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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    As is my habit, I feel compelled to add that there is no BLANKET regulation in the White Mountains that requires one to camp at least 200’ away from the AT in NON WILDERNESS AREAs.
    Legally, maybe. In practice it's usually impossible to get 200 feet off the trail anyway. At least if you ever want to find it again. You can't even see 20 feet off the trail in most places.

    The only sections of the AT through NH where it is practical to find a place to set up a tent are in low elevation areas, lower then 3000 feet or so. And there isn't much of this. Most of the time your either going steeply up or down hill or above tree line. In the dips between climbs its a bog where all the water collects. Any "flat" area your likely to find is a bed of wet and spongy moss. Then there are all the down tree limbs and rocks.

    That's why there are a large number of developed campsites with tent platforms located in the areas where it's practical to do so. To suggest that people can camp along the AT through the Whites and avoid the AMC sites is just plain irresponsible because it really isn't a practical thing to do, even in the few places where it might be legal to do so.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slo-go'en View Post
    . . . To suggest that people can camp along the AT through the Whites and avoid the AMC sites is just plain irresponsible because it really isn't a practical thing to do, even in the few places where it might be legal to do so.
    I'm afraid we will just have to disagree on this one.

    Yeah, it's much easier to camp in the designated camp sites. And yeah, there are stretches where finding an appropriate place is impossible for some period of time. But broadly impossible or irresponsible, I strongly disagree. There are certainly stretches where using a hammock would make things a lot easier. And there are places where you might hike an hour or two, or drop down a side trail before you find someplace. But, come on, a reasonably experienced outdoors person can still make it through the Whites avoiding the AMC sites and keeping their LNT ethics in tact, especially if one stops by the AMC sites and chats with the caretakers about where decent locations might be.
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  3. #23
    ME => GA 19AT3 rickb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slo-go'en View Post
    Legally, maybe. In practice it's usually impossible to get 200 feet off the trail anyway. At least if you ever want to find it again. You can't even see 20 feet off the trail in most places.
    This speaks to my point about the fact that the 200’ foot “rule” simply does not exist along much of the AT in the Whites.

    But more importantly, there are plenty of places that camping along the AT is a legal and practiical both.

    How about along the Kinsmans? Would you think a fellow hiker to be a scofflaw if they decided to set up camp in the many good places along the ridge north of Moosalauki rather than pressing to the shelter at the Pond?

    How about after Zealand Falls hut if you found a coveted work for stay unavailable, and you didn’t want to walk in the dark to Ethan Pond?

    Or in a scrap of woods a few feet from the trail if you found that Nauman Tent Site was full?

    How about if you saw a few tents on the Old Jackson Road section of the AT approaching Pinkham Notch? Would your blood boil at seeing them, or would you respect their resourcefulness in finding a legal spot in an otherwise difficult area?

    This is not to say there is not a great deal of wisdom in your post — and to your way of thinking. There are many places in the white that camping off trail is not practical.

    If the objective is to keep things simple for those who cannot handle the truth, then your advise has merit.
    Last edited by rickb; 02-21-2018 at 14:11.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by ldsailor View Post
    Thanks for the itinerary run down. I'll be doing the Whites this summer NOBO. I'm curious. What time of the year did you do your hike? I'm trying to figure out what kind of clothes I'll need when I reach the Whites sometime in late July or early August.
    I was there mid-September, but if I went any time in the summer, i'd take the same gear I had, honestly, if only for emergencies. "People have died from exposure even in summer in the Whites", as the sign says. So: lightweight long johns, t shirt, shorts, 2nd pair of socks for sleeping (especially if you get soaked while hiking), rain jacket/pants, lightweight down coat, winter hat, gloves, and a zero degree sleeping bag. I had a 30 degree bag and it was not enough, but that's me and I run cold in general.
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  5. #25
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    For those who are not opposed to stealth camping:

    https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/86526/
    It's all good in the woods.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoogieForth View Post
    . . . So: lightweight long johns, t shirt, shorts, 2nd pair of socks for sleeping (especially if you get soaked while hiking), rain jacket/pants, lightweight down coat, winter hat, gloves, and a zero degree sleeping bag. I had a 30 degree bag and it was not enough, but that's me and I run cold in general.
    And I've camped out up there in all four seasons with a 20 degree bag with issues only on one 10 degree night last month (it was likely lower than 10 where we were) at Kinsman Pond, when all my clothing plus my bag wasn't enough to be comfortable, although it was enough to get okay sleep. Probably a 0 degree bag or my 20 plus the quilt I normally take to supplement it would be wise in the future for mid winter. But hey, one uncomfortable night is not the end of the world, and you gotta push your gear once in a while or you'll never know its limits.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleRock View Post
    For those who are not opposed to stealth camping:

    https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/86526/
    Excellent reference; we used this when we hiked through the Whites for the nights we weren't in the huts.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by colorado_rob View Post
    Excellent reference; we used this when we hiked through the Whites for the nights we weren't in the huts.
    I would say that it is OK at best.

