Sleeping bag rating
Anyone got a source that explains how they rate sleeping bags and what you have to be wearing in them for a given rating?
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Ramdino Roaming the Trails
No such system exists. Each manufacturer makes a guess. Additionally, my comfort level will be different than yours. So, that number they rate their bag is just a guess. The only way for you to insure comfort is trial and error. I also like the story that they come up with that rating when the see what the overnight low was when your hiking companions found your frozen corpse in the morning.
There was an excellent discussion about bag ratings here a couple of years ago, I don’t have link to the thread, but if you or someone else cab find it, it’s well worth reading. It got into EN vs. arbitrary ratings as well as how to ballpark the temperaturerating of a down bag based on the height of the loft (bag thickness).
Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.
This article at backpacking light will shed light on sleeping bag and quilt loft. Half loft or top loft is the critical number. Many bag makers omit loft in their specs. Down fill power has little to do with loft and warmth.
https://backpackinglight.com/bpl_sle...ion_statement/
Personal testing is the only valid answer.
Good luck!
Wayne
Yar-
Simple answer to your question...
If you buy from a standard retail store vendor, most adopt EN rating standards.
If you buy from a cottage vendor in the USA, most follow something close enough to the BPL loft chart. (hammock vendors tend to be a hair more conservative than backpacking vendors).
If you buy from an ali-baba supplied drop shipper on Amazon- they don't follow anything. Mil-Surplus is your call, but it has it's own system too.
If you buy a mummy bag (sleeping bag)- it will list total loft (top and bottom). If you buy a quilt- it will list loft of the quilt (top or bottom).
Generally you can divide a mummy's loft by two if comparing on a chart.
If you sleep on the ground- you need an appropriately rated sleeping pad. If you sleep in the air- you need an appropriately rated underquilt or other insulation.
If you buy a quilt- you have to know how to use it, which will take some experience. You will need appropriately rated head/face/neck insulation too.
If you buy a mummy and can't figure out how to zip it up; you should probably give up on this whole sleeping outside thing.
If you buy from a reputable vendor the rating should be fairly accurate (+/-5*) for the average user and the vendor will stand by their product.
If you buy from a discounter; you get what you pay for.
The cottage vendor chart is probably one of the most accurate, though may be slightly underrated compared to an EN comfort rating (safest temp).
Here is my 2017 version supplied to various folks- https://1drv.ms/b/s!Apygyt54yYPwg7t_c1bTvXOgLRz9BQ
This chart is unique in that it includes both synthetic and down.
it also includes a chart for Underquilts in hammock use- which is not a developed or agreed upon chart at this time.
To the best of my knowledge this is the only 'rating system' you will see for insulation used in underquilts as that's a topic not well explored or tested. As of this year, Western Mountaineering produced their first UQ but generally speaking it is still a hyper-niche market without any industry standards, lab testing, or other information similarly available for top insulation.
As fer clothes-Generally you need a half clo of base layer for the EN rated tests, probably about the same for all gear.
That is basically; light socks, light base layer (long undies and top), light hat. This SUBTRACTS roughly 5* of warmth from the rating if you choose not to wear it.
Most important of all;
Sleeping bag ratings are only valid when used as part of a complete sleep system. Insulation, clothing, experience.
If you buy a 20* quilt or sleeping bag (non-mummy) and choose not to wear a 20* hat and use 20* of insulation under you- then you also can expect the 20* rating of the bag to be fairly useless.
As you pass 40* at night the odds of going from fairly useless to completely useless increases.
At zero with a zero degree quilt and zero degree sleeping pad, if you wear no hat; You will not sleep and could die. If nothing else you'll look a good bit like Beck Weathers.
Keep in mind- most long distance hikers are also 'experienced hikers'. (a technical term) So when you pop on someplace and Twenty thru-hikers tell you they use a bag 10* past it's rating with no clothes... it is helpful to consider if you are an experienced thru-hiker who is spending months at a time outdoors conditioned to sleeping outdoors. If you are off the couch for a weekend, then you are not going to see those same results.
EN ratings are based upon fit twenty somethings, programmed into a metal dummy, and tested in climate controlled laboratory conditions If you are not a fit twenty something then you probably won't sleep as warm either. If you are asking this question, then you should be very conservative in your insulation choices until you know enough to know enough to use the bare minimum.
As fer the discussions the sarcastic fellow making out with the raccoon mentioned; if you search my name here and on hammock forums you will find more annoying crap than you'd ever want to read.
