the dreaded double post arghhhhh
This brings up an interesting point. Since the honored tradition is to hike the FKT attempt the way the current holder did, what is the Kennebec crossing for supported and unsupported? How did Stringbean do it?
I’m glad you chimed in and reinforced how crazy it can be and how unpredictable the releases are. I wanted to give a disclaimer or something. 🙂 Purists like warren Love fording but I think the ferry’s there for good reason.
I also don’t hold it against Karl or Scott for hiring a private ferry. I know precedent was to take the AT ferry but I think thats a grey area. I mean, AT fkt junkies would know but not necessarily western trail runners. I also think a guy like Scott (or Karl if he’d been NOBO) are gonna gut it out and make it happen private ferry or not. Having said that, I also think the fact that string bean waited to take the official ferry makes his record that much more insane. The ferry’s a moot point now, I’d say, but to use an expression i used earlier, in general the dust should have settled and any legit fkt attempter should know how to do things. Or that if they don’t (ie, cutting out a burn section or yellow blazing around it), their fkt will be questioned or have an asterisk. It’s not their fault, it’s just tough nuts, like weather in the whites.
What do y’all think? I’m not as much of an “expert” as Matt, Karl, Joey camps, probably some of you. the more we talk about this stuff, the poorer the excuses will be going forward. Incidentally Jen wrote an fkt etiquette article on thetrek.com that came out yesterday. I’d link to it but I’m typing with one finger on my phone while the kids fall asleep. 👍
My neighbor did a 90 day thru hike in 1985, with Limmer boots no less. He forded the river and said he ended up over a mile down stream and getting up and over the bank where he ended up was not easy. He turned his pack into a floatation aid with a trash bag sealed inside. He had a large Gregory pack with not much left in it at that point, so plenty of space to fill up with air.Originally Posted by D2maine
Follow slogoen on Instagram.
In Tajikistan, boys learn to cross rivers by killing a goat, skinning it, sewing it up the skin, and inflating it like a balloon.
And FWIW, as of day 40, Harvey is 77.7 miles behind Stringbean was on day 40, or 7.2 miles behind where Stringbean was on day 38.
Link to article by yer missus.
https://thetrek.co/fkt-etiquette-spo...r-pharr-davis/
As she points out simply- do your homework. As discussed before, this 'sport' is new so a bit of misstep and confusion is to be expected but as you point out... there is more info than ever and less firm ground than ever before for any excuses to stand on.
The ferry is pretty simple I think.
One of the most basic and fundamental rules is to follow the official trail. The ferry is part of the official trail. Use it moving forward.
As fer hiring a private ferry. One could easily argue that on a supported FKT it's just another form of support.
You could go a step further and argue that hiring a private ferry ensures your attempt does not interfere with the experience of other hikers... though I think that is a bit thin.
You could also argue that it removes a variable to keep the FKT 'even'. Much as Bink argued that catching a hitch or not could introduce an unpredictable advantage or disadvantage... getting stuck on the bank for 12 hours or rolling up and hopping in the canoe with no line or delay is an unpredictable advantage. Not a theoretical one either when a mere 12 hours or so separate Jen, Scott and Karl.
Technically Jen hired a private ferry too. Or maybe private tugboat is more accurate.
All that said; the current overall time was set by a person who used the official ferry. And one who had to wait 12 hours to do so.
The last bit of thin ice left to skate on I think has melted. If a self-supported hiker can figure out how to stay on the official route, set a safe example, use the service provided AND still shave a day one could argue that attempting to circumvent the ferry to gain an advantage is just plain cheatin.
The goal is never to **** on those who came before you. So nothing negative should be ascribed to Jen, Scott, or Karl. Or Warren hisself if'n you want to go back to his pioneering record.
However the goal is also to at minimum match, if not improve upon the standards set by those who came before you. To that end, falling back on fording or a private ferry would be a step backwards.
