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  1. #21
    ME => GA 19AT3 rickb's Avatar
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    After reading Cosmoís post more carefully, I do have to say that his clubís policy of deleating all photoís immediately as well as never putting he cameras in camp helps address most of my concerns.

    If the cameras are here to stay (still hope they are not) I would think those kinds of policies are important ó I would like to see even more limitations, though.

    Perhaps limiting them to 100 yards of the trailhead, for example.

    In any event, I would never vandalize one placed to photograph people, but I can understand how others might think differently.

  2. #22
    Registered User Tennessee Viking's Avatar
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    1. The local AT club/ATC are doing a traffic impact study
    2. Capture illegal traffic/activities


    When doing animal studies, I usually placed the cameras at least 100 yards off trail & pointed away and usually on game trails. Some of my clubs have placed cameras at dump sites near or on trail.
    ''Tennessee Viking'
    Mountains to Sea Trail Maintainer
    Former TEHCC (AT) Maintainer
    Falls Lake Trail: 2011

  3. #23

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    This video shows what a video from the images might look like. Animals and people sharing the hiking trail at Shenandoah National Park

  4. #24
    Registered User soilman's Avatar
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    There are cameras everywhere today. This is the reality of the 21st century.
    More walking, less talking.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by maptester View Post
    This video shows what a video from the images might look like. Animals and people sharing the hiking trail at Shenandoah National Park
    Awesome video. I want to know if the video is a complete feed suggesting that that bear actual spent more time near the camera than all the hikers combined. Hmm.
    I'm not lost. I'm exploring.

  6. #26
    Registered User twilight's Avatar
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    Yes, video is pretty cool. But, from camera angle one can tell that recording wildlife was the intended subject. The humans were not the main focus of this camera shot as the ones I encountered in MA.

    Soilman, I agree, it's the reality of the 21st century. Being said from the main installer of cameras in the school district I work for. I do not expect to find cameras to record people on a wilderness trail where one goes to retreat from the 21st century for a little while.

    Thanks Cosmo for information you provided about the cameras. I am the guy in the long sleeve black shirt flipping the camera the bird at Kay Wood shelter intersection on 5/11/18.

  7. #27
    Registered User twilight's Avatar
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    Oh, Cosmo, that was around 7:30 in the morning on 5/11/18.

    Twilight

  8. #28
    ME => GA 19AT3 rickb's Avatar
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    I may have seen this on WB before, but itís worth checking out.

    https://m.youtube.com/channel/UC1jtdLcctcx6sWjsmiyuaoQ

    Not sure how far from the AT; the Trail Cam was somewhere in PA.

    The log might not be in the Wilderness by the way some define it, but it sure looks to be paradise to me.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    I may have seen this on WB before, but it’s worth checking out.

    https://m.youtube.com/channel/UC1jtdLcctcx6sWjsmiyuaoQ
    Awesome! Thanks for the link.

    w/r/t the topic, seems to me trail cam existence should be disclosed to hikers, right? I mean, if you're relieving yourself ... thinking no one is around. And sorry, in this age, I don't trust "we promise to delete them." Most people would ... but given enough people and enough cams, there will be someone who won't, for whatever reason.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    In my opinion, placing a hidden camera in the woods (public property) in places that people are likely to congregate is wrong. Very wrong.

    Especially when the camera is placed with the express intent to photograph people who are likely to be wholey unaware of the cameraís presence.

    In my opinion, it hardly matters if the camera was placed with good intentions ó though I would probably be OK with law enforcement doing this in any number number of scenarios.

    Again, just one opinion.
    Iím with you. Itís one thing when used for security purposes on private property. When itís placed in an area where itís not expected and with no signage?...thatís too close to voyeurism. I donít go to the woods to be spied on.

  11. #31

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    Right or wrong, there is no reasonable expectation of privacy on public lands or rights of way. Anyone has the same legal right to place a camera in these places as those who pass through these places. Though signs on cameras like this are nice, it is not required anymore than hikers having to display their names and address on their persons.

    That said, I would think providing a sign of why the camera is there would be a good idea to prevent vandalism from those who are tempted to vandalize them out of ignorance.

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler View Post
    Right or wrong, there is no reasonable expectation of privacy on public lands or rights of way. Anyone has the same legal right to place a camera in these places as those who pass through these places. Though signs on cameras like this are nice, it is not required anymore than hikers having to display their names and address on their persons.

