+1
As always Bill nailed it with this last post
The Arc backpack fits my kit... YMMV
The Arc Haul was my first backpack when I got into backpacking. I had no experience but didn't go into it blind either....I read, and read and read some more (I research almost TOO much when buying stuff). I spent a LONG time deciding on which pack would be right for me BUT I also bought other high-end, light-weight gear to go along with the pack because I knew what the pack was capable of because I'd done my research...A SMD Lunar Solo and then a Duplex, an EE down quilt, a Klymit sleeping pad etc...you see where I'm going. Sure, it took me a few trips to get the pack fit dialed in but my base weight then and now is right at 13lbs.Originally Posted by Just Bill
I am one of those who feels the bottom bar of the frame even with under 20lbs in it and built my own lumbar pad as the add-on one wasn't sufficient FOR ME (I am pretty tiny and there just isn't any natural padding where the pack sits).
Despite all this (and sending my Arc Haul pack in for repair this week) I will still keep the Osprey even if it isn't needed much. It's a good all-round pack that I can use as a loaner pack if someone wants to come with me in the future and doesn't have gear (I already have friends wanting to go). It also seems like a better pack for cavorting around Europe (not hiking-backpacking) which I will be doing in the future with my move back to the UK and is a good size to use as a carry-on on the plane. I am at the point where I do think I need to let at least one of the four I will now have go though...really don't need them all.
yeah that is kind of the jump - from around 2 lbs to well over 3
what I aim seeing in the mid 2's has neither the capacity or comfort of my modified arc haul
obviously the problem is a limited market (so high price, which further limits the market)
my concept: beefed up arc haul suspension, stronger stays, more padding and a precurve belt - about 65liters, dyneema x body, life expectancy of 7500 miles - under 3 lbs - hopefully still under 500$
https://sectionhiker.com/sectionhike...packs-0f-2018/
A quick summary of current mainstream options.
A few thoughts-
How important is the ventilation?
In high summer, could be a big deal. In shoulder seasons, maybe not.
Are you sweating buckets or strolling along pretty casually?
Ventilation is a 'feature'. All features cost weight, but not always.
An osprey Talon 44 weighs the same as the Exos 48- 2lbs 7 ounces roughly- pretty much the same pack body.
https://www.rei.com/product/111240/osprey-talon-44-pack
https://www.rei.com/product/864597/osprey-exos-48-pack
Which brings up the second issue:
Most of us own more than one pack. You may find you have the same need.
The third issue is volume, as in why you might need more than one pack.
For many LD hikers... this is basically insulation and clothing (perhaps food/fuel) changes from summer to shoulder. The rest of the gear doesn't change much.
A pack like the Osprey Exos or Gregory Optic clocks in around the 2.75lb mark. However they both have removable brains... which allow you to both add volume seasonally or reduce weight seasonally.
That may be a compromise of sorts to budget... but it may provide a better 'one pack' solution.
Overall though... perhaps the better challenge to tackle is volume.
Right now you have a 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' problem with your current pack.
But you have a too much stuff (weight/volume) problem with upgrading... which is driving you to attempt meeting in the middle.
An air pad vs a foamy or self inflator.
An older sleeping bag vs a better fill or quilt.
A shelter vs a tarp system.
Upgrading and refining your clothing system.
Or just the pile of 'other' from cook kit to ditty bag that could be tuned up.
If you're talking dropping $200-$300 to save a pound (compromise pack); it sounds to me like money is better spent elsewhere. Contents before container.
So the overall the question is, 'What problem are you trying to solve?'
Maybe the Arc Haul is an ideal pack for you. And the problem is your contents, not the pack.
So maybe this season could/should be spent on working towards solving that problem and next season is the Arc Haul upgrade.
Maybe you're perfectly happy with your contents. And the problem is simply that the ventilated packs look neat and you'd like to try one.If so, then accept that in order to gain that feature, you need to accept that you need a mid range pack to work with your current contents.