Trail First: The ATC provides the ferry and considers it the official route.
Stringbean used it, set the overall FKT, and proved that it is not an undue burden to impose on future attempts.
That 'undue burden' is a standard Peter Bakwin likes to use when discussing any 'rules' or guidelines.
Jen does a good job of addressing the real issue popping up and the underlying issue with FKT's on our big trails; Trail First.
Admire them or not, there is nothing so special about an FKT that it should impact the trail in a negative way. The closer to the trail itself and cleaner your impact the better. If anything an FKT should set an even higher standard of respect and responsibility to the trail because of it's public nature.
Folks here toss around the word 'ambassador'. I think it's perhaps going a bit too far to demand one take on the burden of that role, but it sure does make life easier for everyone if a participant assumes that role.
On a selfish level- I haven't read it yet... but I'd guess Jurek addresses in his book how a simple misstep can overshadow all the good and positive attention one attempts to bring to a trail with a FKT.
He is such a fine person that I think we all (as a trail community) really missed an opportunity to both inspire and bring more people together thru his effort.
On a trail wide level- If the trail does not come first, then the FKT itself will not continue. Even now I privately debate if one should start/stop the hike at Abol Bridge. Tensions with Baxter State Park are high, and the impact of this tension for the trail as a whole is quite real. It's unfair to lay all that at the feet of the occasional FKT that passes through as it's the flood of hikers overall using the AT that is the actual issue. Though it can be hard to tell which is the proverbial drop of champagne that breaks the camel's back.
Speaking of ambassadors:
Sincere thanks once again to Jennifer for stepping up. Defining and addressing these issues is critical, including the growing impact of publicity pollution, a term she coined?
I was in talks after last year about publishing a similar FKT etiquette piece; but in truth nobody wants to hear from a yowling jackass desk jockey. The message needs to come from a holder/participant.
I'm glad Jen learnt to cuss in her latest book from time to time. A good swear or two balanced with passion and plainspeaking goes a long way.
Thanks again for flexing your unique voice and putting the trail first.
"At the end of the day, it is important to remember that despite different resumes and approaches, and regardless of whether we want to set an FKT, thru hike, section hike, or picnic on the AT we are all on the same team, or at least in the same conference. We all need to work together to share healthy dialogue and respectful debate so that we can have a better understanding of one another, trail culture, and conservation policies.
My hope here is not to degrade anyone but to honestly and openly talk about what is best for the future or FKTs and the trail. And, I will be the first to admit, that I wish I could tweak some of my previous actions or decisions. But moving forward, I believe that low-media, low-impact trail records, which adhere to conservation regulations set forth by land management and the Appalachian Trail Conservancy are best for the trail, the AT community, and the FKT athletes."
Still with you on the climbing parallels. Though in yer case, and perhaps Tommy's too... bit of a chicken and egg issue. At some point when someone has attempted, attacked and absorbed a pursuit at every angle and direction they become so well rounded that the lines blur into a complete circle. Or as Coyote Thunder Owl says of the ol medicine wheel; All paths lead to the center.An analogy has been drawn between climbing and FKT hikes as aid : free :: supported : self-supported. While on a family vacation to escape the FL heat and humidity, we've been listening to a book on CD by climber Tommy Caldwell called "The Push." Caldwell describes speed-climbing in his book as often assuming a hybridized form of aid and free, that the best speed climbers are often the ones proficient in both styles.
Similarly, it makes sense to me that the most successful attempt at an overall FKT on the AT would be by someone proficient in both supported and self-supported styles. At least I'd like to think that runners with backgrounds in backpacking still enjoy an advantage. Maybe that's just my bias.
Nice to see Stringbean coming out and supporting Harvey. Hopefully Harvey can enjoy the beauty of the North Woods in spite of his suffering.
I'm still biased towards the lessons learned from 'Team Backpacker' but it's clear that such clean delineations between the styles are no longer enough to do the job regardless. Neither runner or backpacker can take this on as a standalone practitioner of their chosen discipline.
