Skin out weight question

[rocketsocks]

Same here. He knew a thing or two.

Mr. Fletcher was also fond of hiking in his skin only.
Wayne

Yup, still the best book on backpacking out there in my world, and the footnotes of British humor still have me trying to figure just what the heck is he saying, would loved to have met him and chat a bit.

[Miner]

While I normally don't discuss FSO weight, I do know what mine is. If you are trying to drop ounces in order to make hiking easier and less burdensome, you have to consider that what you are actually carrying and worn is still stuff your leg muscles have to carry just like it does your pack weight. So in my type-engineer obsessed spreadsheets, I have an extra category called carried/worn that I can add to my baseweight if I choose. By tracking that, you start to question if those on sale at REI 18oz zipoff pants are worth bringing compared to a 10oz long pair+ 4oz running shorts. Some of you might be surprised at your clothing weight compared to some other choices out there. I was able to knock off an easy 1/2 pound once I started looking at stuff I previously wasn't counting or even looking at.

I'm not trying to compare weight with others, but just to figure out how to be as comfortable hiking as I can be. I often end up going on extended backpacking trip in the mountains with little pre-training beyond a 40 minute walk at lunch. Keeping the pack light allows me to not mind the altitude as much or to have to cut back my distance. Even going into the 10K elevations of the Sierra Nevada, I usually plan on at least 15 mile days coming straight from my desk job.

[Cheyou]

Backpack weight threads always turn into silly ,your overweight so just lose weight or your obsessive if you weigh stuff posts. If I was overweight I would still weigh everthing .

Lighterpack.com has a carried, worn category

Thom

[cmoulder]

Backpack weight threads always turn into silly ,your overweight so just lose weight or your obsessive if you weigh stuff posts. If I was overweight I would still weigh everthing .

Lighterpack.com has a carried, worn category

Thom

+1

But looking back thru this thread it has less of that than most. Some of the usual suspects have not "weighed in" hahaha yet to tell us what a bunch of candy-asses we are.

Seems they have an irresistible compulsion to tell people to stop worrying about weight when someone starts a thread asking specifically how to reduce pack weight.

[dwcoyote]

The next step will be abs out weight. That is, take the bodyweight at which you have visible abdominal muscles (for most people this occurs around 7-8% bodyfat) and add everything to that, including the belly.

Seriously though, I joked with a triathlete friend of mine how we will spend hundreds of dollars worrying about a few ounces yet be carrying around and extra 10-30 pounds of fat. She had recently purchased a carbon fiber bicycle (not sure what exactly is CF, maybe the frame, but she seemed to like it so good for her) and I had purchased a titanium p-38 style can opener (mostly as a lark).

I do work at keeping my pack weight light, however measured, but I also work at physical fitness so an extra pound won't destroy my hiking pleasure.

I've lost about 40 pounds since last hiking season and let me tell you, that makes a huge difference. I've actually added about 2 pounds of "comfort" gear back into my pack since losing the body weight and didn't even notice.

[Odd Man Out]

+1

But looking back thru this thread it has less of that than most. Some of the usual suspects have not "weighed in" hahaha yet to tell us what a bunch of candy-asses we are.

Seems they have an irresistible compulsion to tell people to stop worrying about weight when someone starts a thread asking specifically how to reduce pack weight.

But in this thread, the OP did not ask about pack weight. The question was about non-pack weight, and most of the discussion has not been "to stop worrying about weight", but rather has focused on the notion that all weight matters.

[cmoulder]

But in this thread, the OP did not ask about pack weight. The question was about non-pack weight, and most of the discussion has not been "to stop worrying about weight", but rather has focused on the notion that all weight matters.

Thread title: "Skin out weight question" Gee, I thought "skin out" includes pack weight. Silly me.

That the OP did not understand that skin-out includes pack weight does not change that fact.

Beyond that, I was responding to Cheyou's general observation about the devolution of discussions such as these, and the "stop worrying about weight" part was a further comment about those discussions.