Hey.. if that is what you want... and you still shave a pound then why is that a compromise? You get the feature you want without reworking your whole kit.
I would also caution you to shop by main body volume. Many of the cottage guys get a bit optimistic on volume of other pockets.
For the Arc Haul- "Volume: 49L main body, 2.5L each side pocket, 8L center pocket, 62 Liters Total"
So this leads many to then compare it to a 58L pack.. but really it's comparable to a 48L pack in practice. With the main body stuffed to the gills you don't fit much in those outer pockets. And as mentioned above; cramming too much into those pockets is a good way to cause the pack to function poorly. Ideally those areas are for 'in a pinch'... not for your base load to occupy.
Granted... a 58l vs a 48L may not generate a whopping savings... generally you will save 2-6 ounces in most packs and we're generally niggling over ounces. But this may also give you a cleaner apples to apples comparison too.
That said... a 60L main body pack like the Levity or Exos stripped of brain... may present a good 'training' pack to help you get used to carrying all your gear in the main body and give you space to work out loading issues or packing if you feel it's needed as you work on that style of packing.
On the flipside... the nice thing about commercial packs is they go on sale. So you can often own a small quiver easily enough.
I have a talon 22 and a talon 33 for quick summer weekends.
An Exos 38 (2017) for shoulder or winter weekends.
Most of the winter stuff I do is quick overnighters with hammock groups so I can make those packs work fine.
I also have several homemade packs for various things and a kid carrier pack for that thing.
Having a small pile to reach for lets you practice a few different styles as well. Bought on clearance and with coupons that pile of Osprey's cost me less than a single full price pack.
The 22L might sound insane, but a summer overnighter with a neo-air, summer quilt, and no cook food fits fine.
A 33L lets you round it into a weekend, carry more shelter or even sneak in a fast winter trip.
And on...and on. Those experiments though can inform your other gear choices and pack styles for longer trips.
With SUL packs... having a full pack is also a form of 'frame'. So higher to mid volume, half filled packs can also carry very poorly... making small volume packs more useful for small duration trips.
Finally- I'm throwing out Osprey because most of us are familiar with them.
I was not impressed with the 2018 line up... but it is what it is.
Old standby's like Gossamer Gear and ULA have shifted a bit with the market and feature creep leaves them on par with commercial packs IMO. Hyperlight are good packs with a great reputation... but I'll take my pile of packs for the money vs a bomber cuben pack.
And most important of all- I love Altra Shoes. But hate Brooks. A guy with different feet than me says the opposite.
Osprey fits most, but not all. Gregory may fit you better... and that would make it the better pack.
Neither may fit, making XYZ brand the greatest pack on the planet.
Shoes and packs.
If it doesn't fit- it's the crappiest product on the planet no matter what the specs, reviews, or a long haired jackhole has to say.
Quick thought... I've never built an Arc clone but a trick I have used for something similar is some pieces of milk jug or pop bottle (thin plastic). A dollar store cutting board can be ideal. So long as it stays flexible and not too rigid.
If you layer some 1/8" or 1/16" skin foam with the thin sheets of plastic you can create a much better pad to deflect sharp objects. A glue up of plastic/thin foam/plastic then 1/4 or 3/8" CCF can do it.
This may be a good way to assemble a custom lumbar pad for you when the pack goes back into rotation. Make two... you can drill out one for a lighter version if you want to try it.
It's very hard finding good foams to work with as a small vendor... this is a good trick to create a mixed density foam capable of doing the job.
And yar... one of the cool (and mildly perplexing things to me) is that people can start as a UL long distance hiker now.
I'm a family camper/scout so that's my background originally.
I sell gear to scouts, hunters, bushcrafters, weekend warriors, casual backpackers, family car campers, birders, anglers... and LD hikers, ounce counters and the occasional FKT minded gram weenie.
The lines are getting blurrier... but there are still some very hardwired design ideas and choices that may preclude one user group from reaping all the benefits discovered by another user group.
