Forest Service arresting protesters along the AT

[John B]

https://www.outsideonline.com/230061...-save-pipeline

[Alligator]

This discussion previously got out of hand, I can't imagine given the lead in news story the discussion will improve.

[Alligator]

It is important though, I suppose if folks were chill you might come up with something reasonable regarding the situation? And hypothetical if not legal and most certainly not violent. I've got a lot of stuff to do this weekend I won't have time to read much, be good.

Just out of curiosity, where exactly is that tree sitter anyway?

[Starchild]

They issued an emergency closure within 150 feet of the structure, a move that has deprived the monopod-sitter, who goes by the trail name Nutty, of additional food and water supplies for at least three weeks now.

I wonder if some sort of sling shot could be used to resupply Nutty.

[map man]

If maps I have seen are correct the pipeline crosses the AT around 4 miles north of Rice Field Shelter and less than a mile before a NOBO gets to Symms Gap Meadow. Is that right? I ask because I will be hiking in that very spot less than two weeks from now on a section hike and am hoping that: a) the trail isn't closed; b) I don't find myself in the midst of some confrontation.

[TexasBob]

If maps I have seen are correct the pipeline crosses the AT around 4 miles north of Rice Field Shelter and less than a mile before a NOBO gets to Symms Gap Meadow. Is that right? I ask because I will be hiking in that very spot less than two weeks from now on a section hike and am hoping that: a) the trail isn't closed; b) I don't find myself in the midst of some confrontation.

Please give us a trip report when you get back. Enjoy your hike.

[FreeGoldRush]

I wonder if some sort of sling shot could be used to resupply Nutty.

Don't use a drone. It would be too easy. And someone probably made sure that's not legal.

[FreeGoldRush]

Don't use a drone. It would be too easy. And someone probably made sure that's not legal.

Although my research shows that it is only illegal to land, take off, or operate a drone from a national forest. If all you are doing is flying over one, then FAA rules apply, not USFS rules. So as an academic excercise only, I am curious if they have managed to get the FAA to disallow flyovers of Nutty.

Just to be clear: I am not an attorney. I am an engineer and I have built drones, so I have studied the laws around them a bit. In absolutely no way would I advocate someone doing this without carefully researching for some crazy nuance or recent change to the law.

[BlackCloud]

What an awesome article. A few points, if I may:

* Doesn't the USFS limit the number of consecutive days one can camp at the same spot?
* When you "ducked the caution tape", AKA Police tape, what did you THINK was going to happen?
* It says there are 60 pipelines currently crossing the AT. I guess 61 is the point of no return...
* Or is it the fact that this pipeline is a a whopping 42" as opposed to the more reasonable 36"?
* Law enforcement officers are issued tactical rifles, not assault rifles
* How would bats be adversely affected by the construction and/or operation of a pipeline, & which endangered species therein are they alluding to but not naming?
* Even the rock is "fragile" now?
* I often purchase organic meat, but have never heard of organic cattle
* I wonder if Nutty is exercising Leave No Trace principles....

Please post more articles as this unfolds!

[Gambit McCrae]

These nuts in trees have caused more litter and debris then the pipeline will (once complete). Thing I love most about these kind of snowflakes is in the end, the pipeline will still be laid, and they will have crapped in a bucket and lived in a box, on a pole for several months.

It would be real hard to have a walking trail run thru 14 states without it crossing amenities to most peoples everyday life. I haven't ever heard anyone complaining about "that" road crossing the trail when they want to hitch into town....And I would almost guarantee that most yayhoos walk over pipelines on the AT every year and never bat an eye....Why you may ask?? BECAUSE ITS UNDERGROUND.

[Traveler]

This can denigrate quickly if we de-humanize people who are trying to bring attention to an issue they feel strongly about.

Activists by definition bring attention to an issue. Were it not for some of these "nuts", "snowflakes", "treehuggers", ad infinitum, there would not be public attention to some very important issues in our history and will be in the future. One can certainly question the value of what activists are doing at any given time and/or work against their causes their position is not aligned with what others think. When activists are in the open like this, it essentially becomes a competition of ideas playing out in American society.
Arguably, activists have made positive impacts with many issues resulting in great changes to our society and health. Women's right to vote a great example of how activists have benefited society. These are the people who capture the attention of the public for issues like clean water and air, so their processes may seem odd if not silly at times to reach a level it will be commented and reported on to gain social traction.