    Some of the spots suck to begin with — I am specifically thinking of the one just north of Liberty Springs Campsite — and more importantly may have been brushed in and taken out of commission (by way of Forest Service signs).

    Also, it fails to specify which sites are perfectly legal — of which many on the list are.

    For those who care about that — either out of respect for the rules or simply to feel more at ease when camping a few feet from the AT — that could be important.

    Still, it speak to the possiblities and would be another resource to have, I think.

  9. #29

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    Notice the date, things change. Some of them are definitely out of date or specifically posted and other more popular legal options are not listed. Some are kind of laughable like the Dry River trail when there are better options nearby.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldsailor View Post
    Thanks for the itinerary run down. I'll be doing the Whites this summer NOBO. I'm curious. What time of the year did you do your hike? I'm trying to figure out what kind of clothes I'll need when I reach the Whites sometime in late July or early August.
    From late June through September what I usually went with insulation and clothing wise on weekends and overnights in the Whites :
    WM Caribou sleeping bag, 35°F rated (kept me warm into the high 20°'s), Neoair pad, various tents and tarps, long lightweight base layer tops and bottoms, hiking shorts and short sleeve shirt, long pants and long sleeve shirt, heavyweight base layer top, Nano Puff, lightweight balaclava, windblock fleece hat, windblock fleece gloves, rain shell with hood and rain pants if there was any chance of rain. A neck gaiter or scarf can be really handy if it's cold and windy (the balaclava worked for this). Eyewear - sunglasses or regular glasses - at minimum something to break the wind off your eyes if you're hiking into it. Make sure any hat you have provides both wind blocking and warmth for your ears. I can't begin to tell you how painful your ears can get in a strong wind even at 50° in summer Some might consider the heavy base layer top overkill, but I have this thing about keeping warm.

  11. #31
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    Thanks for the tips on clothing. I had no idea the conditions could get that cold in July. I'm thinking of having the extra clothes and outerwear sent to me just before the Whites. Can I send them back home when I'm finished with the Whites, or should I keep them for the rest of the trail NOBO?
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  12. #32
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    Default Camping vs the huts

    For all of the debate on camping (i.e. "stealth" sites vs the established camp spots) vs the huts, I'd just like to throw out a little more detail on my opinion. If you are looking for adventure and part of that includes finding a place to camp, then go for it. If you don't mind spending the money, then the huts make the logistics much simpler.

    I'm no spring chick, nor am I'm an old phart (yet), but I thought the Whites were stinking tough. I hiked most of them with a full pack (everything except for Crawford Notch to Pinkham Notch), and then I finished the Whites doing the hut-to-hut thing with a day pack. It was a night and day difference experience-wise for me. I like camping, but setting up on some of those days after getting my arse handed to me was not enjoyable. I mean rock scrambling with a full pack is just flat out hard work. I loved the days I rolled into a hut knowing all I had to do was set up my bunk, and then sit around and relax whilst being fed like a king. Also note that depending on when you hit it, a lot of those established sites fill up quick (e.g. I got the last spot at Liberty Springs when I went through there).

    So anyway, not to sound like daddy warbucks or anything, but the huts were well worth it in my opinion.
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  13. #33

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    If you’re talking about doing Maine in August, personally I’d keep all the same gear. I definitely needed my long johns and rain suit. I’m not sure when I first needed my down coat. I kept a journal and the first note I made of the cold being an issue at night was the 26th, but that was at the Avery campsite on Mt Bigelow and that’s sleeping at 3800 ft so it’s not surprising. I’d rather have it and not need it than the reverse. It took me about 5 weeks (starting Aug 5) to get through Maine but I’m a slow hiker. I think I averaged 9-10/day. The first ‘freak out’ day came on 9/11 going over Mt Success (NH/ME border) in a torrential downpour and temps cold enough for me to put on every thing I had to stay warm and dry enough. Then that night too was around freezing, and coupled with my gear being wet I couldn’t wear enough at night so I didn’t sleep and it was a bit dicey. That’s where my thinking of the 0 bag comes in, since I needed my down coat and hat/gloves for sleeping and couldn’t wear them since they were soaked, so if the bag was better it probably would’ve been ok.