Though seems Jen remains conflicted on the subject as well:
"Maybe it is as simple as cheering for your team? Maybe you form alliances and allegiances with other record-setters based on similar approaches. Perhaps I feel a stronger connection to Joe because he had more of a long trail resume and spoke the language of a thru hiker or a backpacker more that the trail runners who have come from an ultra-racing background."
Though if'n I may be so bold I think that I've put my finger on the issue for me at least...
A supported hike is an exploration of the limits of the human body. As much as humanly possible the needs beyond simply putting one foot in front of the other are eliminated. A successful supported trip boils it down to a physical effort on the trail with the least amount of distractions or limits placed on that effort.
A self supported hike is an exploration of the limits of a human being. It strikes right at the heart of the purity of purpose in backpacking itself; A person, a pack, a trail.
One could express that it presents the ultimate competition of man vs nature by it's solitary limitation, but I think most would agree that in truth it the battle is one of man vs himself. If anything I know we both strongly feel that it is only in being in harmony with the trail that one could even entertain thoughts of success.
I'd guess and infer that you are curious of what could be possible, what the absolute limits of the physical aspect of the effort could be. Perhaps my mind has muddled up having that very conversation with you and no speculation on the matter is needed. It remains a valid question, and I feel that is the one a fully supported effort can answer. If a hybrid version proves most effective, I'd more than give you credit for being capable of determining how best to apply all the tools in yer bag of tricks since the very advantage/appeal of the supported effort is that all options are on the table. At the extreme level of support; the thought of having your own personal sherpa team on hand would give you the flexibility of the self-supported hiker to maximize each mile, section, and day to it's fullest. On the simpler side; doing a shennies style multiple aide point run where it was logistically easy blended with 24-36 hour slackpacks where terrain dictates would be exciting to dream about.
But at the end of the day... I find some portion of that quest boring. I respect it. Admire the effort of it.
Ultimately though it's hyper focus on point a to b coverage of distance forces me back into the tired old backpacker argument: "It's a race"
Unlike my fellow curmudgeonly old backpackers, I can appreciate that race and have no desire to exclude any from attempting it so long as the trail comes first.
Could even easily see myself studying them for clues about how best to integrate those lessons into a traditional hike.
Though the completeness of one human being accepting total responsibility for oneself while pursuing maximum effort is a balance and harmony with the world around them is the true appeal. Both climbing and backpacking do require some specialized gear, but remain very pure pursuits overall. While not quite as dramatically present, there is a life or death balance present in backpacking as well... collapsing at each day's finish line is not an option. 'Any jackass can climb a mountain, but only a mountaineer can return to the base of it.'
There is a fine line one must walk in both sports. KNOWING there is more in the tank, but having the discipline and experience to reserve just enough to complete the trip.
A supported trip lets you redline the engine and see how accurate that gas gauge really is so you can run on fumes safely and with little care. Neat trick. Good thing to know.
When you walk that tightrope... it's just not as appealing when there is a safety net. It's an admirable skill to cross it for sure.
But the real appeal comes when the master removes the net and dances solo with everything on the line.
That's when simply being fast transcends a simple race or sport for both participant and audience.
Even when there is no audience, or perhaps especially when there is none.
I still think Ms McAfee-Maggart says it best:
“When the Pawn Hits the Conflicts He Thinks Like a King
What He Knows Throws the Blows When He Goes to the Fight
and He'll Win the Whole Thing 'Fore He Enters the Ring
There's No Body to Batter When Your Mind Is Your Might
So When You Go Solo, You Hold Your Own Hand
and Remember That Depth Is the Greatest of Heights
and If You Know Where You Stand, Then You Know Where to Land
and If You Fall It Won't Matter, Cuz You'll Know That You're Right”
I like thinking about warren as a tugboat. 👍 We scheduled the entire hike (at least the first 3 days) around getting to the kennebec while the ferry was running. But Jen just wanted to ford it, to have an old school experience because she didnt know if she’d ever get the opportunity to ford (she hadn’t the two previous times) and warren, with all his first hand knowledge, was right there.