While we should, can, and do question these moments of activism and the issue they are voicing, its hard to imagine what life would be like today in the US without them.

[Gambit McCrae]

Activists bring attention to an issue. Were it not for some of these "nuts", "snowflakes", "treehuggers", ad infinitum, there would not be the public attention to environmental issues there is today, protection of wildlife, and set asides of land for the public. One can certainly question the value of what activists are doing at any given time and work against their causes. When activists are in the open like this, it essentially becomes a competition of ideas playing out in American society.

Arguably, activists have had positive impacts in many issues resulting in great changes to our society and health. Women's right to vote a great example of activist impact along with issues of having clean water to drink and air to breathe. While we can and do question these moments of activism, its hard not to imagine what life would be like today without them.

pro·test·er
noun
plural noun: protester
a person who publicly demonstrates strong objection to something; a demonstrator.

ac·tiv·ist
noun
noun: activist; plural noun: activists

• 1.
  A person who campaigns to bring about political or social change.
  
  
  
  

[Traveler]

pro·test·er
noun
plural noun: protester
a person who publicly demonstrates strong objection to something; a demonstrator.

ac·tiv·ist
noun
noun: activist; plural noun: activists

• 1.
  A person who campaigns to bring about political or social change.

A protestor by any other name is an activist. Semantics aside.

[peakbagger]

There was a similar utility corridor project in NH. There was an existing lower voltage power line right of way crossing the AT just south of South Kinsman. The existing power line crossed the national forest via special use permit and the proposed right of way expansion would be visible for quite a distance. The proposed new utility lines were much taller and required a wider right of way to support a HVDC line. Initially the utility planned on no special protections for this crossing and cross country route claiming they had to the right to do what they pleased. Soon the AMC and other groups published computer simulations of the visual impact and let it be know they would be pushing back. At some point the utility started to backpedal and the proposed crossing was narrowed and less impact poles were proposed but the proposed changes still were a major impact and the overall impact through the forest was still quite significant. The utility, then well into the permitting proposed burying 40 plus miles of lines along existing roads to substantially bypass the whites with the one major crossing being done on the side of an existing road through Kinsman Notch a few miles south of the original crossing. The utility didn't do this out of the goodness of their hearts, they realized that messing with a national forest brings in national attention. In this case the National Forest didn't have to cave in as a state permitting process superseded it and there was a organized statewide group opposing it. To date the project was denied a state permit and is effectively on hold pending a potential appeal process. The utility claims that they have spent in excess of $250 million, rapidly heading to $300 million on the project with out a shovel touching the ground. Due to the delay, the utility lost out of lucrative contract with Massachusetts but there is still potentially lots of money to be made so the utility is going to continue to pursue the project.

The difference for NH is the federal process for siting of major energy projects is loaded towards approving them with little state feedback. The army corp tends to follow the FERC. The EPA has stringent rules for wetlands and construction but many states have accepted delegated authority for environmental laws which means the state interprets the EPA rules. In a "business friendly state", generally the governor and legislature can control the state EPA leading to rubber stamping of the project despite violating federal law. Luckily NH has a strong energy project siting law that sets a reasonable bar on preventing mega projects from overwhelming small landowners and localities. It is somewhat protected from the political process and despite the governor trying to pack the deck, the energy siting committee voted unanimously not to grant the permit.

[D2maine]

