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  1. #141
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    I'll respond to Bob, TravisRex, and Violent Green all in one post. I don't know anything about Structural Elements and it's nice to hear that Road ID is a local company to Cincy. I just think there's a way to do things AFTER the fact to minimize the visual and social impact on the trail. The term "hike your own hike" gets used a lot in the trail community and I'm a staunch defender of it because of course my wife hiked the AT in a VERY unique way. I just think if your hike encroaches on the experience of others, it's detrimental to the trail and some of the positive vibe that's being generated on social media and back in Cincy is being negated by a thru hiker or day hiker rolling their eyes and thinking "good grief." As for the documentary stuff, the AT has a "no drone" policy and commercial use permits are required and someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think that has been universally ignored by all of these film crews and sponsors making promotional videos. I'm not saying it's done intentionally but ignorance isn't an excuse. For the record, I LOVE Harvey's personal morning videos. And I certainly get focusing on the NOBO splits more than the SOBO and appreciate what y'all are saying about wishing you would have done more recon. Violent Green, I don't really agree with your statement. One because it's sort of dismissive of hikers when the reality is Jen "hiked" 3-3.5 miles consistently when Harvey and Scott "ran" 2.5 or less at times, especially Scott through the Whites. I'm not really sure how String Bean would define himself but I'd call him a hybrid and I think that's the category best suited for these particular FKTs. Certainly the young, elite runners (I'd but String Bean in that category) have fresh legs and are hungry. But most of them are not used to being uncomfortable for more than a hundred miler. I'd love to see Kilian or Jim Walmsley go after the A.T. next year (I'd beg Jen to let me support either one of them) and I think they have the TALENT to shave significant time off. But I'm not sure how they'd handle the grind and logistics are huge, too. 20-30 mile stretches between roads necessitate your being comfortable sleeping on the trial. How would those guys do with that? I don't think Harvey, Karl, or Scott liked it very much, whereas thru hikers embrace it. I think somebody like Jared Campbell or some of the other Barkley finishers are better suited for the long distance FKTs than guys and gals used to showering after they crush a hundred in 15 hours. Matt Kirk, are you out there? What do you think? Or if Karl can figure out his password, maybe he can chime in. One other thing... the heat Harvey had this week sucked, but Jen had several 100+ days in Maryland and got hypothermia from a sleet storm on Franconia Ridge, Scott got soaked in Vermont and Andrew Thompson literally got blown off a mountain on one his attempts. Everybody has weather and everybody has injuries. It's part of it. Having said all that, I like whoever used the word "affable" to describe Harvey. He really does seem like a great guy and I hope to meet him some day.

  2. #142

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    Finishing the trail knowing a failed FKT is imminent speaks volumes about Harvey and that he didn’t quit or get off trail

  3. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by Violent Green View Post
    Rest assured, the days of long distance hikers setting AT FKTs are over. We're not even seeing the elite ultra runners attempting these (no offense to anyone). The only FKT set by an elite was Francois D'Haene who utterly murdered the previous JMT record.
    As an ultrarunner myself, I don't agree with this. Ultrarunners are suited to going quickly across a single day (or two day) event. Being able to grind out 50+ mile days for over a month is such a different skill set regardless of how fast you're moving. 50 miles is 50 miles no matter how fast you're going.

    Harvey competed in the Marathon des Sables (a 6 day, 250 km stage race across the Sahara) a few years back and had a great day on day 1 and a pretty solid day 2 and was near the top 10 (7th and 11th I think? I don't have the stats in front of me and I'm too lazy to go find them). But he couldn't recover after day 3 and struggled the remaining days. That same year, a multiple time winner of MDS came out to run Badwater and ended up dropping fairly early on. The skills that make you an elite in one arena don't transfer over to another.

    Without opening a can of worms too much, it's the same reason why you don't see Kenyans dominating ultramarathons including road ultras like JFK 50. There are other reasons (lack of prize money for instance) but it's a different skill set to run for 15 hours than being able to run supremely fast for 2 hours.

    Runners only have a speed advantage when the terrain supports running. After that, everyone is a hiker.

