To hang or not to hang?

[TNhiker]

Most attacks don't involve hikers but perhaps you wish to see it all all the attacks involved hikers.

can you provide some incidents/attacks/whatever one wants to call it for non hiker/backpacker/fisherpeoples?


and since this is a board mainly dealing with the AT---incidents in the southeast/east coast area?

[Fredt4]

can you provide some incidents/attacks/whatever one wants to call it for non hiker/backpacker/fisherpeoples?


and since this is a board mainly dealing with the AT---incidents in the southeast/east coast area?

This is the site that lists bear attacks. It separates the attacks by type of bear: black, brown or polar

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List..._North_America

The most striking aspect is the rarity of attacks, especially of attacks upon hikers. I remember when they removed the fencing from the shelters in the GSMNP. To date no one has been killed that was sleeping in a shelter. Unfortunately a woman was killed while day hiking. I thought there was another incident but perhaps it was outside the park.

[martinb]

I'd be curious to hear from those who have lost their food when hung if they used the PCT method. I consider that method to be adequately safe, and try to use the recommended 12 feet high and 6 feet from the trunk of the tree. I certainly can relate to the difficulty of finding a good bear bag limb, though.

I lost mine, hing PCT method, 14' high about 7' from the trunk. It did not matter to this bear, he know how to get it. Break off the branch. This is the weakness of these types of hangs. I was camping with a three-time AT thru hiker when this happened, he said you did everything right, this bear just knew what he was doing.

I found out, a couple of days later that this bear had gotten to other hangs in the area (nothing posted on the Forest FB or webpage). The forest service closed the entire wilderness area down a few days later. I drove by while a ranger was putting up closure notices and ask him about what happened. He said the bear got in to someone's tent while they were in it, after their food. Again, this was not posted by the Forest Service. I believe this happens more than people realize, it's just not news unless someone gets hurt.

[Deacon]

Food in a tent is not effective, it's a higher stakes gamble. You are gambling that the bear will be afraid enough not to overcome it's urge to get into the tent, after your food. The bear does not want to kill you, it wants your food....

Ok, then why doesn’t a bear try to grab your food loaded pack off your back as you hike during the day? You’ve got your food in your possession.

The bears I see as I hike while wearing my food loaded pack, either run away or, well, run away.

Why are they any different at night?


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[Deacon]

So therefore I have no problem sleeping with my food.


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[Deacon]

If there is a cable, pole, box, etc., I use it, otherwise I sleep with it in my tent.

A few times like in SNP or a real remote place I wasn't sure about I did hang a bear bag, but I am not confident in the quality of job I did (tried the 10 foot up an 10 foot out, but who knows).

Rock Spring Hut - SNP - 2016.

About ten hikers, mostly if not all, were out for short week long hikes. Everyone hung there food bag on the pole - except me. I slept with my food. I got some dirty looks.

That night - we believe it was raccoons - got every single bag on the pole. I had no problem.

Just sayin’.


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[Uncle Joe]

The problem with sleeping with your food is that you're betting the bear has a proper fear of humans. A bear that's frequenting a camp of humans, going after backpacks, and ignoring people yelling and throwing things at it isn't afraid of humans and is likely just as inclined to go for the food in your tent. This, in fact, has happened.

[SWODaddy]

My general rule of thumb is to sleep with my food everywhere that bears are not protected from hunting, and hang or use a bear canister everywhere they're protected. Yes, there's obviously exceptions.

My food isn't safer while hung, but I am as the bears in these areas often have no fear of humans and associate them with food. Black bears become dependent on the food source and then become more aggressive as measures (bear boxes, cables, canister rules, etc.) are implemented.

Too often in these threads, people conflate opportunistic stealing of food with predatory attacks by black bears. A day hiker (or even a person in hammock) being killed by a bear has nothing to do with food storage.