  14. #34

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    I expect few folks would bring a 0 degree bag in August in the whites or maine. A 30 to 40 degree bag is the norm. There are detailed local forecasts at each AMC hut so if the conditions appear to be dangerous the next day, a prudent thru hiker may elect a shorter day with less exposure or a zero. There are pretty reliable forecasts available that look several days out for major weather changes. This can be real issue to consider on the stretch between Liberty Springs, Greenleaf hut and Galehead Hut as well as between Mizpah Hut, Lake of the Crowds and Madison Hut as this is all above treeline near totally exposed hiking. Crappy weather also means no views so why go out and risk death on a nasty day and not get the views that is the reason why folks come up here to hike?Obviously folks with hut reservations have less flexibility but the hut crews and AMC are used to dealing with it. If the weather is really bad many folks will just cancel at the last minute freeing up space in the next hut or worst case is the hikers will head down off the ridge and take a shuttle to either the Highland Center, Pinkham Notch or hotel in Gorham to wait out the weather and then go back up on the ridge when it clears. If AMC was unable to find them a spot where they had to bail they may need to skip a section of the AT and then hike back up to the next hut.

    No matter what your accommodations are, make sure you have totally windproof gear to hike with that covers all your exposed skin that can be ventilated with adequate synthetic of wool underlayers. Mittens or liner gloves with socks and a lightweight balaclava is highly recommended. Down gear is useless in the rain while hiking, it just soaks out and is worse than not wearing it. Long before you hike with down gear in wet conditions you should be headed down to off the ridge line and get some shelter set up before putting on the down. There is coated down called Downtec that is better than raw down but it will also loose much of its effectiveness when in rain. It does dry quicker. The inevitable result of hiking without the right gear is hypothermia and that can sneak up on a hiker, they may be on the hairy edge while hiking but the second they stop, they are not generating enough heat and the symptoms rapidly get worse. Unfortunately the first symptom is loss of clear thinking so most folks dont realize they are on edge until they have gone over the edge.

    Sure folks get in trouble year round in the whites but there are also thousands of folks out every day as it is in Bostons backyard. With common sense, some proper planning and the right gear its great place to be from June to Late September. Outside of that time period the gear list goes up, weather conditions get more extreme and the consequences of bad decisions increase.

  15. #35

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    The original poster was asking about June in the Whites, and even you were talking about snow then, so I think a warmer bag is worth considering (unless they’ll be in the huts), especially for someone who knows they get cold easy. It’s worth mentioning too that one of the deaths on Mt Washington was in June from falling ice. On my trip through in Sept. there was no snow or ice, but it was frigging cold, so it’s possible June could be even worse than I had it. I also had more than one bad night of cold and that continued as I went south and then north on the Long Trail. I actually did get hypothermic eventually too, which ended my hike early, and that was in 50 degree dry weather in the first week of Oct. I’m still not sure what happened there, but part of it may have been from losing so much weight and not getting enough calories in general. If I did the same trip again there’s no way I’d take a 30. Most of August was fine, until it wasn’t! I almost bought a silk sleeping bag liner in Gorham and I wish I had. Maybe that’s all I need, or a 20 and maybe a warmer pad too. That’s just me, I guess in the minority, but that’s why I think it’s worth mentioning since it’s not the typical experience, so people can decide for themselves.

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoogieForth View Post
    If you’re talking about doing Maine in August, personally I’d keep all the same gear. I definitely needed my long johns and rain suit. I’m not sure when I first needed my down coat. I kept a journal and the first note I made of the cold being an issue at night was the 26th, but that was at the Avery campsite on Mt Bigelow and that’s sleeping at 3800 ft so it’s not surprising. I’d rather have it and not need it than the reverse. It took me about 5 weeks (starting Aug 5) to get through Maine but I’m a slow hiker. I think I averaged 9-10/day. The first ‘freak out’ day came on 9/11 going over Mt Success (NH/ME border) in a torrential downpour and temps cold enough for me to put on every thing I had to stay warm and dry enough. Then that night too was around freezing, and coupled with my gear being wet I couldn’t wear enough at night so I didn’t sleep and it was a bit dicey. That’s where my thinking of the 0 bag comes in, since I needed my down coat and hat/gloves for sleeping and couldn’t wear them since they were soaked, so if the bag was better it probably would’ve been ok.
    I had the exact same experience on Mt Success, only on July 6th last year. Can get dicey anytime in Maine.


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