Dogwood might debate how to pack a pack with me as violently as a lifetime scoutmaster would at a camporee... and they would both be right.
If the OP is at a 22lb baseweight, they need a pack that can handle heavy loads. This elImnates 95% of the cottage companies. I have an Arc Blast and I never exceed 25lbs and it is a great riding pack. The biggest problem Zpacks went and did was overstating their max load limits. They are a UL company and buyers should be approaching the company’s gear with that mindset. By overstating their max loads, they are setting up a lot of newbies for failure. As for the packs themselves, the bag fabric is never the issue that the majority of people complain about. It’s the frame and stay system, the hipbelt, the twisting shoulder straps...everything but the bag fabric (DCF or gridstop).
Last edited by capehiker; 07-19-2018 at 12:52.
Sage advice for anyone ^^^
I went with the Osprey Aura 50 because it correlated with the amount of gear I carry in my Arc Haul...similar main body volume sizes and I knew exactly how my gear fit in the Arc Haul...and the Aura fits the gear the same (both around 48l). Even the hipbelt pockets on the Aura are big enough for my camera on one side and my lunch/snacks on the other (a problem other Osprey packs seem to have). I even managed to figure out how to add my Arc Haul mesh pockets to the Aura to add some of the space I use the most on the Haul.
But as Just Bill mentioned...fit and comfort is paramount. Most backpacks in almost every line-up hurt my lower back with the pressure of where the hip belt wings attach or slide through a sleeve...there always feels like a bulge there and it puts pressure on my spine and pelvis and makes me miserable. Only ZPacks Arc belts (with padding) that wrap around my waist and the Aura (and older Exos, not the new one) that put zero padding but lots of mesh there feel comfortable to me. I tried a ULA Circuit because everyone raved about them...I hated it and just couldn't find a comfortable carry and was so glad to go back to my Arc Haul which felt like heaven.
As far as the carry goes I find that I prefer to get the pack slightly off my back with the ventilation panels. The ULA Circuit felt awkward and TOO close to me and I felt unbalanced. This is an oxymoron, as JB mentions above, because packs with an Arc or mesh ventilation actually push the pack away from your center of mass...but it works for me. I also had an REI employee point out that I wear my pack "too low" but again I wear it where it is comfortable...and as a woman that is having the pack sit directly on and the belt wrap over my hip bones (that's what they're there for right?)
Packs (and shoes) can make or break a trip. I love my Salomons but I have narrow feet...they certainly aren't suitable for everyone.
Like many long distance hikers- you got no ass. That long lean body type is a bit of nightmare to fit overall really.
My ass is real purdy and quite voluminous with just the right amount of mass to form a sweet shelf for my pack.
For me- the butt bumper (lumbar pad) works great when worn a little lower than REI would like you to wear it and I don't need much of a hip belt as my ass does most of the work.
For those of you with no ass- you hit the nail on the head... what you need is less contoured/bulky padding and more lightly padded surface area. More like an ace bandage than a belt.
Primarily that's why folks are not liking the minimal little wings on something like the Levity... there isn't enough surface area to provide a solid connection of hip belt to non-existent hips and ass common among LD hikers of both sexes.
By contrast though... that oversized/overpadded hip belt can create enough surface area when worn a size too big and cranked down slightly.
Something I learned in scouts as the quartermaster trying to fit gear for young lads; don't be afraid to try on packs made for the other sex.
The days of 'pink washing' mens gear are over and the women's gear is truly different, hell half the time the women's gear has better colors when the mens line up shifts towards 'extreme' reds or greens the women's tend to be more subdued and better toned for my woodland tastes.
That fact is handy for members of both sexes.
Don't look at the Exos/Eja or Atmos/Aura as mens or womens S/M/L.
Look at them as the same pack in six different sizes.
What matters most is fit, and being willing to look at the full line up of a given pack can be very handy if you're hard to fit.
And if you're hard to fit you should probably shop in person regardless.