[Uncle Joe]

My general rule of thumb is to sleep with my food everywhere that bears are not protected from hunting, and hang or use a bear canister everywhere they're protected. Yes, there's obviously exceptions.
My food isn't safer while hung, but I am as the bears in these areas often have no fear of humans and associate them with food. Black bears become dependent on the food source and then become more aggressive as measures (bear boxes, cables, canister rules, etc.) are implemented.
Too often in these threads, people conflate opportunistic stealing of food with predatory attacks by black bears. A day hiker (or even a person in hammock) being killed by a bear has nothing to do with food storage.

Sounds like a good rule of thumb, actually.

Certainly there's a big difference between predatory attacks and food stealing. However, a food thief doesn't have to become predatory to be a danger. People immediately go to a list of fatal bear attacks when people ask about hiking in bear country. Aggressive contact, while still rare, is more likely with a nuisance bear.

[reppans]

Interesting discussion... I sleep with my food in a large Opsak stored inside my tent. A smaller Opsak for garbage is stored inside the larger one (double bagged), and used TP is stored inside a garbage Mountain House bag (triple bagged). I also use Opsaks at home to store my dog's poop bags until I can find a garbage can - it's the only thing I've found that can contain that stink, even baking in hot car for hours. My dog cannot smell a juice steak though it.

Yes I've read that a bear's sense of smell is ~21x better than the average dog (which is 100x better than the avg. human). If that's the case, I figure I'm toast anyway - I stuff empty Cliff bar wrappers in my pack's pocket while hiking; steam from my MH meal wafts into my face/hair/shirt; a drop of food drips onto my clothes/ground sheet; and if it's raining hard, I will both cook and eat inside of my tent (well, pee and poop too, so maybe that cancels the food odors out ).

To properly do a 200ft 'bear triangle' for eating/sleeping/hanging, I find I need to bushwack through a lot more low brush (and multiple times) with the equally unattractive tick/Lyme risk. I guess I'll continue to take my chances sleeping with the food.

PS - interesting note: I was day hiking on AT/LT last week and was talking to a PCT/AT thru hiker..... he mentioned that deer were a real problem. Apparently, they had chewed through some folks packs left outside for the salt imbedded in the padding.

[martinb]

Ok, then why doesn’t a bear try to grab your food loaded pack off your back as you hike during the day? You’ve got your food in your possession.

The bears I see as I hike while wearing my food loaded pack, either run away or, well, run away.

Why are they any different at night?


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Sight. Bears are opportunistic feeders. The bear does not want confrontation but it does want the food.

[GolfHiker]

I gotta say, all these responses are great. Well stated positions from veteran AT hikers who have been there, done that. I've personally seen it all, good & great hangs, PCT included, yet critters get the food. Bad hangs, inviting bears to have easy access, hanging successfully from the shelter tuna cans, and keeping food in your tent &/or under your hammock. I've been lucky over the years, and yes, I've done all the above.

Its a polarizing topic, even to the point of shelter hikers being upset with anyone who does not hang, believing they are somehow bringing harm to everyone else. In the end, pick your side of the question, commit to it and HYOH!

I've learned a lot here, and plan to use this information to my best advantage going forward. I'll be utilizing bear boxes for sure, cables & poles maybe, and sleeping with my food otherwise.

[TwoRoads]

This is where I get confused -- and please do not take me as being snarky or argumentative; this is a genuine question: what is the difference between hanging your food in a shelter vs. keeping it in your tent?
As for myself, I know full well that my hanging skills are near zero, and I believe that a poor hang is worse than no hang at all. I use an Ursack/OPsack combination. Most of the time I sleep with my food in my tent, however if I'm in an area with known or obvious bear activity (or if I just have an uneasy feeling), I tie my Ursack to a tree. On the couple of occasions when I've stayed in a shelter, I've put the sack up the pole out of respect for the others who were there and adamant about hanging their food.

Good question, so for clarification, in a shelter, I at least have a little room to maneuver in case of a close encounter. Maybe that's a false sense of security on my part. I just feel more trapped in a tent and at the mercy of an agile wild animal, plus when tenting, I'm alone and often a good distance from help. However, note that I said I hang in a shelter only if all other signs point to no bear activity and then preferably if I'm not alone (more people to hopefully scare the bear away).

