it's over....
Originally Posted by Lone Wolf
Too bad.
But I expect more and more ultra marathoners to be giving it a shot.
Officially, we're still looking approaching things like he has a chance at getting the record. We've put together a schedule that includes four very long days with the rest similar to the mileage of Jurek/Joe.
Unofficially (and speaking only for myself), the schedule is pretty unrealistic, and I'm starting to work on an end-game that would bring him in at 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 days. At some point the focus will need to shift from pushing as hard as possible to leaving enough in the tank to be able to finish.
Harvey posted a video from the trail yesterday where he was fairly candid about how the trail was different than he expected. I'm sure some/many/most would argue that he was unprepared bordering on naive on what conditions would be like. Warren Doyle has been a fairly consistent presence over on the Facebook page pointing out how Harvey lacks the hiker mindset and providing daily "Reality Checks" on his progress. And I'm sure some are glad to see the record remain with an unsupported hiker rather than a corporate sponsored ultrarunner.
Whether you agree or disagree with how Harvey chose to attack the trail, and whether he was doing things the "right" way or not, I think it's worth taking a moment to appreciate what Harvey has done for the group of people following along with his well-documented route.
We've been encouraging people to run/hike a mile each day since Harvey started, resulting in people logging 9,340 miles "with" Harvey over the first two weeks. The comments are filled with people getting up early to get out before the heat, or adding an extra mile on to the end of their run as the "Harvey mile." For many people this is the first time that they've attempted a daily run/walk streak of getting out and moving every day.
Yesterday, there was a post about an 8-year old girl that Harvey befriended at a race in Cincinnati a few years ago (if you know Harvey, this is nothing unusual. I've run with him before where we'll come up on someone else out running and Harvey will slow down and start talking to them. After a few minutes, they tag along and follow behind like the Pied Piper. I remember one run where it started with 3 of us and ended with 7 people in the group). Her mom wrote to say that she often uses Harvey as an example of how "what may seem impossible, can become possible if you dream big and believe in yourself." The fact that there's an 8 year old girl out there who is seeing on a daily basis Harvey chasing the impossible but believing he can do it, is an incredibly cool moment.
But as someone put it, "Being a nice guy and inspiring people doesn't get you any closer to the end of the trail."
In 13 days, the clock that started 45 days, 12 hours and 15 minutes ago will stop. Harvey will be at the top of Katahdin, or he won't. He will break the record. Or he won't. But regardless of what the clock says when (or if...) he makes it to the summit, it doesn't take away from the effect that he's had on 8-year old AnnaLee or a single mother in Arizona walking on her lunch break because that's the only time in her day where she can be active.
The clock will stop, but the influence of Harvey's attempt will continue on well after 45 days have passed.
It’s a good first effort. I think it’s highly unusual for an ultra runner with little to no hiking/AT experience to go out and beat it the first time. Kind of why Jureks run was so impressive. The true test will be if he comes back and makes changes based on what he’s learned from this first trip.
Reminds me of the woman from Colorado who tried to beat the FKT for the Long Trail. She ended up a full day behind the record and commented something like "I had no idea this trail would be so hard". People who run western trails are in for a shock when they find out what the AT is like. The heat and humidity of a summer attempt doesn't help either. Doing it in cooler months helps from dying of heat stroke, the trade off being less daylight hours.
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Great post, TravisRex. From what I saw in my week with him, Harvey is also getting a lot out of the people experience on the AT, interacting with a lot of hikers, trail angels, and others he sees, plus those who drop in and run with him and crew.
Dude, anyone who goes faster than like 14mpd gets accused of doing the trail "wrong" by jagoffs. Don't sweat any of those people. Hike your own hike.
With the experience all of you are getting doing this, I really hope you guys come back for another go. And seriously, 3rd place or however you end up is still astounding.