And for those on a budget; women's gear is more readily found on clearance. I have used a dozen different women's sleeping bags and products over the years.
In fact the women's neo-air is better than the unisex for many applications.
So long as you are not compressing the fill- bags tend to be overfilled and cut well in women's models... which gets you more bang for your buck as a male on top of it.
Craftsmanship may be better at times too as women in general pay better attention and the bag design itself is more complicated (requiring better seamsters to sew it).
I assume you are talking to me here...lol. Decent ass for my frame, but yeah, not much to me in general. Thank God I'm a woman as without the hips I'd have nothing for the pack rest on! How do guys do it?
The Aura in medium frame is perfect for me...right up until the hip belt doesn't fit. I have to move the adjustable wings in all the way until the buckles are almost hidden. I'm an awkward fit, like you said...long and lean with a torso that is long compared to my height (19" and 5'5 and 115#). I much prefer the longer belt that gives me more padding further around my waist which is why I wear a medium belt on my Arc Haul vs the small which technically should fit....again, also because I wear it lower than the "correct" place.
The wings on the Levity and the new Exos were not fun, especially when the Exos is still supposed to be capable of carrying 30lbs. I thought the belt on the new Exos had less support than the Arc Haul and just was NOT comfortable...plus whose bright (read idiotic) idea was it to remove the hip belt pockets?
Joe makes the perfect no hip or ass LD hiker posterboy... one reason I think so many like his pack fit.
The other thing Joe and a few others get right too is selling separate hip belts... while there are some roughly standard proportions torso length and hip belt are not really two measurements that work together well in a standard s/m/l format.
Young men fit well in women's packs because of the short torso.
Tall women with lean builds fit well in men's packs...so worth a try when you get a chance just to see.
Don't quote me as there were many 2018 changes that didn't make a ton of sense... but often men's hipbelts don't wrap as far forward as women's styles.
So you may have luck on that front as well (or find a better fit in the men's small hipbelt while maintaining the longer torso you need).
FWIW- my wife is basically your size with a shorter torso but a bit hippy (she's 119lbs so guess there's the extra 4lbs, lol).
Despite my UL desires I couldn't get her to go for anything but the Aura (AG style).
Course she has separated abs (DR) from bearing my filthy spawn... so wasn't worth messing around with anything less when you got no abs to support your core.
A tip for fellas with a belly too
Having your own internal frame (ab muscles) is often a key component to frameless or UL frame pack working well for you.
I tried the men's version...no joy as the belt was actually longer. My Exos in the unisex medium fits great though. I made the women's version work fine...just have to bury the buckles. I thought about adding some yoga mat padding in between the mesh and the pockets if I can wiggle my hand in there but haven't needed to do that yet...might need to rethink it if I lose any more weight (which I am apt to do on any multi-day hike).Joe makes the perfect no hip or ass LD hiker posterboy... one reason I think so many like his pack fit.
The other thing Joe and a few others get right too is selling separate hip belts... while there are some roughly standard proportions torso length and hip belt are not really two measurements that work together well in a standard s/m/l format.
Young men fit well in women's packs because of the short torso.
Tall women with lean builds fit well in men's packs...so worth a try when you get a chance just to see.
Don't quote me as there were many 2018 changes that didn't make a ton of sense... but often men's hipbelts don't wrap as far forward as women's styles.
So you may have luck on that front as well (or find a better fit in the men's small hipbelt while maintaining the longer torso you need).
FWIW- my wife is basically your size with a shorter torso but a bit hippy (she's 119lbs so guess there's the extra 4lbs, lol).
Despite my UL desires I couldn't get her to go for anything but the Aura (AG style).
Course she has separated abs (DR) from bearing my filthy spawn... so wasn't worth messing around with anything less when you got no abs to support your core.
A tip for fellas with a belly too
Having your own internal frame (ab muscles) is often a key component to frameless or UL frame pack working well for you.
Well so much fer that theory then... been a year since we fitted my wife.
Sounds like the 2018 series is nobodies friend and they don ruint em all.
