Forest Service arresting protesters along the AT

[OCDave]

Thank God for those "nuts" and "snowflakes" who brought us clean water and clean air. My wife is from Cleveland, where a river once caught on fire. I drove through Chattanooga yesterday, where once I couldn't from one side of the city to the other due to the smog.

Thank God for nuts and snowflakes!!!

+1

I am thankful there are those willing to shoulder the burden. The efforts of the dedicated few benefit us all.

[Runner2017]

https://www.outsideonline.com/230061...-save-pipeline

According to the linked article, "Forest Service officers*and private security contractors paid by the pipeline owners have upped security*at the sites."

The above lines reminds me of William S. Burroughs's Thankgiving Prayer of 1986:

https://youtu.be/sLSveRGmpIE

"Thanks for the wild turkey and the passenger pigeons, destined to be **** out through wholesome American guts.*

Thanks for a continent to despoil and poison.

Thanks for Indians to provide a modicum of challenge and danger.*

Thanks for vast herds of bison to kill and skin leaving the carcasses to rot.

Thanks for bounties on wolves and coyotes.*

Thanks for the American dream, to vulgarize and falsify until the bare lies shine through.*

Thanks for the KKK.*

For ******-killin’ lawmen, feelin’ their notches.*

For decent church-goin’ women, with their mean, pinched, bitter, evil faces.*

Thanks for*“Kill a Queer for Christ" stickers.*

Thanks for laboratory AIDS.*

Thanks for Prohibition and the War Against Drugs.*

Thanks for a country where nobody’s allowed to mind his own business.*

Thanks for a nation of finks.*

Yes, thanks for all the memories – all right let’s see your arms!*

You always were a headache and you always were a bore.*

Thanks for the last and greatest betrayal of the last and greatest of human dreams."

[Tundracamper]

Say what you want... the reality is that hikers do not own the trail. A small detail that was noted in the article was that the protesters were trespassing. If you don't like something, defying the law is usually not the best approach. This is not analogous to starting a new country. It's a pipeline in the woods. No sympathy from me.

[FreeGoldRush]

Say what you want... the reality is that hikers do not own the trail. A small detail that was noted in the article was that the protesters were trespassing. If you don't like something, defying the law is usually not the best approach. This is not analogous to starting a new country. It's a pipeline in the woods. No sympathy from me.

The modification of the "forest protection plan" to allow this pipeline is what struck me. People were promised one thing about how this public land would be used, but then large corporations wanted to put a pipeline through there and simply changed the rules.

What is the point in having rules if those in power can change them when it suits them?

Keep in mind that I have strong libertarian views and rarely side with tree huggers.

[gpburdelljr]

The modification of the "forest protection plan" to allow this pipeline is what struck me. People were promised one thing about how this public land would be used, but then large corporations wanted to put a pipeline through there and simply changed the rules.

What is the point in having rules if those in power can change them when it suits them?

As long as the population keeps growing, and keeps using gas and electricity, pipelines and power lines will keep being built. Rules are changed because people demand it, not because of large evil corporations. It’s simply supply and demand economics.

[Uncle Joe]

The modification of the "forest protection plan" to allow this pipeline is what struck me. People were promised one thing about how this public land would be used, but then large corporations wanted to put a pipeline through there and simply changed the rules.
What is the point in having rules if those in power can change them when it suits them?
Keep in mind that I have strong libertarian views and rarely side with tree huggers.

I'm with you. I'm about as right-wing as they come. I'm conservative and for me the root being "conserve" I'm fine and in fact encourage setting aside natural areas. I'm also fine with running a pipeline for natural gas. However, when you set aside something and you've billed that as "protected" it should remain so. The fact that they had to change something that was to remain unchanged bothers me.

That said, those involved have said they intend to do this right. Whether they do or not remains to be seen. I'm not, by any means, saying I trust them but ultimately they have the power. I think sometimes the "protestors" are quick to say the sky is falling when the impact might very well be far less. OTOH, when you have to change the rules to get something done it's also understandable.

I think the protestors crossed the line when they built a structure. They needed to find a way to stay within the rules of the forest service but make their point.

[rocketsocks]

As long as the population keeps growing, and keeps using gas and electricity, pipelines and power lines will keep being built. Rules are changed because people demand it, not because of large evil corporations. It’s simply supply and demand economics.

this ^^^^, and, it happens all the time...how was the AT completed? In and around through TN?

[OCDave]

Say what you want... the reality is that hikers do not own the trail. A small detail that was noted in the article was that the protesters were trespassing. If you don't like something, defying the law is usually not the best approach. This is not analogous to starting a new country. It's a pipeline in the woods. No sympathy from me.

Would you be more sympathetic if the protest involved kneeling during the national anthem? There are numerous exmples of protests which defied the law the benefits of which you enjoy today.

[FreeGoldRush]

As long as the population keeps growing, and keeps using gas and electricity, pipelines and power lines will keep being built. Rules are changed because people demand it, not because of large evil corporations. It’s simply supply and demand economics.

That actually is not true. Rules change when people who have the power to change rules benefit from the change. I'm a libertarian business owner. I don't put up with flakes. But I can assure you that these corporations did not pursue this by concerning themselves with what "people" were demanding. They have a legal requirement to concern themselves with the demands of their shareholders only. They cannot act any other way.

[gpburdelljr]

As long as the population keeps growing, and keeps using gas and electricity, pipelines and power lines will keep being built. Rules are changed because people demand it, not because of large evil corporations. It’s simply supply and demand economics.