I did hike with a guy who was skitterish about not hanging THE WHOLE PACK (because of the possibility of a bear associating food with a backpack). It makes sense, but I'm just not quite that cautious. In fairness, there was a sign indicating bear activity in the area. Nevertheless, I hung my food and then, out of consideration for my hiking partner, propped my backpack against a tree about 100 yards away and he was comfortable with that.

I'm not so trusting as to believe that a bear is always going to want to avoid confrontation. My thinking is, they are a wild animal, and therefore unpredictable. They have, after all, killed people, albeit rarely, so I'll give them that much respect. And as I alluded to, my process is about saving ME first; if I lose my food, I'm not happy, but I'm alive and uninjured. If I feel like someone's behavior might be putting me at risk, I'll go ahead and hang my food and then tent.

[Berserker]

Ahh yes, the age old food storage debate. My opinion has gone all over the place on this. I used to be a staunch hanger (PCT method), and then I started getting lazy and slept with it. In 2012 I bought a bear can for the JMT, and since then I’ve used it off and on with some random hangs in there and some sleeping with the food.

As another poster stated my main strategy at any point in time depends on the potential threat of a bear actually coming into camp. This can happen anywhere at any time, but there are definitely higher risk areas such as in the National Parks and at shelters where there are problem bears. For the high risk areas I either use provided food storage (cables, poles or boxes) or carry my bear can. Sometimes I’ll hang the food. For lower risk areas I’ll often still sleep with the food (sealed up in multiple bags).

There’s really not a good answer here that would for all intents and purposes solve the issue…well, actually there is, but most ain’t gonna like it. Where storage is not provided the bear can appears to be the next safest bet. Of course this is the heaviest option, and most will not want to carry it. There is also a valid debate as to whether or not it’s really necessary. However, if we were to pick a unified solution (i.e. a solution that should cover all hiker experience levels) to this problem this seems like the most fool proof method. As it goes with everything, the vast majority of hikers are responsible with their food, but there’s that small percentage that’s gonna screw it up for everyone else.

[GolfHiker]

As I've read through the responses I'm seeing one somewhat consistent comment regarding "possession" of the food bag, meaning having it in your tent, hammock or backpack, which qualifies as possession. I understand the concept, and assuming I accept it, follow it, what specifically does one do with a hammock? Hang the bag outside on the strap? Place directly beneath the hammock? Normally, there is not enough room inside my hammock for a full food bag.

What do you veteran hangers do, again, assuming you are not tree hanging.

Thanks.

[T.S.Kobzol]

Put it under your knees


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[TwoRoads]

Let me preface this by saying I respect the prerogative of all hikers to "hike their own hike." And this includes the different opinions and approaches to this topic. That said:

I am really kind of shocked by the number of hikers here (and many of you are fairly experienced), who trust the practice of sleeping with your food. First I would say that the low number of bear attacks are probably just as influenced by the infrequency humans venturing into bear habitat (compared with other risks) as by the shyness of bears (black bears in particular). My second point would be that most of the reasons given here for the willingness to sleep with food are personal anecdotes; not based on research or expert opinions. A hiker might hike for 1,000 miles sleeping with their food, and conclude that it's safe to do. But the conclusion can still be wrong. And the possible consequences of being wrong on sleeping with food are 1) Facing a life-threatening situation, 2) Increasing the chances that a food-conditioned bear will have to be destroyed, and 3) Increasing the chances that other hikers will face life-threatening situations with a food-conditioned bear.

I'd like to inject a couple of things that I don't think have been mentioned here that probably indicate that sleeping with one's food is unwise and risky. First, in my reading of reliable sites (National Geographic, National Park Service, Geology.com, Smithsonianmag.com, and others, I have yet to find any bear expert who has not strongly advised against sleeping with food. Second, bears may be undergoing food stress because of environmental conditions that we may not recognize or be aware. Third, Smithsonianmag as well as other sources advise that the most dangerous human/bear interaction is not with a mother bear defending her cubs, but instead with hungry, lone, male bears.

