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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by D2maine View Post
    this assumes facts not in evidence
    Less so, than opposite view.
    "Inevitably, a long distance hiker must choose between travelling light, and not travelling at all." - Earl V. Shaffer

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    The AT is no longer the epicenter of the world's hiking venues.
    was it ever? i have my doubts.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    When you get down to it, neither is a canoe for hikers necessary.
    very true. i really dont know why the AT isnt just routed over the nearest motor vehicle bridge. my guesses are theres some historical reason behind the location, theres issues with land access or its to avoid a roadwalk or something else otherwise undesirable.

    but if it is going to cross where it crosses then some means of getting people across is probably wise.

    as for not liking the canoe- i remember and likely will always remember crossing the kennebec because it was in a canoe. if it was a bridge i walked across its very doubtful i would.

  4. #44

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    Short version is MATC and NPS spent a lot of time and money in the 80s to lock the trail route through protected lands and have spent a lot more time and money getting the footbed in shape over these reroutes. The Maine Huts and Trails route that connects to the AT near Long Falls Dam road could access a bridge crossing over the Kennebec runs over private and Native American owned lands until RT 201. With a road walk south to Caratunk it could avoid the boat crossing.

    The original AT route would have required serious aqua blazing as it is now under Flagstaff lake. This was formerly the Dead River prior to the dam being built flooding two towns not long after the AT was built. The original AT guides have descriptions of both the original AT route and the Arnold Trail and either route was official. Prior to the dam going in, they switched to the current Arnold Trail route which is a historical trail used by the Arnold expedition to attack Quebec during the revolutionary war. Think of them hauling large boats up out of the river up the steep slope and then through the woods when you hike through there. Mt Bigelow is named after the second in command as Mt Benedict Arnold may not a name that stuck a around long

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by D2maine View Post
    this assumes facts not in evidence
    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    Less so, than opposite view.
    That makes absolutely no sense.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by peakbagger View Post
    Short version is MATC and NPS spent a lot of time and money in the 80s to lock the trail route through protected lands and have spent a lot more time and money getting the footbed in shape over these reroutes.
    again, i dont remotely know all the details, but i wonder if maybe dedicating a great wealth of resources to a trail route that had issues with crossing the river was wise or not. perhaps other avenues were attempted and failed.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by gpburdelljr View Post
    That makes absolutely no sense.
    Plenty of evidence that a percentage of hikers prefer not to take canoe ride. In spite of hazard . Theres those that ford, and for every one that do, many talked about it and chicken out.

    Wheres evidence that anyone would prefer canoe ride to another less hazardous option. Zero.

    Given a suspension bridge or guy with canoe at same spot, same time....how many would get in canoe instead of walking across? Thats your ultimate answer. My prediction....virtually none. And that dont take into account
    Restrictive hours of operation, or the wait either.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 11-01-2018 at 11:52.
    "Inevitably, a long distance hiker must choose between travelling light, and not travelling at all." - Earl V. Shaffer

  8. #48
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    The only complaints that I have read about the canoe ride are the limited hours of operation. I have not personally been there so I am not stating my opinion. I read numerous journals every year and watch as many vlogs as I can stomach, I don't remember anyone complaining about it(the ride itself) or voicing another preference.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by D2maine View Post
    Some info to clear up some misconceptions about the Kennebec crossing

    The river is approximately 400-450 feet across at Caratunk, but a bridge would have to be a fair amount longer, my guess is 600 or more feet, to clear the banks and to be above the potential spring flood height and to also stay clear of the ice dams that happen every few winters up there.

    The nearest existing bridge is 13 miles south as the crow flies in Bingham. In reality is more like a 20ish mile logging road walk down Bowtown Road and Carry Pond Roads.

    The only other way across is to the north and would require using the Maine huts and trails system starting near Long Falls Dam road to cross the Dead River and onto their parking lot on rt 201. Then roadwalk from just above the forks roughly 8 miles down a very twisty heavy trafficked dangerous rt 201 to Caratunk. This would take you way way off the AT skipping over 17ish miles of the AT.

    The last way to get across that I can think of is to use the Arnold Trail to shortcut the route to Bingham. Leaving the AT on the west side of East Carry Pond and following that to Carry Pond Road and then on to Bingham, 12ish miles or so.
    Speaking of your ice jams on the Kennebec. Last Winter just above Caratunk. They can get worse and these broke up just before getting worse. It's quite the racket when these break up and a small wall of water heads downstream.
    005.JPG006.JPG007.JPG008.JPG

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    Plenty of evidence that a percentage of hikers prefer not to take canoe ride. In spite of hazard . Theres those that ford, and for every one that do, many talked about it and chicken out.

    Wheres evidence that anyone would prefer canoe ride to another less hazardous option. Zero.

    Given a suspension bridge or guy with canoe at same spot, same time....how many would get in canoe instead of walking across? Thats your ultimate answer. My prediction....virtually none. And that dont take into account
    Restrictive hours of operation, or the wait either.
    The fact that some ford the river is not evidence that they prefer it over the canoe. The fact that they do it does not make it a fact that they prefer it. Maybe they just donít want to wait for the canoe, maybe they want to cool off in the water, which is also not a fact, but speculation just like your statement is not fact, or evidence, just speculation.

    Your prediction that virtually no people would take the canoe if a bridge was available is only a prediction, based on no facts. Maybe after so much walking a short canoe ride might be a pleasant distraction, but thatís also not a prediction, or fact, just a possibility.

  11. #51

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    Muddy, you've provided no evidence whatsoever for the claim that most hikers prefer not to take the canoe.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by gpburdelljr View Post
    Your prediction that virtually no people would take the canoe if a bridge was available is only a prediction, based on no facts. Maybe after so much walking a short canoe ride might be a pleasant distraction, but thatís also not a prediction, or fact, just a possibility.
    i think if i arrived at a river and had my option of walking across a bridge or being paddled across in the canoe theres a very strong chance i'd take canoe. theres be other factors- weather, time of day, etc, but isnt like the canoe is just an absolute no under any circumstances

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdoczi View Post
    was it ever? i have my doubts.
    For naw jarzeeins NJ is the epicenter of the world...period.

  14. #54
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    i prefer fording

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdoczi View Post
    i think if i arrived at a river and had my option of walking across a bridge or being paddled across in the canoe theres a very strong chance i'd take canoe. theres be other factors- weather, time of day, etc, but isnt like the canoe is just an absolute no under any circumstances
    I think im pretty typical.
    If there was a line or wait for canoe to return, id walk 100%.

    But if it was 1/2mi farther via bridge than canoe....id probably likely wait for canoe, at least 30 min

    Everything equal...id go with whats fastest, walking. But then ive been in canoes. Maybe it would be novel for people that never have.

    The ATC had to work to get people to take canoe when first implemented. Smear campaign on fording, and call canoe the official route, painting blaze on it. Not everyone embraced it. A few notable old hikers still havent.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 11-01-2018 at 21:28.
    "Inevitably, a long distance hiker must choose between travelling light, and not travelling at all." - Earl V. Shaffer

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