times it would be latter, and that doesnt fly

Ive seen generators, drills used for blasting too, trail construction. All carried up. But thats it. A lot of slow manual labor.

[Tipi Walter]

But that's the whole point of a wilderness. It has to be left alone. Move around the blow downs. If we allow chain saws why not blazes on trees. If we allow blazes on trees why not build a shelter? And a privy... You have to draw the line somewhere and I think only using hand tools is a good place to draw the line.

I wish Wilderness could be left alone! Back in 2007 the Cheoah Ranger district in NC decided to land a helicopter on top of Hangover Mt which is smack dab in the middle of the Slickrock/Kilmer wilderness. Talk about unhappy campers. They came up and clearcut an acre off the top of the mountain with chainsaws etc.

I arrived with my pack the next day and got to see the rape of a wilderness mountain which you would think would stand protected "against man's impact for ages to come". Ha ha that's a joke. This is what I walked up on---



Next pic---


My dog stares in disbelief.

This is what the forest grove used to look like---



I estimate it'll take at least 100 years to return to normal. What has it become?? A giant field of briars, of course---



When I returned home from my Clearcut trip I emailed the pics to a lawyer in Knoxville and an avid Sierra Club member. The fotogs caused a ruckus etc.

[DuneElliot]

I wish Wilderness could be left alone! Back in 2007 the Cheoah Ranger district in NC decided to land a helicopter on top of Hangover Mt which is smack dab in the middle of the Slickrock/Kilmer wilderness. Talk about unhappy campers. They came up and clearcut an acre off the top of the mountain with chainsaws etc.

I arrived with my pack the next day and got to see the rape of a wilderness mountain which you would think would stand protected "against man's impact for ages to come". Ha ha that's a joke. This is what I walked up on---



Next pic---


My dog stares in disbelief.

This is what the forest grove used to look like---



I estimate it'll take at least 100 years to return to normal. What has it become?? A giant field of briars, of course---



When I returned home from my Clearcut trip I emailed the pics to a lawyer in Knoxville and an avid Sierra Club member. The fotogs caused a ruckus etc.

I've never seen the likes of this out here in the west. Wilderness is untouched except for trails.
The ONLY reason man touches the wilderness around here is to cut a tree that has fallen across the trail OR to fix a trail that has been washed out or affected by a rock slide...and unless it is a blow down or major winter clear out it is all done by hand with help of pack animals to haul the gear. I've seen helicopters go to the edge of the wilderness to drop stuff to repair a fire tower, but never land. I

[colorado_rob]

I've never seen the likes of this out here in the west. Wilderness is untouched except for trails.
The ONLY reason man touches the wilderness around here is to cut a tree that has fallen across the trail OR to fix a trail that has been washed out or affected by a rock slide...and unless it is a blow down or major winter clear out it is all done by hand with help of pack animals to haul the gear. I've seen helicopters go to the edge of the wilderness to drop stuff to repair a fire tower, but never land. I

I'm guessing that in the vastly more crowded eastern wilderness areas, the wilderness rules are more likely to be bent for "special considerations", but really just a guess. I, too, in about 40 years of hiking extensively in the wilderness areas here in the west, have never seen any power tools or other mechanized items (vehicles, etc) in a wilderness area. But I have seen a lot of work being done in wilderness areas, always "by the book". Yet another example of different cultures east/west. Neither good nor bad, just different.

[FreeGoldRush]

One spark from a power tool could touch off a fire, which nobody wants.

This is simply not an issue in the southeast, especially during this wet year we are having. Power tools are routinely used outdoors.

[The Old Chief]

I was hiking in the Hunting Camp Creek Wilderness Area in SW Virginia a couple of weeks ago and there were plenty of AT blazes on the trees and a shelter (Jenkins). I can't recall any wilderness area on the AT that didn't have blazes and, if large enough, shelters. I do know that in the Middle Prong Wilderness Area in North Carolina, MST blazes are not allowed and next door in the Shining Rock Wilderness Area they are allowed.

[skater]

I was hiking in the Hunting Camp Creek Wilderness Area in SW Virginia a couple of weeks ago and there were plenty of AT blazes on the trees and a shelter (Jenkins). I can't recall any wilderness area on the AT that didn't have blazes and, if large enough, shelters. I do know that in the Middle Prong Wilderness Area in North Carolina, MST blazes are not allowed and next door in the Shining Rock Wilderness Area they are allowed.

Blazes in the wilderness on the AT are by special exemption. Blazing as a rule is discouraged or disallowed in wilderness.

[DuneElliot]

Blazes in the wilderness on the AT are by special exemption. Blazing as a rule is discouraged or disallowed in wilderness.

Having just done the High Uinta Wilderness I can definitely attest the this...cairns to show the trail in the wilderness, blazes and signs outside of the wilderness boundary (to a point, but inconsistent)

[MuddyWaters]

I've never seen the likes of this out here in the west. Wilderness is untouched except for trails.
The ONLY reason man touches the wilderness around here is to cut a tree that has fallen across the trail OR to fix a trail that has been washed out or affected by a rock slide...and unless it is a blow down or major winter clear out it is all done by hand with help of pack animals to haul the gear. I've seen helicopters go to the edge of the wilderness to drop stuff to repair a fire tower, but never land. I

They land to extract people when needed.
They dump fire suppressant from planes
They send in fire crews to contain non-natural fires
They build bridges over rivers and streams
They build trails...and use blasting.