According to Smithsonianmag.com, "Keep food and garbage away from bears. Food or garbage was present in 38 percent of the documented fatal black bear attacks, and the scent may have attracted the bears. In addition, the scientists speculate the presence of food may make the bears more aggressive, thus increasing the possibility of an attack."

I am far more inclined to trust the advise of bear experts, who have had a career observing and studying as well as often being involved (or at least being knowledgeable) with research than I am to trust anecdotes, logic, or limited personal experience. I'm not saying this to criticize anyone; just to address the original question with what I consider to be the best available information.

[T.S.Kobzol]

No one, in this sue happy society, will ever recommend that you sleep with your food. Liability.


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[Fredt4]

Let me preface this by saying I respect the prerogative of all hikers to "hike their own hike." And this includes the different opinions and approaches to this topic. That said:

I am really kind of shocked by the number of hikers here (and many of you are fairly experienced), who trust the practice of sleeping with your food. First I would say that the low number of bear attacks are probably just as influenced by the infrequency humans venturing into bear habitat (compared with other risks) as by the shyness of bears (black bears in particular). My second point would be that most of the reasons given here for the willingness to sleep with food are personal anecdotes; not based on research or expert opinions. A hiker might hike for 1,000 miles sleeping with their food, and conclude that it's safe to do. But the conclusion can still be wrong. And the possible consequences of being wrong on sleeping with food are 1) Facing a life-threatening situation, 2) Increasing the chances that a food-conditioned bear will have to be destroyed, and 3) Increasing the chances that other hikers will face life-threatening situations with a food-conditioned bear.

I'd like to inject a couple of things that I don't think have been mentioned here that probably indicate that sleeping with one's food is unwise and risky. First, in my reading of reliable sites (National Geographic, National Park Service, Geology.com, Smithsonianmag.com, and others, I have yet to find any bear expert who has not strongly advised against sleeping with food. Second, bears may be undergoing food stress because of environmental conditions that we may not recognize or be aware. Third, Smithsonianmag as well as other sources advise that the most dangerous human/bear interaction is not with a mother bear defending her cubs, but instead with hungry, lone, male bears.

According to Smithsonianmag.com, "Keep food and garbage away from bears. Food or garbage was present in 38 percent of the documented fatal black bear attacks, and the scent may have attracted the bears. In addition, the scientists speculate the presence of food may make the bears more aggressive, thus increasing the possibility of an attack."

I am far more inclined to trust the advise of bear experts, who have had a career observing and studying as well as often being involved (or at least being knowledgeable) with research than I am to trust anecdotes, logic, or limited personal experience. I'm not saying this to criticize anyone; just to address the original question with what I consider to be the best available information.

"Keep food and garbage away from bears."

This is the reason I sleep with my food. Hanging the food is not an effective method of keeping the food away from the bears. As noted in the posts above most hikers can not effectively hang their food because the selection of trees or the experience of the bears in getting the food from the trees. You may choose to believe that the bears will be defeated by the food hangs, but it's not what most hikers will state the result is. Once you accept that hanging the food isn't about protecting the hikers then you're able to see the errors in food hanging, until then you're fighting a battle that you're bound to lose. Sleeping with my food allows me to avoid the errors that hanging the food instills. I've yet to find a slew of bear attacks caused by sleeping with the food, but it's fairly certain that hanging the food is a certain path to having a bear getting the food. So, you decide whether you hang to protect yourself of whether you sleep with the food to protect the bears.

[SWODaddy]

No one, in this sue happy society, will ever recommend that you sleep with your food. Liability.


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Yep.

I'll add, if a food scent was present in 38% of fatal black bear attacks, that would imply there was no scent present in 62% of fatal black bear attacks - ie, no correlation and supporting the argument that they are preying on the people and not their dehydrated beef stroganoff.