Maybe find some other hair to split.

[soumodeler]

I've lost about 40 pounds since last hiking season and let me tell you, that makes a huge difference. I've actually added about 2 pounds of "comfort" gear back into my pack since losing the body weight and didn't even notice.

So much truth to this! Lose the weight on your body first, and then you may find that you don't necessarily need to spend more on lighter gear to get the same effect.

I went a little far on the UL side and got to the point where it was affecting my comfort level. I added a few things back, and it made a huge difference in my enjoyment of hiking. I still track and weigh what I am carrying, but within 3-5 pounds, I don't care or notice.

[Just Bill]

There's been a bit of thread drift in another thread so I decided to start this thread

I don't get the whole skin out thing.

For most people their body is used to wearing and therefore carrying the weight of shoes (I spend most of my time barefoot). So if you are hiking in shoes similar to what you wear what does it matter?

Same thing with wearing clothes. Everyone wears clothes so again I don't see why the weight of the clothes matters all that much if the hiking clothes are similar to what you usually wear.

As mentioned- the term was coined by Mr. Colin Fletcher. (it's a bit murky who coined 'base weight' but it may be Colin too).

It's simply a tool... and a gentle reminder from Sai Fletcher to examine what you carry.

Another even more ancient gentleman, Horace Kephart, was the first to note that the weight of your footwear is important.
The well known 'a pound on your feet is five on your back' was eventually tested and proven by military studies and led to the lighter weight boots now used by our troops.

So while one hiker may use a 14 ounce minimalist shoe, and another a 4lbs+ pair of limmers.... that weight would not be considered in base loads. But is evaluated when looking from skin out.
And above all... whatever you call it you will definitely notice it at the end of the day.

Leatherman has a popular multi-tool that most of us carried when they launched 30 years ago. Same with the 1" tall Swiss champ from Victorinox. Since they go in your pocket... nobody examined the choice much.

I recall when a fixed blade belt knife in a proper leather sheath was considered 'critical' and not part of one's load either.



When Ray Jardine launched his book in the mid 90's it was the first real game changer since Colin Fletcher's 'Complete Walker' in the late 60's. Before that it was Kephart's 'Camping and woodcraft' from 1910 or so.

General woodcraft and backpacking is not the hyperspecialized world of long distance hiking. Conditions are fairly static and predictable. The trail is established and the route is clear.
Ray Jardine boiled it down to essentials and cut redundancies. It's also the 'style' of hiking that most here practice even if they don't realize it.

With the increase in LD hiking and boom in UL techniques created for these trails... the 1 ounce Swiss army classic bumped off the 8 ounce leatherman brick many carried without a thought.
If you know your route... you don't need a solid knife or hatchet as getting lost would take some effort. Since your speed and distance traveled are fairly predictable... then extra stove fuel or food can be limited.
Daily miles covered increase as you travel downward into the whirling spiral of lighter gear. Cut weight=feel good= walk longer(not faster)= cover more miles= less time between resupply= cutting more weight.
As your overall gear load decreases... so does pack volume. Your pack is less of a burden, doesn't need to get put down, and you need less 'just in case' stuff in your pockets. Your are not a woodswalker carrying a pack you will lay down... you are a single unit. A traveler with a kit.

In fact when one doesn't carry much in your pocket you may be able to wear a 2 ounce Skirt (Hi Miner!) instead of a 12 ounce pair of cargo shorts with a belt.
As your burden is light, you move at a steady pace... so you need wear less clothing and insulation overall while moving... further reducing clothing worn or carried.
Since your balance isn't thrown off from an overburdened pack... you don't feel the need for clod hopper boots.
The addition of trekking poles further reduced balance issues and traction concerns... allowing lighter footwear again.

Colin Fletcher developed From Skin Out to allow one to mindfully and carefully consider everything you carry... and to consider it all as one giant system... even before it truly became one.
He developed this system because he began to take longer and longer trips into less established places with long periods between resupply.
It also created greater flexibility to camp longer and discuss important matters with time travelers or beavers.