Hey y’all. Some of you may recognize my name and some not. My wife Jen set the AT fkt in 2011. I tried to reply to a comment a week or so ago but forgot my password and am such a technology rookie (and busy dad with two kids) that it’s taken me this long to figure it out. First off, congrats to Harvey on a strong attempt. He seems like one of the nicest guys in the world. I’ll throw out an answer and then a couple observations. I’m speaking as a trail runner AND an AT section hiker. Yes, Jen did sleep on the trail quite a bit, sometimes between road crossings which was a huge advantage. (And frankly, something future record attempterd are gonna HAVE to do in the future. And maybe practice if they’re trail runners and are not used to it.) Even at the road crossings we camped out because our highlander was packed with stuff. As for the random thoughts, I continue to be surprised that guys unfamiliar with the trail don’t do their homework a little more and underestimate the trail and previous record setters do grossly. Scott was aiming for 42 days, the trail was a shock to his system and the whites were almost too much for him to overcome. Karl learned a LOT from attempts 1 to 3 and really became an AT fkt expert in that time. Joe had trail experience and talent (like Matt but maybe he just pushed himself more... and was possibly had that much faster. I don’t know). Jen had hiked twice before, once as the women’s record attempt. And we had trail yoga warren Doyle giving us advice literally at every turn, at least in the women’s record and the first two weeks of the overall. If Harvey comes back he’ll obviously have learned a lot. But as some have said, the lessons not over. Based on what’s happened so far, the whites and Maine have the potential to Really kick his butt. And that’s if he Doesn’t have bad weather. The other big thought is, it just seems like a bad idea to have so much sponsorship and attention. He kind of lost me with the massage table at the trailhead. I mean, maybe they were doing trail magic and massaging all the they hikers that cr by. But short of that, it seems a bit over the top. Like when cruise ship tourists flood off the boat and try to pay with US dollars in Rome. It’s a lack of awareness. If you’re gonna do the massage thing, at least do it discreetly. But that’s not what Structural elements wants. Also, it’s probably not the best idea to have a film crew out there documenting everything. Maybe they’re documenting the journey regardless of success but I have a feeling there are some folks at road ID who are bummed and surprised that things are going the way they are. Maybe I’m wrong, but I’m just skeptical of corporations, even (gasp) in the outdoor Industry. such is the nature of big time sponsorships. The companies and publicists have probably never set foot on the trail and it’s in their dna to milk it all. I just think a better balance can be struck between inspiring folks in Cincinnati or wherever and approaching the trail and the trail community with the respect it deserves. None of these guys are bad people. Quite the opposite. (Well, maybe not Karl. 🙂just kidding. I love Karl and have a Ton of respect for the way he came back til he set the record. And for how real he is across the board. But I do think the dust should have settled by now. Guys and gals going after the record have tons of resources for learning about the trail and for approaching it- and the record- with a lot more humility. I hope Harvey has a great rest of his run/hike. He’s an Amazing athlete (and probably person) and it’s been neat to see how many people he’s inspired.
I wonder if last night maybe was an example of how relying on road crossings for overnight stops is problematic. From his tracker, it looks like he reached VT9 around 7:30 PM last night. After that, the map shows 20.6 miles without a road crossing. On previous days he had kept going well beyond 7:30, but I'm guessing he had to stop "early" since he didn't have enough time to make it to the next road crossing and as a result, only put in 33 miles yesterday bringing his current deficit to almost 80 miles over Stringbean's pace. It looks like he maybe has tried to make up for some of that by getting an early 4:30 AM start today.
On the other hand, possibly his low mile days are due in part to some physical problems. Based on today's track, he has been moving constantly from 4:30 AM until now. He got to the next road (the Forest Service road) a little after 12:30 PM, which in the data set I have is 20.6 miles from VT9. So that is 20.6 miles in 8 hours which is about 2.6 MPH. I've not hiked in VT, but the topo maps suggest this section isn't overly difficult by AT standards. Doesn't that seem slow for a world class trail runner moving continuously?
it is very possible he is fading, but some credit needs to be given to the weather. today is probably the coolest it has been in the northeast since friday, and it looks like it is still 88F with 60% humidity where harvey is now. the heat could be catching up to him a bit too.
For a serious supported attempt, I can't see how somebody wouldn't have a crew that would be willing to pack in whatever is needed for them to spend the night in whatever location needed.
In fact, when I played a support role in a fkt once, we had pre-set up camps hiked in for the runner. Many miles from the nearest roads.
Even though this was a corporate sponsored runner , everyone was still volunteers except the coordinator. Basically friends of the runner. The amount of money the corporate sponsor donated was pretty pathetic. Not even a sat phone to coordinate things, which caused a lot of problems due to lack of cell service . Especially when the spot trackers failed. And nobody knew if the runner was still on the attempt or not and they were out camp somewhere without cell service to find out. Using groupies led the people that abandon their post.
And that probably is the rub. You can get enough people together to string out a few hundred miles. A few thousand gets harder without paying them, or having a lot of jobless friends.
Last edited by MuddyWaters; 07-03-2018 at 13:15.
