Patagonia Micro Puff

[Just Bill]

Several jacket/vest manufacturers are experimenting with unusual compartment shapes that hold insulation. For example, this occurs on the MB Plasma, which we've talked about in PMs, and the Pat Micro Puff. Its my assumption they are desiging the seams that way to reduce cold spots and stitching which adds to reducing wt. When ive seen both back lit in stores they both show signs of some settling insulation. My guess is the Micro Puff might benefit from some gentle refluffing similar to down.

I see the Nano Puff as you do a tougher more durable more featured layer still a light or possibly UL piece though.

The Micro Puff is a solid UL really SUL minimalist layer.

After PatagonIA and REI pinged me with the wt difference between the Nano Puff and Micro Puff I was surprised how much less wt in XL the micro puff is. It comes at some cost though as it's really a SUL layer. I want to note what happens over the longer term using the micro puff for backpacking.

I got a Montbell UL down shell... partially I think from our talks previously and others high praise for the brand like Mags, Swami and others.
Personally, I wasn't terribly impressed. Montbell and GoLite make decent products, but not at the high level of Patagonia... but to be fair that's because I'm a picky ass son of a bitch snob.
The jacket I have looks like what is now called the superior (a box quilted, rather than horizontal tube) and the jacket always felt underfilled in that style of quilting. Seemed extra sensitive to moisture.

Had similiar issues with a GoLite vest I got. Being retina lazer beam orange it was see through even without a back light. Again... seemed a hair underfilled and was only neat in that it was visibly easy to watch the down while using it.

I'm still not sold on 1000FP down either, but I do concede and agree there is some real innovation and thought in that piece.

If comparing the two:
"Based on our highly successful EX Light Down Jacket, with the Plasma we take it to the next level! Straight forward core insulation,this piece utilizes only the finest 1000 fill power goose down and gossamer 7-denier nylon. This item is cut trim to work more effectively with outer layers."

• "DUE TO THE USE OF ULTRA LIGHT FABRICS, THESE GARMENTS MAY REQUIRE SPECIAL CARE"

So Montbell, who is more geared toward users like us overall, is cleanly calling out the use we discussed. Limited use as an outer shell, ideal use as an intermediate insulation piece. Be careful!

So the Micropuff doesn't really offer anything different in that regard but....

There are several folks overseas not to impressed with us 'yanks' and our 900+ FP downs. As discussed- at some point when you need to air fluff, rest, condition for 24 hours and lab test... you may be developing an unrealistic spec. While Big Cranky rightly points out that many casual users of a medium fill jacket may not notice loss in performance on a practical level... when you are pushing to the absolute minimum fill at the absolute limits of fill power... even a minor loss due to real life is quite real. When you're dressing yourself and judging your gear by margins of error 5 degrees or less... then this issue is much more real life.

Setting my general skepticism about the plasma aside:

Let's just talk real world=
Consider the possibility of a shell failure of some type. Yes, you could lose a tuft or two more in Plumafill than Primaloft Gold (my photos above)... this isn't thermoball in another form. So it's not a loose fill prone to digestive upset all over the trail. That alone is a point in favor of the micropuff IMO.

Active use is the other. Will Plumafill deliver the same warm when wet performance as the NanoPuff? Doubt it.
But will it handle body vapor, environmental humidity and multi-day conditions better than 1000FP down- I don't see how it couldn't. It won't slump on day three because dampness crept in.
Will it shift less from body movement- likely a point in favor there too.

So call the shells equal, it's basically off label pertex in the MB jacket- but give the point to the synthetic for reducing the issues that might arise as a result.
I don't see how you could call the fills equal, in fact the reason I make PLG quilts in the first place is that in these micro thin layers of one cluster thick down I don't think down is a good product for our use. More and more I am of the mind down should be confined to light or medium weight applications in clothing. In lofts of 3/4" or even 1" the issues arising in the real world make it mildly impractical for all but western use.

Montbell is extra minimal- literally an insulation layer with no pockets.
Micro puff has minimal creature comforts, but you could stuff your hands in the pockets at least.

So with this you invert the argument... You pay a few ounce ding for the assurances and features of the micro puff vs the absolute lightness of the plasma.

If the question is- what is too far?- the answer for me is the plasma.
I think you're talking too much spec sheet or lab result magic vs real world use to even consider the plasma. And the risks of the shell result in direct issues with the fill.