There was a similar utility corridor project in NH. There was an existing lower voltage power line right of way crossing the AT just south of South Kinsman. The existing power line crossed the national forest via special use permit and the proposed right of way expansion would be visible for quite a distance. The proposed new utility lines were much taller and required a wider right of way to support a HVDC line. Initially the utility planned on no special protections for this crossing and cross country route claiming they had to the right to do what they pleased. Soon the AMC and other groups published computer simulations of the visual impact and let it be know they would be pushing back. At some point the utility started to backpedal and the proposed crossing was narrowed and less impact poles were proposed but the proposed changes still were a major impact and the overall impact through the forest was still quite significant. The utility, then well into the permitting proposed burying 40 plus miles of lines along existing roads to substantially bypass the whites with the one major crossing being done on the side of an existing road through Kinsman Notch a few miles south of the original crossing. The utility didn't do this out of the goodness of their hearts, they realized that messing with a national forest brings in national attention. In this case the National Forest didn't have to cave in as a state permitting process superseded it and there was a organized statewide group opposing it. To date the project was denied a state permit and is effectively on hold pending a potential appeal process. The utility claims that they have spent in excess of $250 million, rapidly heading to $300 million on the project with out a shovel touching the ground. Due to the delay, the utility lost out of lucrative contract with Massachusetts but there is still potentially lots of money to be made so the utility is going to continue to pursue the project.

The difference for NH is the federal process for siting of major energy projects is loaded towards approving them with little state feedback. The army corp tends to follow the FERC. The EPA has stringent rules for wetlands and construction but many states have accepted delegated authority for environmental laws which means the state interprets the EPA rules. In a "business friendly state", generally the governor and legislature can control the state EPA leading to rubber stamping of the project despite violating federal law. Luckily NH has a strong energy project siting law that sets a reasonable bar on preventing mega projects from overwhelming small landowners and localities. It is somewhat protected from the political process and despite the governor trying to pack the deck, the energy siting committee voted unanimously not to grant the permit.

all NH succeeded in doing is get the project moved to Maine and it is going to cross the AT here in Maine on the existing CMP right of way by Joe's Hole on Moxie Pond.

https://bangordailynews.com/2018/02/...in-power-deal/

https://www.pressherald.com/2017/07/...massachusetts/

ect ect...

[JPritch]

This can denigrate quickly if we de-humanize people who are trying to bring attention to an issue they feel strongly about.

Activists by definition bring attention to an issue. Were it not for some of these "nuts", "snowflakes", "treehuggers", ad infinitum, there would not be public attention to some very important issues in our history and will be in the future. One can certainly question the value of what activists are doing at any given time and/or work against their causes their position is not aligned with what others think. When activists are in the open like this, it essentially becomes a competition of ideas playing out in American society.
Arguably, activists have made positive impacts with many issues resulting in great changes to our society and health. Women's right to vote a great example of how activists have benefited society. These are the people who capture the attention of the public for issues like clean water and air, so their processes may seem odd if not silly at times to reach a level it will be commented and reported on to gain social traction.

While we should, can, and do question these moments of activism and the issue they are voicing, its hard to imagine what life would be like today in the US without them.

That's the wisest thing I've read in a long time. And I am typically anti-"snowflake", protestors, etc... It got me to thinking that if we hit rewind to 50 years ago, I'm sure a large portion of folks felt the same way about the actions of MLK, or rewind another 50 years on the rights of women. So thank you for keeping things in perspective for me!

[Rain Man]

Thank God for those "nuts" and "snowflakes" who brought us clean water and clean air. My wife is from Cleveland, where a river once caught on fire. I drove through Chattanooga yesterday, where once I couldn't from one side of the city to the other due to the smog.

Thank God for nuts and snowflakes!!!

[Starchild]

Although my research shows that it is only illegal to land, take off, or operate a drone from a national forest. If all you are doing is flying over one, then FAA rules apply, not USFS rules. So as an academic excercise only, I am curious if they have managed to get the FAA to disallow flyovers of Nutty.

Just to be clear: I am not an attorney. I am an engineer and I have built drones, so I have studied the laws around them a bit. In absolutely no way would I advocate someone doing this without carefully researching for some crazy nuance or recent change to the law.

There is the issue of dropping items (resupply) from a aircraft.

[devoidapop]

Thank God for those "nuts" and "snowflakes" who brought us clean water and clean air. My wife is from Cleveland, where a river once caught on fire. I drove through Chattanooga yesterday, where once I couldn't from one side of the city to the other due to the smog.

Thank God for nuts and snowflakes!!!

I don't understand snowflake as an insult.

Snowflakes are all made of the same thing yet completely unique.
Yes they are fragile, but if you get enough of them together they can transform a landscape.

[TNhiker]

This (modern day) country was, basically, founded by a protest......