Jardine perfected this idea with the opposite goal: How do I reach the next stop in the most efficient, expeditious and above all; most enjoyably comfortable way.
And Long Distance Hiking the Ray Way was born. (or at least spelled out as it's own thing).

You are not required to do anything. But if you do care to examine what you bring when you go for a hike... Skin out is the system people follow... consciously or not.
Yar... todays hiker trash may not take a gram scale to the thrift store to select their button up shirt of choice, however, that is because today's hiker trash are beneficiaries of those who have come before them carefully examining every part and piece of kit they carry. The folks who make your gear have read these books, understand these concepts, and have designed the gear you now buy with them in mind.

So truthfully... it is not hard to put together a pack off the shelf that Sai Fletcher and Jardine would be proud of.
So if you happen to carry an extra pound of clothes or 8 ounces of shoe or choose not to cut the handle off your toothbrush... it really isn't that big of a deal anymore.

Where skin out can still be useful is as a final check and to prevent a modern problem known as 'spreadsheet magic'
Or perhaps I should say App magic as even spreadsheets are becoming obsolete and concepts like FSO don't make sense as the app designer never heard of them and didn't plug them into your phone.

The oft quoted and proffered end all solution 'Zpacks Shelter' like the 21 ounce duplex is a neat piece of gear. An ounce or two of stakes and you're looking pretty sweet.
Compare that to a 32 ounce tent like a Big agnes and that is looking like a no-brainer choice right there when one fills out the shelter portion of the sheet.

Of course... from skin out reminds us that we are not done yet at all.
A freestanding tent is just that. We are done and hit the trail for a 32 ounce weight.

The Duplex is still a crinkly bundle of stuff looking pretty listless and useless overall.

One needs some stakes. Now we are at 23 ounces or so... especially once the duct tape patches start to add up.
One could add 5 ounces and buy Joe's Carbon poles. 28 ounces
Or convert it to freestanding for 11 ounces more. 33 ounces
Or one could use a pair of trekking poles, which average at least 16 ounces more.... 38 ounces.

Now there is not any particular reason one needs to carry trekking poles. In fact much like shoes... it burns calories to no good purpose.
Ray Jardine might even argue that the calories you burn... and extra food carried is counter productive. That your balance is better served having a light load. Your safety increased in having your hands free. And your energy better spent learning how to properly walk in the woods.

Colin Fletcher... being quite fond of a single stave in case one encounters a unicorn... would not begrudge you your trekking poles.
But he would not be likely quick to pick them up either... nor would he be like to toss his freestanding shelter to save 10 ounces only to be tricked into adding back 18 ounces to save the original 10.
Quite likely a fletcherism such as "People who jump to strong conclusions without having the facts in hand are simply more proof that Homo sapiens is a poor name for our species."

All that said though...
AHA! You think. Joke's on ol Bill as I will just get some gossamer gear poles. After all I like trekking poles and choose to carry them so why not 'dual use' them?
A trick even the now ancient Nessmuk who carried 25lbs loads including his canoe and paddle back in 1890 knew about but we modern folks consider brilliant innovation.

Aha! says ol Bill... the gossamer gear poles only exist because one of those folks obsessed with from skin out weight obsessed about the weight of the trekking poles themselves and found a way to reduce the weight.

So at the end of the day...32 oz free standing tent or 22 ounce duplex with 9 ounce Glen VanPeski ninny sticks for 31 ounces and an ounce of stakes turns out to be an even split at 32 ounces.
Whatever choice you make ends up being a pretty good choice if it works for you.

So long as you add it all up and compare apples to apples... then it seems that your good pal and mine Colin Fletcher has helped you stay happy, comfy, and well traveled from skin in after all.

So... I leave you with the wise words of Uncle Fletcher:

“Hell,” he told an interviewer, “I’m not a better backpacker than anyone else, I just write about it better.”