If you are asking Nano Puff or Micro... you got my answer- both.

Nano Puff for early shoulder season conditions... where it's cool enough your windshell isn't cutting it... but not quite the point where you really need a WPB shell. 30-50* roughly.
You might want to hike wearing this thing, you might wear it under your pack. You might just want that single do all piece. Again if you could only have one... probably the Nano Puff.

Micro... fits a system. If you already have your windshell in fair weather, or your WPB in cooler temps... what's the issue? Why do you need the micro to be a jacket? If you're just at camp or pulling it out and tossing it on as a stop piece... it's tough enough for that. If you're hiking along and need more than your windshirt... wear it backwards over your pack as you cross that stretch above treeline. Will this stuff eventually wither under a pack strap- for sure. I don't see how it couldn't long term... then again windshells hold up well enough.

So for me... this would replace my Cap 2 and a vest. Or a cap2 and cap 4. Or whatever that layer is you snatch out of the closet when the temps have moved beyond baselayer and windshell. This looks like a do it all piece for that reason. If it's a bit too warm- it's full zip. So yar... I may appreciate having a few 'tops' to micro manage my warmth... but fair trade to swap that with this jacket.

So overall....
Summer- I could picture the micro as my catch all insulation/stop piece/safety piece in a SUL system rather than tossing in a cap 4 or other baselayer top.

Dryier early Shoulders (fall)- I could picture leaving the micro at home, maybe the windshell too and just taking the Nano-Puff.

Wetter late shouldrs (spring)- I could also picture swapping out my primary layer for a Cap 2 or Cap 4 and using the micro for insulation under my WPB shell. The nano isn't water resistant enough to act as a primary shell, though it does do well enough hiking in a light mist... I'd prefer to keep it in my pack and wear my baselayer and WPB shell while moving- not hike in the Nano- Puff. So why carry the Nano vs the micro?

Winter- Nano Puff stays home and the micro and perhaps the Nano-Air become my primary insulation pieces. The micro replaces my cap 4 or 100 wt fleece in my layering system. It might be worn a bit by wearing under a pack strap... but me personally I don't do any big miles in deep winter anyway. I'm doing a few mile out and back for a night or two.

A final thought too...
Let's just say that the Micro sucks. And that the Plasma sucks.
Let's say it takes two seasons to find that out.

To the best of my knowledge you are SOL with Montbell.
Patagonia will replace your gear if that Plumafill happens to crush out under your straps over time or you wear a hole right through that shell.
So ultimately... the micro is a pretty low risk proposition to me.
I wouldn't bet any big trip on new gear... but if in a year of casual trips the micro proves out... it will get used.
If not... well I get a store credit for a brand who I really like. That's part of what the big money goes to, might as well use it if needed.

The other part of where the big money goes to... is Patagonia's big mouth and industry leadership on many issues I care about.
It's the last on the list- but it makes me start looking at them first.
So far, I have yet to be let down by a single educated purchase I have made at Patagonia.
I will always examine the products they make objectively... But it's rare I cannot find something to meet my needs in their line.
As a result- I happily spend my money there when ever it makes sense.
When it don't, I buy what works. Tried Patagonia socks, but they ain't darn tough. The undies ain't Ex officio, but they are catching up.

Others participate in 1% for the planet, bluesign, reasearch and design, innovations, or other initiatives.
But it's generally Patagonia's lead and pushing that make it happen.

I ain't much of a hippy dippy crunchy granola emotional bull**** marketing BS guy. Hard numbers, specs, results... lotta folks have marketing... not many have the real world track record they have doing actual things with the money I spend there on things I care about. I hope the urban adventurer keeps dumping every overpriced cent they can find their way. But us dirtbags can rest assured that even when you buy at 50% off you're still buying right.

[Just Bill]

Has anyone looked at this jacket from EMS? https://www.ems.com/ems-men%E2%80%99...4.html#start=1
Sort of a clone of the nano puff but has 80g of PrimaLoft Gold. I just got one at half price yesterday but have not had a chance to try it out. Looks like decent quality.