You could argue she went “off route” but I don’t think you could argue she got an advantage from it, not that you were saying she did. She used a lot of energy on that ford and the ferry was already running when she crossed it.
I think it’s interesting that all of us feel like Joe is on our “team,” regardless of whether we are hikers or trail runners.
Also, I wonder how much time he spent resupplying. If it was just a total time suck or somehow allowed him to recover mentally from trail miles. Kind of like when Kilian takes a rock out of shoe or waits for somebody else to run with at a summit. If somebody wanted to do a self supported style because that suited them better but didn’t want to spend hours every few days resupplying in town or at a hostel it would be pretty simple to have a support person deliver resupplies at road crossings every 150 or 200 miles. If they were aiming for the overall/supported record of course. I mean, isn’t that what amazon prime is for? Ha
I do like having the kennebec as an added puzzle to solve on record attempts, but I don’t think it’s realistic to revert back.
Thanks for the link to Jen's article. Interesting to get her take on it.
The massage table has been brought up by a couple of people and looking back through the pictures that have been posted, there are total of three pictures of a massage table, all taken in the dark, late at night at Harvey's final stopping point. In two of the pictures, yes, the table is outside in an otherwise empty, dark parking lot. In the third the table is located inside a tent, hidden from view, and again taken at night. I wasn't there so I can't confirm how many hikers saw this, but the chances of other hikers being out after dark in those particular areas feels pretty low.
There are also two instance where a travel cot was set up during the day at a road crossing, allowing a visiting PT (not a masseuse) to work on his injury.
Which brings me to my point - where's the line?
To take this out to extremes, should there not be a chair or table sitting out? What about a dry pair of socks? What about the thru-hiker who could afford to buy two hamburgers in a small town? Should they not eat in front of other hikers?
I agree with a lot of what JPD has to say, and I understand how some of the team's actions have undoubtedly come across - especially through the prism of social media where a single picture might be displayed with little to no information outside of what one looks and interprets what they see.
Harvey feels an extremely close connection to nature, and I don't think we've done a great job of having this come across in some of the posts. I've been on runs where we've stopped to take pictures of milkweed and checked the leaves for caterpillars, eaten berries from a tree, and ran to a nearby zoo so he could try to get the wolves to howl with him (this was all on the same run by the way...we got back well after dark). Besides his well-documented love of rocks, Harvey often will buy a plant for races. During a 24 hour race around a track, Harvey placed a plant outside of the track so he could look at over at it each time he went around. At Badwater, with space at a premium in a van, Harvey will buy a cactus which we'll periodically haul out so he can look at it, before planting it once the race is over. Does being able to get clean water from the van versus filtering from a stream lead him to be less connected to nature? I honestly don't know...
Where's the line between documenting a trip as it's going on versus documenting it once it's over? If Joe came out with a book, would that change what anyone thought? Does that make it a well-documented trip? Is there a difference between documenting "during" vs documenting "after"? Jen talks about she feels that "low-media" attempts are ultimately best for the trail. Where I struggle with this is that being able to live vicariously through a "high-media" trip is as close as many of the people following along will ever get to experiencing the trail. And maybe that's the problem - maybe it's too much like a tour group riding a bus as it glides through Rome. You're seeing it, but are you really experiencing it?
Rereading this, I realize this is going to come across as overly defensive, and that's not really my intention. What I'm trying to understand - and living in the Midwest, I've had little to no exposure to what Jen describes as "trail culture," especially the "east coast" variation that others have mentioned - is...well, trail culture. I appreciate the paragraph where she talks about everyone being on the same team - and her call to action resonated enough with me to go make a donation to the ATC. But there's also no shortage of subsets and cliques within that team. I realize the answer is probably "hike your own hike," whether that's with a crew catering to your needs or spending time to filter your water each day only able to eat three handfuls of trail mix when you want the whole bag. Being involved in this experience has been an interesting (and at times eye-opening) peek into this world.