  4. #144

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    Brew - totally understand where you're coming from. We had the wife of a thru-hiker leave a comment on Facebook chastising the crew for the fact that they had a table set up near the can spread with food for Harvey as her husband came hiking through and was extremely disappointed that the crew didn't offer him anything. She later left another comment that when Harvey caught up to her husband, he was impressed that Harvey slowed and walked with him for a mile or so asking questions about how his hike was going, his life back home, and other topics.

    The first comment made me cringe a bit - I can only imagine what a full table of food must look like to a thru hiker in PA. And I don't know if the crew has been offering food, water, or supplies on a regular basis (I do know there was a hiker who got some anti-chafe stuff at one point). I like to think that they are.

    At Badwater one year, late in the race Harvey was running near a guy whose crew had run out of ice, not something you want to see in the desert. Harvey asked us to pull up to his crew as soon as we could and give them as much ice as we could spare. Harvey and Dan were battling for 2nd place at the time, but the competition was less important than helping another runner out.

    So I like to believe the crew is helping when they can, and not making a big production of massage tables or full food tables. And hopefully they are doing what they can to make the time on the trail a positive experience for everyone, not just one runner.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violent Green View Post
    A couple reasons for that, I think. Firstly, ultramarathon running is a reasonably young sport. It's only become somewhat mainstream in the last 10-15 years.

    Secondly, and probably most importantly, the ultramarathon culture in the US is decidedly a Western thing. Hardrock, Western States, Leadville, etc. Jurek doing the AT gave it some publicity, I think.

    Rest assured, the days of long distance hikers setting AT FKTs are over. We're not even seeing the elite ultra runners attempting these (no offense to anyone). The only FKT set by an elite was Francois D'Haene who utterly murdered the previous JMT record.
    I'm not an ultra marathon runner. I'm not even a runner. I barely qualify as a hiker. As a biochemistry professor, I am interested in the biochemistry of energy transduction. I'm also a bit of a number and map geek (hence the spreadsheets). However I just don't see this. Based on what I've seen, the mistake that ultramarathoners have made is to assume they can extrapolate what they do in a day or a 210 mile trail (e.g. JMT) to one that is 10 times longer and probably more rugged. I recall a few comments by people who said something along the lines of "The FKT for the AT is less than 50 MPD - Heck I can do that". And they can, for several days.

    Quote Originally Posted by chknfngrs View Post
    Finishing the trail knowing a failed FKT is imminent speaks volumes about Harvey and that he didn’t quit or get off trail
    I agree. As I recall, the FKT web site includes notable hikes that were not FKTs. I appreciate that.

    BTW, As of this morning, Harvey's deficit is 89 miles over Stringbean. He is approaching a two day deficit. He finished day 35 only 16 miles ahead of where Stringbean finished day 33.

  6. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by TravisRex View Post
    I can only imagine what a full table of food must look like to a thru hiker in PA. And I don't know if the crew has been offering food, water, or supplies on a regular basis (I do know there was a hiker who got some anti-chafe stuff at one point). I like to think that they are.
    That was a tricky thing, because it sure looked like a trail angel setup, but giving out Harvey's supplies meant his were drained more, so that meant more trips into unfamiliar towns for the crew, and less rest. A trail angel might come out a few weekend days, but isn't out there 45+ days in a row treating any hiker than came through. I brought all my own food and drink with me so that I wouldn't deplete his supplies. Once in awhile I was offered something like oatmeal, and accepted, and some of my own supplies were used for Harvey in return.

    What I did was to greet any approaching hiker with a "Hi, how are ya? We're supporting a guy who's going for the speed record, maybe you've heard of Harvey?" leaving it unsaid that we were not trail angels. It wasn't my stuff to give out so I never offered. If they kept sniffing around, I walked away and let his dad handle it. I know that some hikers got stuff. If someone was hurting they weren't getting turned away. But it's just not realistic to expect the crew to support Harvey AND be trail angels every day. While Harvey was on the trail, the crew was resting, getting more supplies, cleaning up , and setting up for his next time in, not also serving other people. I'm sure it was disappointing to some hikers. Not sure how to better handle it without putting a lot more stress on the crew, namely Harvey's dad.

  7. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by TravisRex View Post
    As an ultrarunner myself, I don't agree with this. Ultrarunners are suited to going quickly across a single day (or two day) event. Being able to grind out 50+ mile days for over a month is such a different skill set regardless of how fast you're moving. 50 miles is 50 miles no matter how fast you're going.