If you'd care for some annoying crap to read- here is a folder of some documents I share with customers and others.
https://1drv.ms/f/s!Apygyt54yYPwg7srK33T28IhEMwDdQ
Some info on the general topic, like the mammut study, are in the first folder and worth a quick spin. Other info is for nerds only.
You'll also see a folder labeled just a quilt with some videos and more specific items.
There's videos in there of a talking tablecloth explaining some tips and tricks.
I've posted this idea I have before.....
May not be exactly right, but I think it plays out well in my limited experience...and based on the 10° F overage most folks seem to report (a 20° bag will be good to around 30°)
so somebody here pointed me to this page about the affect of stacking quilts.
https://support.enlightenedequipment...-Sleep-Systems
looking at their numbers it seems to base of a 70°F baseline.
I'm thinking about it this way. If your personal comfort is sleeping in 70° ambient with no coverings at all, then maybe the ratings are fairly close.
For me, I'm not likely to kick off all my covers, sheets and all, till it gets closer to 80° or so
so 10° difference
This has always played out for me....
my 20° rated car camping slumberjack seems good to me down around the freezing point....about 10° difference
my 45° quilt, seems good down to around 52° or so..... approx 10° degree difference
and so on.....
so
my theory is that if you routinely would kick off all covers at 75°, then you could likely get pretty close to adding 5° to the ratings.
Tks all for your input.
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Ramdino Roaming the Trails
The quilt stacking chart doesn't tie into your theory, but your theory is otherwise sound.Originally Posted by blw2
(The formula has more to do with insulation ratings and is 70*minus the rating of your outer quilt= how much insulation you will add to your inner quilt in degrees f.)
Know thyself.
Hard to do when you are starting but your general premise is a decent basepoint to get started.
Check the thermostat at home and see what it's set to (with the caveat that most thermostats do not reflect the actual temp).
Hot sleepers are those that can sleep on the couch in their underwear around 70 (no cover)
Average sleepers need a little something (clothing or cover)
Cold sleepers need a heavy sheet or blanket to sleep.
I don't mean nap, and wake up in a bit... I mean sleep.
A more relevant way to perform that experiment is to sleep on your sleeping pad on the floor in your normal sleepwear.
A better way to sort this out is over a season or two of backyard or car camping in several seasons... when you have access to stores and gear.
But the old rule of thumb is easiest-
Add 10* to the average low temp.
Women and men over 30 add 5* more.
Cold sleepers add 10* more.
If you find you've over done it... that's an easier problem to solve than being cold.
Over the years you get experience and dial it in better.
Experience means knowing yourself and the gear you selected.
Experience also means learning to sleep outside. Many people wake up in the woods for many reasons, then blame being cold as the reason for waking up or continued sleeplessness. It does take some practice to sleep outside for those of us used to living indoors. More and more of us work indoors too. We all still have that primal part of our brain that warns us we are in an unfamiliar place... and laying around in a sleeping bag is a decent way to get cold if something has gone bump in the night that's easier to blame on the bag. Also hard to warm back up a bag when you get up to pee and return to a cold bag with a chilled body you are not used to having at home.
In technical terms- 'experienced sleeper' is also someone conditioned to sleeping outdoors. The body naturally adapts to our environment. So the hiker out for three months at a crack (or the military member the tests were based upon) will operate differently internally than the weekend hiker who is conditioned to sleeping in a climate controlled house. If the wind kicks up.. the experienced sleeper may roll over without actually disrupting sleep. Or curl up to a more heat retentive position when the night's low temp arrives and trap more heat. Many will actually increase their metabolism without waking up.
While some find that fantasy... when was the last time you consciously increased your breathing or heart rate because you were walking uphill? You can focus on your breath or heartbeat, but if you don't pay attention they generally continue on quite well enough without you butting in. I'm not exactly sure how one would meditate on their metabolism, but you may literally rest assured that your body can crank up the thermostat a bit with experience. Your body also eventually learns that being 'just the slightest bit chilled' is not enough of an alarm to wake up the grey man upstairs and will simply figure it out unless it gets critical. If you sleep in a house any change in the constant temp you are conditioned too is an alarm bell indicating an issue.
When you hear about that person who 'can sleep anywhere' or the soldier who can nap on a moments notice... that's what is meant by 'experienced sleeper' in scientific terms.
If conditions change, they change with them. If they do wake up, they fall right back asleep. If the insulation is 5* off... they warm up without waking up.
They are used to sleeping in strange places in less than perfect conditions- mentally, sub-consciously, and metabolically.
Sleeping gear selection has a stunningly simple solution- take too much and be very comfortable.