Few reviews in-
This is a nice Primaloft jacket. It is warm, the fit has shape, the stitching pattern is nice, and the colors are rich. The product description says 80 grams of Primaloft Gold fill. The product tag on the garment indicates 60 grams of fill. I was not successful in clarifying which source was correct through EMS. I am disappointed on this point, but like all other features about this jacket and am keeping mine

Struck me as a typo... PLG is sold in 60,100,120 gram per sq meter.

I'd rather give $100 to patagonia for a past season Nano-Puff.
http://www.patagonia.com/product/men...&start=1&sz=36

Colors, sizes, and quantities get limited- but Patagonia typically does a
End of season UP TO 50% off sale... this cleans out most stuff- so if you really want something you buy it then... most popular stuff is only 30% off if available.

A few months later they do a TRUE 50% off sale on whatever is left.

They typically do this in FEB/April for winter gear. And again in fall around August to close out summer gear.

[Just Bill]

Most interesting thread of the day good gawd

The brave little compass thread was better.

[Dogwood]

I enjoy the way you talk. Typical Chicago extreme gear wonk. Or, maybe youre just trying to regain some sanity from changing diapers and chasing around the kiddos.

[Dogwood]

JB, I need a secretary, steno, or personal assistant to condense your posts and a tech team of advisors to verify your data.

[rocketsocks]

The brave little compass thread was better.

true! But i put that one in a hole different catagory.

[Just Bill]

JB, I need a secretary, steno, or personal assistant to condense your posts and a tech team of advisors to verify your data.

That's the beauty of this format... read at your own pace.
And the beauty of doing it openly... anyone is feel free to chime in and correct if needed and we all learn.

I enjoy the way you talk. Typical Chicago extreme gear wonk. Or, maybe youre just trying to regain some sanity from changing diapers and chasing around the kiddos.

More work related than anything else... I've got 6 multi story buildings going.
There are dozens of architects who can't read or draw prints.
Several Engineers who don't understand construction.
And customers who want their stuff.

Thankfully I didn't go to college and retained most of my logic capabilities and I can resolve these issues for all the other qualified people who get paid to do jobs they can't perform.

You might find it funny that one engineer, architect and general contractor asked me (the carpenter) to figure how much the concrete planters they want to stick in the roof top garden will weigh. If I was concerned about the weight imposed on the structure they wanted to know if I could recommend a planting medium and species of tree that might reduce the load.
PS- they won't tell me the size of the planter or dimensions of it... because dimensions aren't really their thing.
PPS- Yes, there is a landscape architect on the job.

Most importantly and actually stressful... 70 plus folks in our shop who only work if the three of us in my department turn all this stuff into giant lego sets for them to build.

I'd love to chase my kiddos... though they are old enough now they no longer crap their pants so that's handy.

Chatting gear is a nice break, specially if it helps somebody get out even if I don't get a chance anytime soon.

Got two of my customers who just got some bridge hammocks who needed some help- definitely the highlight of my day to build things that make people happy.
One day....

[Dogwood]

LoL This is WB entertainment value at its very best.
Got me rollin' talking about the benefits of not attending college and the brain fog lack of initiative of architects and engineers who push responsibility for their designs onto the carpenters.

[Dogwood]

That's a great rant. Feelin' better now?

[Just Bill]

That's a great rant. Feelin' better now?

LOL, a rant a day keeps the heart doctor away. See why insulation is easy, lol.

The architect forwarded an email chain that the concrete planters weigh 200lbs. With no dimensions they still asked me to calc the load of the planter; assuming I know saturated soil weight and weight of the unidentified species of tree and what it's weight will be when mature of course.

I read the email chain- from the landscape architect no less- which indicated they'd finally got around to calculating the live planter box the architect recently added to the rooftop terrace of a seven story building at approximately 23,000 pounds +/- half a ton. They hadn't finished running the numbers on the proposed water element quite yet though and hoped to get to it after they return from a weeklong conference.
That is a load high enough to potentially cause the foundation of the building to fail, even if I design my walls to support it- four levels of which are already standing.
Thankfully a high school grad was on hand to prevent building collapse.


I pulled the plug on the job and issued a stop work order.


Now I feel better.



So does Socks... that's enough drift to move this thread under the section for Japanese motor racing.


On a related note... the building is 2 blocks from the Patagonia store in Chicago... so clearly on topic.

[Dogwood]

OMG. You could have gotten me to do the calculations simply by saying there was a ZPacks cuben fiber stuff sack in it for me.