It's a pretty good climb out of Rt9 - 1000 feet in 1.5 miles, most if it in the first 0.8. A net gain of 2200 feet by the time one gets to Glastenbury, with a few 500 foot dips in between. Not horrifically difficult, but in 90 degree heat and high humidity it can be. It's been brutally hot for a week or more now, with little relief in sight. Maybe after Thursday's thunderstorms it will cool down a little. It's amazing he's still on his feet.
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This is an important aspect to think about for future attempts. At first, it sounds almost impossible for Stringbean to have set two FKT's (despite his long distance resume), but when he is carrying his shelter on his back, he can stop whenever he wants.
What Harvey's team should've done was if they get to a road crossing early but the next one is too far, the support crew should've went to the next crossing and hiked towards him until they met. Then camp. I know, I know. I'm backseat quarterbacking. It may also explain why a few days back he had 40 miles done by 4pm and only ended with 47 miles for the day.
That's what I've been thinking all day. With such a strong crew, seems like he could have prepped and approached this much better. More power to Harvey, regardless. He's doing (and attempted) something I'll never be able to do.
Hi Brew, I can't and wouldn't argue with a lot of your points. I just want to comment on a couple things I personally saw during the week I spent crewing and pacing. I only met Harvey once briefly last year before this, just someone who volunteered and wound up staying for most of a week. Just making clear this is a personal response, not coming from Harvey's team, or in any way representing them.
I was there for the first personal massage therapist time. The guy is a personal friend of Harvey's, a running friend, who came out to support him. Maybe it was also part of a sponsorship, I really don't know, but I do know he is a guy that Harvey trusts, and it wasn't a publicity stunt. It happens that Harvey was having serious tendinitis issues when he arrived, so the guy set up a table (actually Harvey's sleeping cot, I think) at the first trail crossing they could catch him and get him back on trail ASAP. This was not a relaxing massage, it was targeted at the specific problem area. It worked well and turned Harvey's day around. Maybe you take issue with the pictures. Oh well. It was part of the trek and one of the crew happened to get some pictures and maybe video. It was really kind of neat, I was in the truck with him racing up a mountain road to catch him, and the therapist was quizzing the person who had run with him earlier that day about exactly how he looked, so he could have a plan on what to focus on and limit time on the cot.
The film crew is not documenting everything. As I understand it, they were out for a day at the start, and the next time was for a couple days while Harvey was in SNP. I don't know what other plans they have and if they've changed with the status of his trek. It was never their plan to be there every day. The short daily video you see is Harvey on his phone. He said he just likes doing it, and it's a brief distraction, once a day for about two minutes. There's a GoPro that's been getting some use. I was never asked to wear it when I was running with him but I know a couple others did take it out.
I also met the RoadID rep, who as I understand it, is also a friend of Harvey's. He's also only been out with him a limited amount of time. Very supportive, even while Harvey was going through a very rough patch, and I saw no interference or demands for him to do more. I can't say anything about how he and the company are viewing the trek now because I'm out of the picture, but I'd be surprised if they aren't still supportive of him finishing, record or not.
So that's my picture. I see an amazing athlete and person going after a very hardy record, which hasn't been lowered that much since Jen did it in 2011. It's been mainly Harvey and his dad, with other friends and random people coming out to help support, and not really a commercial venture, though it's more of one than you and Jen had. I don't know that he'll be writing a book on it though. I would agree he was a little unprepared for some things. If it were me, I'd scope out every road crossing in advance and over-plan every day, and probably decide it's impossible even if I were that caliber of an athlete. Hike your own hike applies to the prep too. I think most everyone would agree that the record is out of reach now, but yet Harvey is still out there every day, making his way to Maine.
Too bad your message didn't get through earlier. It happens you and Jen just spent time in CO with a mutual friend from Cville. She probably agrees more with you than me, but at least she would've (probably) told you I'm not totally full of it!
Bob
Excellent discussion, and I'm enjoying reading all the passionate, well-thought out responses (and trying to give my own kinda-thought out responses). Having been involved with this effort since the planning stages, I agree that there were some planning decisions that the team would love to do differently, and I'll be curious to see if Harvey decides to give this another go in the future.
- The road crossings have been a pain to deal with, including yesterday's decision between 33 and 55 miles, which yes, finally put out the last few embers of a FKT being possible. I realize some of the posts may make it seem like a small army of volunteer crew members, but I was recently looking at the schedule from Day 1 and there was an entire week long section where the only confirmed crew member was his 78-year old father. A lot of the people who have made it down to crew have been spur of the moment decisions - like Bob, or Pete Kostelnick who suddenly was available for five days.