[trailmercury]

The oft quoted and proffered end all solution 'Zpacks Shelter' like the 21 ounce duplex is a neat piece of gear. An ounce or two of stakes and you're looking pretty sweet.
Compare that to a 32 ounce tent like a Big agnes and that is looking like a no-brainer choice right there when one fills out the shelter portion of the sheet.




So long as you add it all up and compare apples to apples.

Which two person side entry Big Agnes tent has a packed weight of 32 oz.?
I'm not finding one....
and a 32 oz. 2 person with two doors/vestibules?
Can't find that one either...
Apples to not apples in my mind

I realize one needs 8 stakes for the Duplex.... adds less than 2 oz.

For those that carry poles already, there is no added weight there.

maybe one should compare your Big Agnes XYZ tent to a Solplex or Altaplex for more of an apples to apples comparison.

I do appreciate your posts JustBill.

P.S. from a Zpacks sheep!

[Just Bill]

Which two person side entry Big Agnes tent has a packed weight of 32 oz.?
I'm not finding one....
and a 32 oz. 2 person with two doors/vestibules?
Can't find that one either...
Apples to not apples in my mind

I realize one needs 8 stakes for the Duplex.... adds less than 2 oz.

For those that carry poles already, there is no added weight there.

maybe one should compare your Big Agnes XYZ tent to a Solplex or Altaplex for more of an apples to apples comparison.

I do appreciate your posts JustBill.

P.S. from a Zpacks sheep!

2lbs was a ball park as there are a few.
Though the point in general was trekking pole based shelters vs freestanding tents in the context of 'from skin out'.
Not being a trekking pole user... I look at them with Fletcher's point of view.

And yar... one ounce or two... stakes are a flexible point. I did pick the duplex because it has a floor... one could debate that point at one point (adding the 'cost' of the groundsheet).

The trekking pole debate is not worth having. It's your choice.
If you choose to use... then explore pole based shelters.
But don't buy your shelter first (as many do) then start shopping for poles since your shelter needs them and you may not.

If you want dual side entry with vestibules... you are correct, you'll creep past 2lbs by a few ounces.
https://www.bigagnes.com/Copper-Spur-2-Platinum

One could debate (on a trail such as the AT or even Ice Age Trail) if being able to toss down a free standing tent is handy on rocky surfaces, shelter pads, or open meadows.
One could also debate the merits of having a full mesh wall and removable rain fly.
One could also debate the consequences of a broken trekking pole and it's impact on your shelter...or the weight of your shammie for wiping down the thing every morning.

But all simple debates when making a shelter choice with no right answer.

I concur... not a huge fan of the front entry single door. But for a hair under two lbs that compromise looks like this
https://www.bigagnes.com/Copper-Spur-2-Platinum

Guess deadnuts apples to apples on the Duplex may be this one...
https://www.bigagnes.com/Tiger-Wall-UL2

So you sir are correct... the Cuben still sneaks in the edge. Though most of these can be bought fer cheaper if one is careful.
The edge increases to a minor chasm if you are firmly in team trekking pole.

Though if you want to debate the solo options... good ol nylon is catching up too when they 'cheat' and use poles.
https://www.bigagnes.com/Scout-UL-2

Hell... I'm designing a custom pair of trekking poles with Ruta Locura for my bridge hammocks. So never say never, lol. Coming up on 40 myself so I may yet swing them ninny sticks.

I don't care what folks pick or use... just that if they do choose to give it some thought... that they actually do so.

Happy to 'lose' a debate with a zpacks sheep anyday if folks learn stuff.

[gracebowen]

I understand the skin out thing now. Putting things in pockets to reduce base weight is silly as others have said. Over the years I've lost and kept off over 40 lbs. I've also gone for barely obese to overweight. Meaning if I gain 10 lbs I'll be obese again.

The goal wasn't to lose weight but to quit caffeine so I quit tea and drink water now. I will add a 5 calorie flavor enhancer. My tea was about 75 calories a glass.