That actually is not true. Rules change when people who have the power to change rules benefit from the change. I'm a libertarian business owner. I don't put up with flakes. But I can assure you that these corporations did not pursue this by concerning themselves with what "people" were demanding. They have a legal requirement to concern themselves with the demands of their shareholders only. They cannot act any other way.

If there was no demand, there would be no corporation building something to supply it.

[FreeGoldRush]

If there was no demand, there would be no corporation building something to supply it.

I'm not arguing the demand for energy. I'm talking about the demand to go through the national forest instead of around it.

[peakbagger]

Like it or not National Forests are managed as lands for multiple use and that includes economic and commercial activities. NFs are managed under 10 year plans where the forest is effectively "zoned" as to what activities are allowed in each zone. There is also a special use permit process that allows the forest supervisor wide latitude in make exceptions to the rules in place. Much as people want to think a NF is all wilderness, mining, oil and gas extraction, logging and pipelines are all multiple uses that may be permitted either through the forest planning or the special use process. In general anytime some entity is making a request for some use not in the plan, the first question is if there is way of accomplishing the ultimate project without impacting FS lands? Various parties weigh in both pro and con but ultimately its the chief forest supervisor for the particular NF that makes the decision. Unfortunately FS supervisors serve at the whim of the FS management and going against the FS management in DC is career killer. The FS may not be able to fire a person outright but there are some very unpleasant assignments that can be used to punish or drive someone out of the system. I heard of one such location years ago which was somewhere up in Alaska in a cabin on leaky log raft way off the grid with few options for resupply or human contact. Some folks might enjoy the experience but to a career supervisor with family its probably a good hint that they might want to find another profession. The White mountain national forest is generally regarded as an easy near retirement gig, frequently its the last job a FS supervisor ends up with prior to their retirement and most are not interested in rocking that boat. Not sure on the political winds for the pipeline project but expect it was decision made high up on the FS.

Note that there is one way to effectively make a NF area reasonably untouchable by the FS and that is Wilderness designation. The land in designated wilderness is managed to a forever wild preservationist standard and the FS has little options to deviate from the plan. The only way something like a pipeline would be allowed would be to change its classification to something other than a Wilderness Area and that requires congress to vote. I am not aware of that happening very often if ever. Note if you look at the AT in the whites, great care has been made in several areas to deliberate exclude the AT and other points of interest from Wilderness areas. The most obvious example is the Guyot shelter located south of the AT. The only other option is a National Park designation which is managed to a different set of standards, it is still a political entity but there is much larger public support for the NPS.

[KDogg]

I find it odd that many would tolerate a pipeline going through the woods but the minute I turn on my phone to call somebody or check email I'm taking away from their experience.

[soilman]

* How would bats be adversely affected by the construction and/or operation of a pipeline, & which endangered species therein are they alluding to but not naming?

10 different threatened and endangered species found in the forest. http://wildvirginia.org/publications...gered-species/

Shaggy barked trees such as hickory are used as roosts by bats in summer. Removal of summer habitat contributes to the decline of the Indiana bat.

[soilman]

I use oil and gas and realize that pipelines are part of the supply process. What I have a problem with is that the NFS states they could not follow their management plan and had to alter it to accommodate the pipeline. Why couldn't the NFS work with ATC and other groups to accommodate their interests? There has to be alternatives that would be mutually acceptable but money talks. I can't imagine losing part of my land to a pipeline without putting up a fight. Regardless of ones political leanings, we all should support citizens rights to peacefully voice their opposition to this project. Call these people what you will but I think they are courageous to stand up for something they strongly believe in.

[Uncle Joe]

I use oil and gas and realize that pipelines are part of the supply process. What I have a problem with is that the NFS states they could not follow their management plan and had to alter it to accommodate the pipeline. Why couldn't the NFS work with ATC and other groups to accommodate their interests? There has to be alternatives that would be mutually acceptable but money talks. I can't imagine losing part of my land to a pipeline without putting up a fight. Regardless of ones political leanings, we all should support citizens rights to peacefully voice their opposition to this project. Call these people what you will but I think they are courageous to stand up for something they strongly believe in.

Agreed. I'm glad they're speaking up. It's their right. I think we're getting to a point in this country where you simply divide and root for you team. We're seeing politics spread to everything and with it the "teamism" that comes with it. Let them protest but let them also have consequences for it. If they get arrested, that's part of the price. But also may they be heard. I don't particularly want a pipeline going across the trail either. If they're successful in stopping it, then good! If not, it will be just another crossing among many others.

[Sarcasm the elf]

http://www.roanoke.com/news/local/at...ign=user-share

[FreeGoldRush]

http://www.roanoke.com/news/local/at...ign=user-share

Of course they are driving ATV's on the Appalachian Trail. It's one set of rules for them and another set for us. You will always be told the rules are different for you because it's for your own good. Quite often the rules are simply there to benefit one group over another.

I believe the no-ATV rule is appropriate for everyone on the trail.

[Runner2017]

Of It's one set of rules for them and another set for us. You will always be told the rules are different for you because it's for your own good.

Freedom is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed. That's the case.

[Malto]

Of course they are driving ATV's on the Appalachian Trail. It's one set of rules for them and another set for us. You will always be told the rules are different for you because it's for your own good. Quite often the rules are simply there to benefit one group over another.

I believe the no-ATV rule is appropriate for everyone on the trail.

I have little problem with this pipeline, I heat my home with Natural Gas and pipelines are the least worst way for that distribution. BUT, they should not be riding ATVs down the trail, period.