- For better or worse, Harvey went into this intending to sleep in the van most nights and certainly could have spent more time figuring out camping/back-country gear and prioritizing the ability to go xx miles past a road crossing instead of stopping right there. For him the trade-off of comfort won over additional miles. It's a slippery slope once you start getting behind on time/miles/calories/sleep and trying to figure out how to fight your way back. One of the impressive stats was between Day 20 and Day 25, Harvey closed the gap on Stringbean from 41.8 miles behind to 12.6 miles behind averaging 54.55 miles across those days.
- I won't comment on the sponsorship amount (mostly because I don't know the exact details of it) but I do know it's not a huge sum nor was it tied to this attempt specifically. RoadiD is a company based in Covington KY, just across the Ohio River and considered part of the Greater Cincinnati area. Mike's decision to get involved with Harvey was primarily driven by the desire to support a local, world-class athlete, and the sponsorship of Harvey will continue with this year's Badwater race (again, I don't have the exact details of how long the sponsorship will continue, but I know Newton and Clif have supported Harvey since at least 2014, so I would expect this will not be a 1-year deal). But the vast majority of sponsorships aren't huge cash amounts. It's more "Hey if you wear our shirt in some pictures and tag us in some posts, we'll give you a few <insert product here>." For Badwater, he was able to provide a free pair of Newton's for each crew member, but we weren't exactly dining out on the company expense account.
- I can understand the push-back to the publicity, whether video, book, or social media. "Made to be broken" recently showed up on Facebook documenting Karl's run, and North was published earlier this year. Part of publicizing these attempts (besides yes, eyeballs for sponsors) is to share the "story behind the story." We made a decision to be open and document as much as we could - partially because we all think it's interesting and exciting to see. Even if I remove myself from the team, I would still be excited to be able to read multiple posts a day about the attempt, or see a short video that Harvey is taking along the trail. But that's me. I can see how others may roll their eyes or find it annoying or a distraction. What you've seen from Harvey and the team is really how Harvey is - open, affable, honest. We talked about not including a link to the spot tracker, or delaying it a day, but that's not who we are or who Harvey is. Harvey loves connecting to people and sharing adventures.
- As far as the other crew members, all of us our giving our time for this. Tracey, who coordinates the posts on Facebook and elsewhere on social media. Matt, Louis, and myself working with logistics, planning, whatever else we can. Harvey asked early on if I would be able to come out "for a week or two," but "real life" prevented that from being an option. Having a dedicated, active crew who are there for extended periods of time would go a big way towards making future record attempts possible.
- I'll admit we didn't reach out to many people during the planning of this, and it's one of the things in retrospect I wish we would have done differently. Additionally, we've focused much of our attention on the NOBO record holders, which meant that Joey, Karl, and JPD didn't get nearly as many mentions in the things that we were posting. It wasn't because JPD was a "walker" or for any other reason than it was simple logistics. It's easier to say "Harvey is xx miles behind Stringbean" on day 3 because they were going the same direction.
- I'm extremely curious to see the reaction to Karel Sabbe's upcoming attempt - an extremely accomplished athlete yet with the same lack of knowledge (at least as far I can tell).
- The FKT dream is over for Harvey. We've put together a couple of additional schedules that will get him to the finish, but well after the needed time. As I noted above, we'll see if there is a second attempt made in the future.
And just to be clear, there have been no shortage of moments when I've thrown up my hands in disgust with this attempt and some of the decisions that were made.
It's interesting to note that most of the AT FKT setters were long distance hikers first and foremost, not ultra maraton runners.
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A couple reasons for that, I think. Firstly, ultramarathon running is a reasonably young sport. It's only become somewhat mainstream in the last 10-15 years.
Secondly, and probably most importantly, the ultramarathon culture in the US is decidedly a Western thing. Hardrock, Western States, Leadville, etc. Jurek doing the AT gave it some publicity, I think.
Rest assured, the days of long distance hikers setting AT FKTs are over. We're not even seeing the elite ultra runners attempting these (no offense to anyone). The only FKT set by an elite was Francois D'Haene who utterly murdered the previous JMT record.
It's been a real pleasure following this attempt and the up to date thoughts and preparations from TravisRex
Thanks!
Don't let your fears stand in the way of your dreams
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