I've started losing weight again. Down to 180 now. At my heaviest it was painful just to walk. Dr said plantar fasciitis. As soon as I lost weight it went away. I lost 20 lbs fast by going from drinking probably 3000 calories a day to 1000. Now it's 300 or less.

I'm planning to never carry more than 30 lbs in my pack including pack.

Oh and interestingly enough I do plan to get a gram scale to take shopping with me.

[MuddyWaters]

I understand the skin out thing now. Putting things in pockets to reduce base weight is silly as others have said.

People put things in pockets because thats where they are useful and ready-at-hand. Maps, cameras, phones, ID, toilet paper, etc, AM drops , all thrive in pockets.

Just because you have a pack, does not mean everything has to be in it.

[cmoulder]

People put things in pockets because thats where they are useful and ready-at-hand. Maps, cameras, phones, ID, toilet paper, etc, AM drops , all thrive in pockets.

Just because you have a pack, does not mean everything has to be in it.

If that's where one normally carries these items, fine. But the phrase "to reduce base weight" is where the silliness comes in.

Personally, I hate carrying stuff in pockets, although I do it on my little local trail run because there's nowhere else to put stuff unless I'm doing a longer run, in which case I use a Nathan trail running vest.

[rocketsocks]

All weight matters, behind your ear, under your nails or lined up for removal, until it falls off, drains out or evaporates, to think otherwise is a testament to not knowing spit.

[Just Bill]

"The opinion of the ignorant is meaningless"

"The most dangerous animal in North America is Homo insapiens Nimrod Americanus. They are more dangerous than a T. Rex. Sometimes I wonder if we’ve given the T. Rex a bad rap."

"Ideas are like rope…no matter what length you carry them, they always fray at the ends."

“Frankly, my advice to those genuinely interested in walking has always been to forget the books and to get out and get on with it, relying on the two finest teachers in the business—trial and error.”

"When you are out on your own, you have only yourself to rely on. An error made back home during the packing stage could spell doom, for you do not have a cadre of subordinates to run out and retrieve the missing item. Everything is, as it should be, your own responsibility."

Colin Fletcher

From Robert Wehrman's book: "Walking Man. The secret life of Colin Fletcher"


Fletcher finished tying his bootlaces, shouldered the pack and began climbing up a glacier-smoothed ridge that would take him on north toward Oregon. As he walked, he started planning a new religion. His most profound idea was that his religion didn’t require a god. It would be based on loving the earth. Now, he was no tree hugger—far from it—but he knew without a doubt that he was walking through a cathedral and began to revere the land as a holy place. He’d heard people say that a grove of trees was like a cathedral and he now knew this to be “so much crap. A cathedral is like a grove of trees,” he would later write.

At the time of this writing, backcountry permits for some sections of the Pacific Crest Trail are sold out far in advance. The hiking boom begun by Fletcher is exploding with new, youthful vigor. Thru-hikers making these journeys will often tell you a movie or a book intrigued them . Or they got the idea online, from social media, or perhaps they heard about it from a friend.

No matter what these walkers believe, most are out there in the green world because of Fletcher’s pioneering work—whether they know it or not.

[TwoRoads]

Ah, so the fact that worn weight DOES matter is why . . . naked hiker day. Got it.

[cmoulder]

When I was younger The Complete Walker was my bible.

I still subscribe to virtually all of Fletcher's philosophy (and curmudgeonly-ness ) about self-reliance, preparedness, outdoor ethos, etc, but I am glad that others who followed him figured out ways to use new materials, designs and techniques to drastically reduce pack weight. If I still had to schlep 40lbs or more I probably wouldn't be backpacking.

[Feral Bill]

Excepting specific gear items and places, the answers to most questions posted on these forums can be answered with quotes from The Complete Walker. Perhaps CF’s collaborator from the last edition, Chip Rawlings, will do an updated version and up the percentage.