Interesting point about trail closures and FKTs. In Aug 2016, the AT was closed in VA between Humpback Rocks parking to Dripping Rock because of aggressive bears that had broken into a car, and weren't leaving the trail (at least once) when hikers approached. Hikers were told to yellow blaze on the parkway--~3.5 miles on pavement instead of 7 by trail, and a lot less elevation, not to mention avoiding some rocky parts. It was re-opened by the time Karl came through. Had it not been, and if he had followed instructions, would he not have been recognized for the FKT? Certainly another option would've been to ignore the signs and take his chances with the bears, but that would've led to negative publicity if he'd been caught. And if there had been fire, he would've had no choice. That's the breaks?
Man, that's a great question ("where's the line?"). I can't say. It's different for everyone. I just know it struck me as over the top.
It'd be a little like having a cappuccino maker at a trail head. It's a luxury most ordinary thru hikers don't have. If you're doing trail magic and offering to folks, awesome. genius even. But if not, don't have it or be discreet about it. otherwise if you're saying "hey, he's just one of you," thru-hikers (and the online AT community) are gonna call BS. And they'd be right.
It's the "haves" and "have nots." There's no set dollar amount but I've heard a lot of thru-hikers spend two or three dollars per mile. I'm guessing that's the most recent supported FKTs have been $30-$50 or more. And hey, hike you're own hike. But just be aware of the discrepancy and tread lightly. I think that's how Karl really evolved and I applaud him for that. If you're dirt bagging it and doing things discreetly- as it sounds like was done with the cot and the PT- we're none the wiser and it's all good. But with sponsorship stuff, that almost seems mutually exclusive.
I think Trail Runner Guy a while ago mentioned needing supplies for Harvey and not being able to share stuff. I kind of get that, not wanting to run into town or having a limited supply and being focused on your guy (or gal). But at the same time, that's also kind of the opposite of what the AT is about. People share stuff- fuel, an energy bar, sometimes water, duct tape. It's what makes the trail special and what makes trail angels so appreciated. A cold Coke or Clif bar, a burger or burrito at a trail head- heck, a freakin' jolly rancher- goes a LOOOONG way and really lifts your spirits when you're thru-hiking.
If I were in town or at a trailhead and saw somebody who looked like they needed a ride, I'd either give them one or tell them I'd do it as soon as Jen came through. I'm not trying to seem like a saint. The opposite. I think that's normal around the trail and just part of the "trail culture."
As for "in the moment" vs. "after the fact" I'm not one to talk. I mean, we make our living off Jen speaking and writing. She's got a book out right now on FKTs and though she'd written Becoming Odyssa (her first and most popular) before ever doing an FKT, the recognition from the FKT took that stuff to another level. But at the same time, we kind of use the FKT to get her foot in the door and talk about what really matters, which is her love for the AT and getting people outdoors. She's on the AT board, we give sizable donations every year, and she'll keep hiking and trying to get people on trails till the day she dies. She wants to share her passion for the AT (and trails in general) because she thinks it can make a difference in people's lives and for the environment. I have no doubt that's what Harvey wants, too (even the sponsors, deep down).
I will say, y'all have done an OUTSTANDING job of documenting things. It's been highly entertaining to get 2, 3, and 4 updates a day. And I love the image of Harvey trying to get the zoo wolves to howl. He seems like that type of guy.
The last thing I want is to offend any of you, either. That would be wrong and I don't want you to get that impression from the "AT" community. We want to be welcome hosts, if I can call us that. Like Jen said and you reiterated, we're all on the same team, working together to try to inspire people to be better versions of themselves and to care about nature and trails. Cue the koombayah. But it's true.