Just sold my arc haul zip after a few hundred miles on it. I usually carried between 20-25 lbs over 2-5 days at a time. The short torso was a tad too small, even with the adjustments I could make, causing discomfort after about 8-10 hours hiking. The pack is also a bit fussy. I can’t speak to its longevity since I only owned it for 4 months. Nothing broke, snapped or tore. It was in excellent condition. I’ve gone back to a Granite Gear X60, which I snagged from Massdrop.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Visual analogy of an Arc Haul loaded with 40 lbs:
Sure, you can do it, but they ain't really made for it.
The Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter ~ Cam "Swami" Honan of OZ
they must not have 19.95 home depot truck rentals
You have won the internet for today.Visual analogy of an Arc Haul loaded with 40 lbs:
Sure, you can do it, but they ain't really made for it.
That is perfect!
That pic is perfect and spot on. Lol.
I'm in love with that car!
Getting into myself. JB actually the ZP Arc Blast or Arc Haul don't fit well into my hiking style, hiking numbers, diversity of hikes(off trail routes), and durability, wt, and budget goals 85-90% of the time. I've only had two Arc Blasts(one current design). With the $375 price tag(the way I set mine up w/ added on hip belts) with the volume being similar the wt is actually more than the ULA CDT(the way I strip mine) which is used 50% of my hikes. Even if adding in a pack liner that only adds under 2 oz so I'm now at or very slightly less wt than an Arc Blast pack wt....and I'm not dropping anywhere near $375 do re mi. I get 5000 sometimes a bit more off and on trail miles on one ULA CDT. That includes abrasive canyoneering which I wouldn't regularly do with a ZP or even HMG pack in their standard DC wts. I DO NOT get that diversity and amount of usage from a ZP Arc Blast. Pack failure on remote non highly maintained single track is not acceptable. The $375 cha change comes around too often for my tastes. At those pack prices I curtail usage of ZP packs for my goals. Like you said, I roll my savings into funding hikes NOT buying the currently most popular "UL" gear! Most times I don't desire a frame. That's just something else that can go wrong(especially a ZP pack) and add wt. The MLD Burn being used about 25-30% of the time. IMHO if the ULA CDT at only $145 fits your style and abilities it's one of the best UL pack purchases available considering the stratospheric price tags of Dyneema Composite sacks like HMG and ZP. I'd say the same for several other non DC UL packs from GG, etc. I dont see either of those companies(ZP or HMG) packs all that ultra light for maintained single track like the AT or PCT anyhow in how I or most others trick them out. What I like most about the Arc Blast and Haul is the airflow on the back and the ability to have a frame if your kit wt and volume and personal physicality demand it. The highly WR seam taped quality is nice but there are ways to tweak that in with a pack made of Robic or DX with no appreciable wt gain. SO where are the great advantages? ZP Logo? DC? Pushing a ULer' hubris? Showing how much you can shop, spend, or follow the "UL" online crowd chitchatting it up?
As said earlier by Starchild base wts of 22 lbs can lead into trouble eventually overtaxing the wt specs and intended design of the Arc Blast and Haul if one is not accustomed to reducing consumable wts on 5day + trips which is HIGHLY likely considering the OP is sharing a 22 lb base wt. Is that a customary base wt for the OP? Most PCT and CDT Thrus using a Arc Blast have base wts much lower. AND, are more UL evolved. I would be careful in considering load limits for either pack. i'd take ZP's specs to read the Arc Blast CAN haul UP TO 35 lbs. The Arc Haul specs to be read as CAN haul UP TO 40 lbs. Just because a UL manufacturer says something can be done doesnt mean it should be done all the time by all people. AS JB said earlier, and to which I'd say is a sound rec, dont max out the wt specs of the Blast or Haul 80% of the time. It'll be tougher on the pack and most folks bods if you do!
Now, can the Arc haul handle 35-40 lbs? Sure. For how long? I dont know. For each person maxing out the specs? I dont know.
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