[Just Bill]

OMG. You could have gotten me to do the calculations simply by saying there was a ZPacks cuben fiber stuff sack in it for me.

That far exceeds the amount I was paid to run those numbers.

Sides, you know the maintenance guy will kill a tree growing seven stories up on a roof top in the heart of Chicago in exactly one season and they will backcharge you to replace it because you put the wrong species in your load calculation. So you're better off springing for the $20 stuff sack yerself.

[Dogwood]

Your current rant reminded me of Ralph May's Dora the Explorer anti Mexican bit. That's not in anyway suggesting its OK to have an anti Mexican ethnicity racist prejudice.

[Just Bill]

I love green roofs, but even the city engineers don't seem to understand how adding large gardens to a roof might require some structural support.
Nothing like stacking 6 or 7 full size pickup trucks in a vertical pile on a roof top. Might as well try adding a coy pond in the bed of a few of them for fun while you're at it.
I'm sure they figured the puck and paver system would distribute the load... those pucks are like schedule 80 PVC. And that's the good stuff.

Even your average side job landscaper understands you have to put in a base for a 3' plastic tub pond in solid soil... but they probably took shop class in high school too.

[Just Bill]

Good food, good to work with, good people.

Amigos are my amigos.

[Dogwood]

Pleese, don't tell me the maintenance guy is choosing the tree variety, planting, or maintenance approach to the roof top garden. What, do you want me to jump on the rant bandwagon in loudmouthed opionated NJ Landscape Architect fashion? Isn't your Uncle involved? He would likely know better than the maintenance guy!

[Just Bill]

Pleese, don't tell me the maintenance guy is choosing the tree variety, planting, or maintenance approach to the roof top garden. What, do you want me to jump on the rant bandwagon in loudmouthed opionated NJ Landscape Architect fashion? Isn't your Uncle involved? He would likely know better than the maintenance guy!

Thus far you seem to be the most qualified landscaper on the job, lol.

My uncle doesn't do this stuff, he stays on the ground where he can helicopter trees into place or build pools for R-Kelly's sharks.
He didn't finish high school though, too busy cutting lawns.

[Dogwood]

I love green roofs, but even the city engineers don't seem to understand how adding large gardens to a roof might require some structural support.
Nothing like stacking 6 or 7 full size pickup trucks in a vertical pile on a roof top. Might as well try adding a coy pond in the bed of a few of them for fun while you're at it.
I'm sure they figured the puck and paver system would distribute the load... those pucks are like schedule 80 PVC. And that's the good stuff.

Even your average side job landscaper understands you have to put in a base for a 3' plastic tub pond in solid soil... but they probably took shop class in high school too.

Have you been to City Hall's rooftop garden? City engineers were involved.

[Dogwood]

Even your average side job landscaper understands you have to put in a base for a 3' plastic tub pond in solid soil... but they probably took shop class in high school too.

You may very well be giving mon and pops too much credit.

[Just Bill]

Have you been to City Hall's rooftop garden? City engineers were involved.

That was a city project, taxpayer funded, no expense spared.

The city woulda pulled the plug on this job to be fair, but the AOR didn't draw in the rooftop garden until after permit. He just a had a plastic tray system in.

No, haven't been to the city hall garden- access is pretty limited and I think it has been permanently off limits for some time. I did get to see it when they were building it but didn't get a chance to see it finished.
I stay out of the city mainly...

But they used mixed media beds with light soils like the tray systems do and put some thought into it. Also did extensive rework on the building to get it done.

This one is literally a 4' deep box filled with potting soil and front yard style landscaping.

Even your average side job landscaper understands you have to put in a base for a 3' plastic tub pond in solid soil... but they probably took shop class in high school too.

You may very well be giving mon and pops too much credit.

Not around here... bare minimum they'll put in a few inches of sand base over fabric. Most will put a few blocks in at the perimeter and crushed limestone or paver base.
We do have mostly highly qualified amigos... very few blancos. You gotta watch out fer them.

But now I'm in Indiana... all the rules are out the window and codes is fer garage door opener keypads not fer building... so you are likely right.

Anywho... starting to get about that point that if'n I was Alligator I'd wanna slap the crap outta the two of us. Feel free to have the last word but I better stop doing the same, lol.