    Harvey competed in the Marathon des Sables (a 6 day, 250 km stage race across the Sahara) a few years back and had a great day on day 1 and a pretty solid day 2 and was near the top 10 (7th and 11th I think? I don't have the stats in front of me and I'm too lazy to go find them). But he couldn't recover after day 3 and struggled the remaining days. That same year, a multiple time winner of MDS came out to run Badwater and ended up dropping fairly early on. The skills that make you an elite in one arena don't transfer over to another.

    Without opening a can of worms too much, it's the same reason why you don't see Kenyans dominating ultramarathons including road ultras like JFK 50. There are other reasons (lack of prize money for instance) but it's a different skill set to run for 15 hours than being able to run supremely fast for 2 hours.

    Runners only have a speed advantage when the terrain supports running. After that, everyone is a hiker.
    As an ultrarunner myself, I don't agree. The old line used to be that Western runners would never hold an AT FKT. All that running wouldn't transfer to the trail. Terrain is too tough. How many ultra runners have held the FKT now? 4 or 5?

    Everyone is going to power hike the hills at 3-3.5mph. It's the other 60% of the trail(plus better logistics and planning eventually) where runners are going to start pushing out the FKT even further. I mean, we're already to the point where solely hiking it at 3mph will require, what, nearly 17 hours per day of movement? We're going to see more and more running. No way around it.

  8. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by brew View Post
    I'll respond to Bob, TravisRex, and Violent Green all in one post. I don't know anything about Structural Elements and it's nice to hear that Road ID is a local company to Cincy. I just think there's a way to do things AFTER the fact to minimize the visual and social impact on the trail. The term "hike your own hike" gets used a lot in the trail community and I'm a staunch defender of it because of course my wife hiked the AT in a VERY unique way. I just think if your hike encroaches on the experience of others, it's detrimental to the trail and some of the positive vibe that's being generated on social media and back in Cincy is being negated by a thru hiker or day hiker rolling their eyes and thinking "good grief." As for the documentary stuff, the AT has a "no drone" policy and commercial use permits are required and someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think that has been universally ignored by all of these film crews and sponsors making promotional videos. I'm not saying it's done intentionally but ignorance isn't an excuse. For the record, I LOVE Harvey's personal morning videos. And I certainly get focusing on the NOBO splits more than the SOBO and appreciate what y'all are saying about wishing you would have done more recon. Violent Green, I don't really agree with your statement. One because it's sort of dismissive of hikers when the reality is Jen "hiked" 3-3.5 miles consistently when Harvey and Scott "ran" 2.5 or less at times, especially Scott through the Whites. I'm not really sure how String Bean would define himself but I'd call him a hybrid and I think that's the category best suited for these particular FKTs. Certainly the young, elite runners (I'd but String Bean in that category) have fresh legs and are hungry. But most of them are not used to being uncomfortable for more than a hundred miler. I'd love to see Kilian or Jim Walmsley go after the A.T. next year (I'd beg Jen to let me support either one of them) and I think they have the TALENT to shave significant time off. But I'm not sure how they'd handle the grind and logistics are huge, too. 20-30 mile stretches between roads necessitate your being comfortable sleeping on the trial. How would those guys do with that? I don't think Harvey, Karl, or Scott liked it very much, whereas thru hikers embrace it. I think somebody like Jared Campbell or some of the other Barkley finishers are better suited for the long distance FKTs than guys and gals used to showering after they crush a hundred in 15 hours.
    Jared Campbell - You mean the winner at Hardrock 100 a few years ago? You're kinda proving my point for me, Brew.

    Not trying to be dismissive of Jen or other "hikers" at all. If anything it goes to show how important logistics and planning are to an AT FKT. Scott's FKT seemed pretty poorly planned(compared to Jen's - kudos) and he still managed to eek out the FKT. Where would he have finished if the planning was on point?

    Ultimately, there are only 24 hours in a day. All other factors the same, it's going to take more and more speed. Some runners won't have the mental aspect of it, but some will.

    PS - Love the book!

  9. #149
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    Not to belittle the man, but Jared's Hardrock finish time was over 27 hours, 4 hours behind today's winners, and it was the fastest of all his finishes. He's not elite in the conventional super fast way that would have him topping the podiums. Which I think is what Brew was referring too.