    That said, I would think providing a sign of why the camera is there would be a good idea to prevent vandalism from those who are tempted to vandalize them out of ignorance.
    To a certain extent, there is no expectation of privacy in the backcountry. When i change my clothes or go to the bathroom, there’s a chance someone will see. However, my expectation of the backcountry experience is that there are trees, bears, birds, deer, mountain laurel, maybe other hikers, peace, and solitude. Not hidden cameras.

  13. #33

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    ... admittedly, the camera that Time Zone and I saw on the Cumberland Trail didnt bother me too much because it was prominently displayed and not positioned near a shelter or campsite. We even had a bit of fun with it.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traffic Jam View Post
    ... admittedly, the camera that Time Zone and I saw on the Cumberland Trail didnt bother me too much because it was prominently displayed and not positioned near a shelter or campsite. We even had a bit of fun with it.
    I also saw one on the Cumberland Trail. It surprised me and caused me to spend more time looking around the area to see what they were watching.

  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by john844 View Post
    I also saw one on the Cumberland Trail. It surprised me and caused me to spend more time looking around the area to see what they were watching.
    Did you dance a jig?

  16. #36

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    Thanks for the message Twilight...

    Just swapped over the card. PM me before tomorrow if you want a souvenir.

    Hope you had a good hike,

    Cosmo

    Quote Originally Posted by twilight View Post
    Oh, Cosmo, that was around 7:30 in the morning on 5/11/18.

    Twilight

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traffic Jam View Post
    To a certain extent, there is no expectation of privacy in the backcountry. When i change my clothes or go to the bathroom, there’s a chance someone will see. However, my expectation of the backcountry experience is that there are trees, bears, birds, deer, mountain laurel, maybe other hikers, peace, and solitude. Not hidden cameras.
    I have to say, I have mixed feelings about this, too. But the seemingly ever-growing visitor use on the Trail is (at times) a significant issue. If we are going to actually try and address it, we need some hard data to share with our management partners (and hikers) as we decide if, how, and when anything can or should be done about it. It's an extremely complex issue that will need some thoughtful attention. For more info, see: https://visitorusemanagement.nps.gov/VUM/Framework

    If our initial data proves to be helpful, it may be more efficient (and less icky) to use "dumb" sensors that just detect movement past a certain point (CT does this already), but it's difficult to determine direction (and the difference between hikers and other mammals) w/o multiple sensor points. We are making a durable label (it's just tape for now) and will prominently place them on the camera.

    In the past 3 weeks, we've had 46 overnight visitors, with a max of 9 on one night. 7 nights w/o visitors. Camp season has not started and just the leading edge of NB thruhikers is arriving now.

    Cosmo

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo View Post
    I have to say, I have mixed feelings about this, too. But the seemingly ever-growing visitor use on the Trail is (at times) a significant issue. If we are going to actually try and address it, we need some hard data to share with our management partners (and hikers) as we decide if, how, and when anything can or should be done about it. It's an extremely complex issue that will need some thoughtful attention. For more info, see: https://visitorusemanagement.nps.gov/VUM/Framework

    If our initial data proves to be helpful, it may be more efficient (and less icky) to use "dumb" sensors that just detect movement past a certain point (CT does this already), but it's difficult to determine direction (and the difference between hikers and other mammals) w/o multiple sensor points. We are making a durable label (it's just tape for now) and will prominently place them on the camera.

    In the past 3 weeks, we've had 46 overnight visitors, with a max of 9 on one night. 7 nights w/o visitors. Camp season has not started and just the leading edge of NB thruhikers is arriving now.

    Cosmo
    I would think a filter over the lens to blur the image enough that no individual was recognizable, except as being a person and not an animal, would alleviate privacy concerns.

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traffic Jam View Post
    Did you dance a jig?
    I'm not admitting anything until I know what evidence exists. Lol

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler View Post
    Anyone has the same legal right to place a camera in these places as those who pass through these places.
    You may be right, but I would be surprised.

    Being out in public places and carrying a camera is one thing. And you're right, there's generally no right to privacy if you're out in public. If you see other hikers, you get out of sight to do #1 or #2. If you're talking, people may overhear. I get that.

    But installing a camera for use when you are no longer there - strikes me as another matter entirely. Seems to me you either better own the land yourself, or get permission from those who manage it on the public's behalf. And if you do, its existence ought to be disclosed. Probably location should be disclosed too, given what good hydration habits often requires of hikers.

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