That's another great question. And I don't know. I lean toward "that's the breaks" but I'm a lot less of an expert on this one than Matt and some of the others. I don't think Matt wants to be the arbiter of all this stuff but I'm curious what he thinks. Matt?
Really appreciate the passionate and well-written response Brew. I came to WB because I knew there would be discussion about this and wanted to be able to respond to questions and provide information where I could (and shout out to TRG for doing the same). I've really appreciated the opportunity to actually discuss things, and disagree, and have that be okay. Appreciate everything that everyone here has done and is doing to protect and preserve these 2000+ miles.
Glad y’all came. And thanks for donating to the ATC! Very cool
I didn't make a donation, but I did weed whack my 1+ mile section of the AT this week.
FKTers should follow the official route, which changes often. Official reroutes pop up to preserve the resource and/or to protect the hiker. Doing otherwise is kind of silly. After all, I don’t see anyone trying to uphold Earl Schaffer’s FKT route. Ignoring reroutes also runs the risk of perpetuating our community’s perception of perverse behavior among FKTers.That's another great question. And I don't know. I lean toward "that's the breaks" but I'm a lot less of an expert on this one than Matt and some of the others. I don't think Matt wants to be the arbiter of all this stuff but I'm curious what he thinks. Matt?
As for style, documentation and other stuff, I have some thoughts I’d like to type out, but I’m home from the vacation and back to the grind, so that’ll have to wait.
Harvey spent the night sleeping in a hammock a few miles north of Gorham (let's call it 1900). The latest schedule I'm working from has him finishing in just under 50 days which would have him finishing on July 18. Badwater starts in Death Valley on the evening of July 23. I'll be out there as the crew chief for a runner in the 9:30 pm wave and I'll be curious to see when Harvey (in the 11 pm wave) passes us and how he's feeling. Last year, he had a week after the World 24 hr championship (running 144 miles for 37th place) and Badwater and he ended up finishing 3rd. Very curious to talk to him next week and see how he recovers.
I'm also curious to see how he approaches these last 300 miles and if he empties the tank or if he tries to manage his effort with Badwater on the horizon.
Kudos to Harvey for continuing and best of luck on finishing his hike.
TrailRunnerGuy: EDIT- oops- meant Travis REX
As a fellow practical minded midwesterner...
On a supported FKT, in my opinion, pretty much anything goes. So if that means a true personal masseuse 'on staff' or a friend stopping by for a quick tune-up; it's support. One could argue a comfy folding chair and someone shoveling cooked food in your face is a decadent luxury too. But that's the point really. It's not a 'normal' hike. Any support you get is abnormal by default.
Some normal hikers get offended by those who choose to slackpack a section as well. Some normal hikers get offended by just about anything really. Most probably don't care too much so long as you stay out of their face.
A term you might not have heard is 'yogi'. Like Yogi Bear stealing a pick a nick basket. Some hikers are professional beggars and think anyone parked at the trailhead has arrived to provide them with treats. Failure to comply with their wishes to be supported on their special journey is cause for scorn. Wherever there's an elbow; there's an opinion and an *******.
That said... all eyes are on you. Technically you sign up for that burden. Since the trip is a public one it's worth a little thought and discretion to avoid any negative impact too.
Even as simple as setting up on the far side of the trail head lot, or out of line of sight of others is a decent plan. If nothing else it avoids running into too many folks.
Hikers are used to seeing feeds and trail magic so when you set up a spread right in line of sight of a hiker clearing the woods... even when the hiker is a kind soul with good intentions it causes a mini-roller coaster of emotions. You'll find folks here like myself who would like to see less magicians out on the trail, but on a hot day if someone is sitting there with a slice of watermelon that's hard to turn down. But if I clear the trail and hit a road crossing it's easy enough to walk to the otherside and back into the woods when your van is parked just around the corner with your table of goodies hidden on the far side. You're just another car in a parking lot and we've crossed paths without impacting each other in the slightest.