    A 16/7 hour day, at a 3.5mph hiking pace isn't out the realms of possibility. Especially supported carrying minimal gear. So the potential to average mid 50 mile days walking is there, still a ways above the average mileage of current fkts.

  10. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrClahn View Post
    Not to belittle the man, but Jared's Hardrock finish time was over 27 hours, 4 hours behind today's winners, and it was the fastest of all his finishes. He's not elite in the conventional super fast way that would have him topping the podiums. Which I think is what Brew was referring too.

    A 16/7 hour day, at a 3.5mph hiking pace isn't out the realms of possibility. Especially supported carrying minimal gear. So the potential to average mid 50 mile days walking is there, still a ways above the average mileage of current fkts.
    What did JPD, Karl and Jurek average? 3mph or slightly less? If you want to average 3.5mph, 15% faster, for 6 weeks, you're going to need to do some running IMO. Let's just revisit in 5 years and see where it's at. I could always be wrong.

  11. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrClahn View Post
    Not to belittle the man, but Jared's Hardrock finish time was over 27 hours, 4 hours behind today's winners, and it was the fastest of all his finishes. He's not elite in the conventional super fast way that would have him topping the podiums. Which I think is what Brew was referring too.
    PS - It's tough to compare years, but Jared's 2010 time would have put him 6th in 2017's race. About 2.5 hours behind Killian's 1st place finish. Jared was/is a very good runner. I will grant you that he favors climbing races.

  12. #152
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    Well, from personal experience I hiked the CDT in 85 days (route was approx 2850 miles), with 17 zeros. 13 of those were spent in hospital or resting after getting rocky Mountain spotted fever. Which meant on moving days I averaged over 40mpd on what was just a casual (ie non fkt) hike. And whilst I broke camp in about 10 minutes in the mornings, I'd usually spent an hour and a half plus in camp in the evenings, and slept as much as my body wanted.

    There's also much "stronger" hikers than me. It's just whether they have the desire to it.

  13. #153

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    Being an ultra runner just means your in top fitness.
    Not even top ultra runners necessarilly succeed

    I met 3 time woman Hardrock champ Darcy Afrika in sierra when she was bailing on a stealth jmt fkt fkt attempt. She was already behind after just 2 days .

    And stringbean blew everyone away.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 07-04-2018 at 23:56.

  14. #154
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    I'm still pretty young so I'm not familiar with the "old line" about western runners never holding the AT FKT. I do think every guy that's gone out to "run" the AT has had a rude awakening in some way or another. I don't remember Karl having a tracker where you could calculate his splits but Scott averaged less than 2 mph through the Whites and I think around 2.5 through most of Maine. He was going a LOT slower than Jen in those stretches. I think Harvey's been 2-2.5 mph the past week or so. I don't disagree that they can't run bigger stretches of the Mid-Atlantic but I'm just not convinced that that's enough to overcome their lack of comfort sleeping on the trail, first hand knowledge and their seeming inability to handle the really tough "unrunnable" terrain well. I guess when I say "hiker" I don't just mean the speed at which their traveling, but that other stuff, too, and that's why I think it would need to be a hybrid thing.

  15. #155
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    Glad you like the book! I need to get a copy. Just kidding.

    I agree logistics and planning are huge. Following with the "hiker" definition in my other post, I'd argue that hikers will ALWAYS have an advantage in the logistics/planning area. Karl did all sorts of recon before his third attempt but still chose to sleep exclusively at roads and I think that was a pretty big handicap.

    As for Jared, yeah he won Hardrock but I'm not sure I'd ever put him in the elite "trail runner" category of guys that win Western States. To me Hardrock's a lot more of a "hybrid" race like Barkley.

    It's worth mentioning that Jen's an ultra runner, too. She just realized she while recovering from shin splints that she could get her miles without having to run and it took a lot less of a toll on her body. Horton kept egging her on to run and she wouldn't do it.

    I'd love to know how much of the trail Joe ran versus hiked, but regardless I'd argue that he's as much of a long-distance hiker as an elite trail runner. The fact that he was self-supported and slept on the trail points to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Violent Green View Post
    Jared Campbell - You mean the winner at Hardrock 100 a few years ago? You're kinda proving my point for me, Brew.