Difficulty with the topic occurs when you mix sleeping gear with backpacking philosophy such as 'doing more with less' and 'taking just what you need' which is when things get extraordinarily difficult.
Experience takes time, cannot be bought, and requires accepting you have no control over what the ol bitch Ma Nature sends your way... or to quote Ms. Maggert:
I still only travel by foot and by foot, it's a slow climb
But I'm good at being uncomfortable so
I can't stop changing all the time
I noticed that my opponent is always on the go
- And -
Won't go slow, so 's not to focus, and I notice
He'll hitch a ride with any guide, as long as
They go fast from whence he came
But he's no good at being uncomfortable, so
He can't stop staying exactly the same
If there was a better way to go then it would find me
I can't help it, the road just rolls out behind me
Be kind to me, or treat me mean
I'll make the most of it, I'm an extraordinary machine
one bit i'll add to the conversation is that your own comfort level can fluctuate with the conditions. if you go to bed hungry, you might sleep colder. if you go to bed not quite properly hydrated, you might sleep colder. if you go to bed in the clothes you've been wearing all day you'll most likely sleep colder. the humidity and wind exposure, stress levels... and on
Quite true... know thyself. (or add another 10*)
It's also fun to have the 'there is no such thing as 40*) debate
And I have found that even though one may be a hot sleeper at home, dehydration on the trail (which is typical for me), will cause one to sleep colder.Quite true... know thyself. (or add another 10*
It's also fun to have the 'there is no such thing as 40*) debate
As said, it’s difficult to really know thyself until thee has experienced hiking conditions.
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There's a reason so many carry a 20* quilt.. bit of a catch all for all the variables that one needs a decade or so to sort out.
And then it turns out you're a decade older and might need to start sorting out new variables, lol.
I'm a super nerd, who got into SUL, FKT gear, and building things for other folks. I don't mind nerding out.
But these days the impact of picking between one quilt and one 10* warmer is ounces... so 90% of the time when people ask me a 20* quilt, Neo Air Xtherm, and good sleep hat will get you through 90% of the trips 90% of the people take(three seasons, freezing and up).
Safe bet for nearly everyone to around 30*... and often 3-4lbs all in. With all the advances in gear that's little penalty to pay to avoid reading reams of materials, agonizing over specs, or waiting around until you acquire 500+ nights of experience in many seasons. Plenty of us here who remember having 3-4 pound 30* bags that were often a bust around 45*... if anything there is so much good stuff I understand why people's head's spin.
from there... you start getting too hot, then add a summer quilt to the quiver. Start going out often below freezing... add a zero degree mummy bag.
40/20/0 for most or 50/30/10 for others and you've got every piece of sleep gear you could ever need. Xtherm is good to zero and you can one and done that or add a neo-air for warmer temps to shave a few ounces.
Spend a few bucks on quality stuff and it's only about a pound difference from the summer bag to the winter bag. Certainly not enough to stress over.
You wanna spend less bucks... then understand you're trading something for the savings... though not as much as you did 10 years ago.
If you get out and have problems- then solve them.
But just get out. Even if you copy the perfect kit from some expert... nobody builds a perfect kit the first time out.
And you will never solve the catch 22 of gaining experience until you go gain some.
Hell, curious myself-
20* revelation from EE- $285 @ 21 oz.
Hoodlum from EE- $60 @ 1.5oz
Basic liner hat- free @ 1.5 oz
Large Xtherm- $240 @ 20 oz
I come up with $585 and 44 oz... give yourself four ounces slop (Pad straps, sleep socks or liner gloves) and you're at 3lbs even. Very small pack size, three seasons, will last you a decade. Technically top of the line stuff.
Swap a hoodlum for a cheap fleece balaclava and save $50.
Add a summer quilt and learn to stack them and for a few hundred more you are covered from zero to 90* with five pieces of gear.
Prefer a mummy... buy the REI Magma 10 on sale for $260 with a 25% member coupon and you can ditch the hoodlum.
Adds 9 ounces and takes you a hair past 3lbs but you don't have to worry about learning how to use a quilt or busting drafts.
Want save more- buy a top quilt from the cottage vendors on the hammock side.
Bill, you never have a simple answer to any question. Yes. No. Those are simple answers. You...you write a book. An informative book, but still, a book :-)
that's pretty much what I was getting at, and i think it does seem to hinge around 70 degrees.....
If you sleep on the sofa as Bill described comfortably at 70, then the ratings are probably on the mark for you.
If you sleep comfortably at 75 degrees, but 70 is too cold with no cover, then add 5 to the rating
most people seem to add about 10. That matches my limited experience.
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