As Brew mentions though... a little 'goodwill' box of treats for the unavoidable run-in with hikers ain't the worst idea either.
For the most part... FKT's remain an ammeter pursuit. Only a few of us understand that 'professional' or 'sponsored' isn't in reality quite the corporate machine most picture. Hikers are cheap by nature, so even free shoes and t-shirts is a pretty sweet score. Even Karl's relatively extravagant expenditure probably didn't go too far after a van, crew pay, and supplies were factored in. But the perception is of a well stocked and provisioned van filled with every conceivable goody a hiker could want rolling down the trail selfishly hoarding it all for some jerk running on OUR trail is there.
The bigger misconception though is knowledge and planning. For the most part that jibe is valid.
Hikers spend months, even years planning their hikes. When a sponsored athlete takes on a FKT we assume you've done even more homework. You've researched permits, fees, obtained permissions, combed over the details, dove into the history, spent time training on the trail, contacted the ATC and even spent days pouring over websites like this one.
"Filming" implies 'film crews'. Documentation implies 'photographers' "Sponsor" implies 'money'. "Corporate" implies 'lawyers'. Professionals.
So the bottom line- People expect quite a lot out of you. They expect professionalism. There are a few of us who understand the real limitations and that simply concentrating on the FKT itself is more burden than most can handle. Dumping all this extra crap onto it might be a step too far. But real life is that it comes with the territory, in particular with the Appalachian Trail. I can guarantee folks at the Ice Age Trail may happily welcome you and thank you profusely for bringing attention to the trail. The AT is a premier trail, and access to it comes at a premium in terms of responsibility when using it.
Hiking a long distance trail can be a lark, but for many it's the dream of a lifetime.
For some it's the defining moment of young adulthood, for others the retirement carrot that got them through life's long ratrace.
More importantly; for several months at a time... and even decades after one leaves it... the Appalachian Trail is home.
Even those who hike on a whim tend to feel this way long after they have left or even before they've arrived. It's very personal.
Anyone has a right to visit. Just remember you're a guest.
Anyone has a right to move in. But be a good roommate.
Anyone who moves in understands how fragile it is. Don't mess it up.
Runners, especially Ultra folks, have a strong sense of comrade and connection.
Hikers live together in a small town that is 2200 miles long and a few hundred feet wide.
So the word community tends to get used in a very literal and tangible sense a layer deeper than even those in the ultra community enjoy.
So does the word family; though fair to say it's as dysfunctional as any other at times.
It's impossible to say where the line is.
The only clearly defined one is a 2200 mile long line a few footprints wide.
It only exists because thousands and thousands of people every year volunteer to preserve it.
So really all you can do is try not to cross it.
Yar, that's basically an impossible standard.
Thankfully... At their very best;
FKT's specialize in the impossible.
Last edited by Just Bill; 07-11-2018 at 11:14.
I can't believe Harvey's doing Badwater less than a week after finishing. Crazy.
Matt, I wasn't saying "ignore the reroute," I was saying if there's a reroute it complicates how the FKT attempt is viewed. There are a ton of variables. Does it shorten it or lengthen it? Replace trail miles with road miles? How much does it shorten it by? If it lengthens it but replaces trail miles with road miles, how much before it's seen as "equal"? What if it's a significant reroute (12 miles) but you break the record by a day?
And to Matt's point about Earl Schaffer, the trail's never the same from year to year but it would be silly to say "FKT when it's 2189.3," "FKT when it's 2190.1." There are way too many scenarios and I don't think anybody wants to parse out how different or equal it all is. But I do think you reach a breaking point where it's "not the same" and should be viewed as such.
Does anybody know how much the burn reroute took off when Karel did his PCT FKT? On Peter Bakwin's FKT pro board it just says (taking several fire detours)
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