    Not trying to be dismissive of Jen or other "hikers" at all. If anything it goes to show how important logistics and planning are to an AT FKT. Scott's FKT seemed pretty poorly planned(compared to Jen's - kudos) and he still managed to eek out the FKT. Where would he have finished if the planning was on point?

    Ultimately, there are only 24 hours in a day. All other factors the same, it's going to take more and more speed. Some runners won't have the mental aspect of it, but some will.

    PS - Love the book!

  16. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrClahn View Post
    Well, from personal experience I hiked the CDT in 85 days (route was approx 2850 miles), with 17 zeros. 13 of those were spent in hospital or resting after getting rocky Mountain spotted fever. Which meant on moving days I averaged over 40mpd on what was just a casual (ie non fkt) hike. And whilst I broke camp in about 10 minutes in the mornings, I'd usually spent an hour and a half plus in camp in the evenings, and slept as much as my body wanted.

    There's also much "stronger" hikers than me. It's just whether they have the desire to it.
    Congrats on a nice hike. 42mpd is anything but a casual hike to 99.9% of hikers though. There aren't many cranking out that amount of mileage over an entire thru. Swami probably.

  17. #157
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    Pressed sent to early whilst editing that.
    John Z, Heathery, and Joey camps would be the names you might know. But there's enough others. Treeboo, and another English guy named Ben on the CDT both hiked it in under 3 months I think. Candlemaker finished in a little over 100 days, but started in March, going thru a cold and snowy colorado/wyoming in April and may. Twinkletoes, and another guy (whose name Ive forgot) on the AT in 16 went under 80 and 70 days.

    And that's just people I met in my two thru hikes. I have no doubt there's a bunch of people who just like to walk all day. A few of whom if properly motivated could probably set, or at least put in a good challenge, on some of these long fkts.

  18. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by brew View Post
    I agree logistics and planning are huge. Following with the "hiker" definition in my other post, I'd argue that hikers will ALWAYS have an advantage in the logistics/planning area. Karl did all sorts of recon before his third attempt but still chose to sleep exclusively at roads and I think that was a pretty big handicap.

    As for Jared, yeah he won Hardrock but I'm not sure I'd ever put him in the elite "trail runner" category of guys that win Western States. To me Hardrock's a lot more of a "hybrid" race like Barkley.

    I'd love to know how much of the trail Joe ran versus hiked, but regardless I'd argue that he's as much of a long-distance hiker as an elite trail runner. The fact that he was self-supported and slept on the trail points to that.
    There's no reason a runner couldn't have his crew setup on the trail similar to how you guys did. Right? It's just more difficult. If someone chooses to sleep only at roads, my guess is it's because they think they can get the record regardless.

    Meh. The Barkley and Hardrock are pretty darn dissimilar in my book. The Barkley is an adventure race with 80% off trail bushwhacking which is why so few elite runners do it. UTMB is the world's most popular trail race and it has more gain than Hardrock. Each to their own definition of course.

    According to Joe, he ran the downs, flats and some of the ups. If I remember correctly he finished several 50mi days in 11-12 hours. To me, thats a runner, but we would just be arguing semantics at that point.

    But anyway, I don't want to take us too far off course from Harvey's great hike/run. It's all hypothetical. Time will tell. Nice discussion everyone!

  19. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrClahn View Post
    Pressed sent to early whilst editing that.
    John Z, Heathery, and Joey camps would be the names you might know. But there's enough others. Treeboo, and another English guy named Ben on the CDT both hiked it in under 3 months I think. Candlemaker finished in a little over 100 days, but started in March, going thru a cold and snowy colorado/wyoming in April and may. Twinkletoes, and another guy (whose name Ive forgot) on the AT in 16 went under 80 and 70 days.

    And that's just people I met in my two thru hikes. I have no doubt there's a bunch of people who just like to walk all day. A few of whom if properly motivated could probably set, or at least put in a good challenge, on some of these long fkts.
    I do know Heather, Joey and John Z. All strong hikers, and I know there are more of them out there. Swami, Trauma, etc. Until they get the motivation though, we're going to have to watch these ultrarunners make their attempts. Karel Sabbe's up next this month.

  20. #160

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    John Z could never set an FKT on the AT in any category. He doesn’t like the AT and he doesn’t respect it. It’s a trail that he treats as beneath him. He’s a west coast hiker through and through.

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