We have NO true wilderness. It is all "managed".
It is intervened with as necessary.
Combustion engines are kept to minumum, but there is always exceptions

They dont blaze trails out west, they put up signs instead at intersections.

[DuneElliot]

They land to extract people when needed.
They dump fire suppressant from planes
They send in fire crews to contain non-natural fires
They build bridges over rivers and streams
They build trails...and use blasting.

We have NO true wilderness. It is all "managed".
It is intervened with as necessary.
Combustion engines are kept to minumum, but there is always exceptions

They dont blaze trails out west, they put up signs instead at intersections.

They dump fire suppressant from planes. Mostly here they let fire in the wilderness burn...build fire lines outside of wilderness boundaries.
They send in fire crews to contain non-natural fires See Previous statement
They build bridges over rivers and streams A few, to either better protect the natural environment or enable access and protect life. There is only one bridge in the Cloud Peak wilderness. And in the High Uintas they built boardwalks to better protect the marshland....sadly the lesser of two evils.
They build trails...and use blasting. Depends on the wilderness, but tail building is necessary. If people can't access these places why would people care about protecting them. Being able to touch and see places motivates people to protect them.

Signs or blazes (carved not painted)...both exist here in the west. Of course it's all managed but better managed to be touched as little as possible than not managed at all...now don't get me started on the MTB debate.

[MtDoraDave]

The first time I became aware of the power tool ban in certain areas was when I noticed a narrow cut an inch from where the final cut was made on a blowdown across the trail.
I've used a chainsaw enough to recognize that this cut mark was about half the width of what a chainsaw would leave.
I was blown away, because it was a large tree.
That occupied my mind the rest of that day.

[Traveler]

This is simply not an issue in the southeast, especially during this wet year we are having. Power tools are routinely used outdoors.

According to data generated by USDA Forest Service Region 8 (this district leads all others in wild land fires), there are approximately 45,000 wildfires that burn some 1-million acres of forest lands in the Southeastern US annually. Some of these fires are relatively small and self extinguish, others are of considerable size. Some acreage is open land (which may account for the large total of "burned acreage") that regrows quickly, some are forested, with different sources of ignition including lightning strikes, careless debris burning, poor campfire management, sparking equipment (atvs/dirt bikes, construction/foresting equipment, railroad equipment, welding equipment, smoking materials, etc). In the shadow of the Chimney Tops fire, I would suggest wild land fires are as much of an issue in the Southeastern US as it is in most all regions of the US, especially during drought conditions that can develop in the middle of what appears to be a wet season in any area over a few hot weeks or full season of rain deficit.

However, the reason chainsaws and other mechanical equipment is not allowed in wilderness areas goes far deeper than fire danger as the NFS points out in several publications, best summed up with the overarching philosophy that wilderness exists for its own sake and represents the remaining primitive America free of technology and motorized equipment that have allowed people to dominate most of the planet over time. It is not the role of the NFS to alter wilderness to appease impatient visitors or managers seeking a faster or easier means to groom trails or build roads.

That said, there are occasions where wilderness rules can be breeched for search and rescue, but even these are rare. Trail clearing is not a high priority for breeching wilderness rules and most managers of these areas typically are loath to do so for non-emergency work.

[Mike Goodman]

Crosscut saw and axe work also requires that you be certified by the USFS. Re-certify every 3 years.
Battery powered chain saws are now a pretty good alternative to gasoline power. No gas fumes or spills or need to carry gas; just chain oil. Doesn't stink up the joint or make nearly as much noise, and you don't hurt your shoulder starting them up. I've wondered if 'emergency' conditions would allow for them.

[Traffic Jam]

Sound carries a long way. I’m sorry that trail clearing is difficult without power tools but I’d rather not hear those obnoxious sounds in the backcountry. It’s no different than hearing the screaming motorcycles on the Cherohala Skyway.

[Tipi Walter]

Sound carries a long way. I’m sorry that trail clearing is difficult without power tools but I’d rather not hear those obnoxious sounds in the backcountry. It’s no different than hearing the screaming motorcycles on the Cherohala Skyway.

You got that right---terrible idea to bulldoze in a motorcycle tourist road thru the mountains of Monroe County TN and Graham County NC---Btw, speed limit is supposed to be 40mph. And wait til you hear the Harleys without mufflers.

[Trailweaver]

I didn't see this mentioned, but one reason I can certainly think of why a power saw wouldn't be a good idea in the backwoods is that accidents happen. . . I know two men personally who have had horrific chain saw accidents. One lost his thumb and is no longer able to work at his chosen profession, and he was a young man when it happened. If you have a serious accident miles from a trailhead, with hours to go before you can get to a hospital, you can bleed out and die. Let's face it. . . you are much more likely to have an accident with serious consequences using a chain saw than you would be using a crosscut saw.