Alcohol Stove Discussion (technical info heavy post)

[hipbone]

A stainless steel Esbit Tray weighs only one gram:

http://www.woodgaz-stove.com/brian-green-esbit-tray.php

I'm going to play with esbit in the next few days with an old pot to see if I mind the gum up. I'm going to try the tabs suggested in this thread. The only thing is it'll only save me 6 grams and I'm so efficient with alcohol stoves...I have them pretty dialed in. Esbit will be fun to play with. Also my hiking partner and I share a stove so time is wee bit of an issue... anything under 10 minutes for both of our meals are good for us

[hipbone]

I made a video of one of the stoves I am sending out
I used :
about .6 to .7 ml of denatured alcohol (eye-balled it).
2 cups of water straight from the cold tap.
Toaks 550 titanium pot with no handles.
Ambient air temperature was 64 degrees (watch the thermometer go up as the stove heats the water hehe).

Bloom time was 40 seconds
talking time was 4 minutes 30 seconds (turn the sound up really loud)
Full rolling boil was 6 minutes 35 seconds
Flame out was 8 minutes 54 seconds

It's an uncut, 1 take, 10 minute video of water boiling...now that's good entertainment

Boil Video

[cmoulder]

about .6 to .7 ml of denatured alcohol

Looked like more than that, lol!

(OK, I know you meant oz )

Even so, it would be more informative to actually measure the fuel in one of those little graduated cups, or to weigh it before/after with a good scale accurate to at least 0.1g, and to take water temp. Also have to be careful with units (fluid volume vs weight) and conversions, keeping in mind that the specific gravity of DA is 0.798

Alcohol stoves are nice in gentle weather. For very cold weather and when melting snow for water, IMO alcohol just isn't the tool for the job. I know some have done it, but that still doesn't mean it's the best choice.

[hipbone]

Looked like more than that, lol!

(OK, I know you meant oz )

Even so, it would be more informative to actually measure the fuel in one of those little graduated cups, or to weigh it before/after with a good scale accurate to at least 0.1g, and to take water temp. Also have to be careful with units (fluid volume vs weight) and conversions, keeping in mind that the specific gravity of DA is 0.798

Alcohol stoves are nice in gentle weather. For very cold weather and when melting snow for water, IMO alcohol just isn't the tool for the job. I know some have done it, but that still doesn't mean it's the best choice.

Sorry for the typo, .6 to .7 oz...not ml. I made the same typo above. Also, the way I calculate fuel usage is in the thread above and does take the weight of ethanol into account.

Yeah MtnGoat actually had a 30 ml measuring cup that she wanted to use, but I wanted to fill the stove like we do in the woods (I knew with her pouring I'd get a 6 minute boil and a 9 minute flame out so she was pretty dead on). Measure lines are on the fuel bottle so she was really close (she did the measuring in the video). I have a scale that goes to the .01 grams but I'm pretty sure the pour she did was close...she's been pouring alcohol in an alcohol stove for 18 years :-):-)

I have about 2 years of boil times written down for this particular stove model if you want to check it out, but I'd have to put it into a spreadsheet since it's all written in a notebook and that seems like too much work

Lots of people do comment that in certain conditions alcohol stoves aren't the best choice but so far it's been efficient in every condition I've been in. I've used one on the Appalachian trail, the Colorado trail, the Long trail, and one was used on a CDT thru hike in 2017 (congrats to her on finishing her triple crown) and one to Kennedy Meadows on the PCT in 2017 (he got hurt in the Sierra's).

It takes some practice to make alcohol stoves work and become efficient, but once you get it down they really do work in almost all conditions. Shug's last video I saw him boiling water for coffee on the snow in -27 degree weather...I was pretty surprised by that

I will say that we are using a canister stove on the JMT but it's because of open flame restrictions. I am really not tied to any particular stove so if I find something lighter, more efficient, and just as timely I'll use that instead.

I don't want to come across as being confrontational or argumentative in any way, I just have so much experience with this stove that I'm convinced it's a good piece of gear. I am sending 2 more stoves out today or Monday so maybe others will have some input later.

[hipbone]

Looked like more than that, lol!

(OK, I know you meant oz )

Even so, it would be more informative to actually measure the fuel in one of those little graduated cups, or to weigh it before/after with a good scale accurate to at least 0.1g, and to take water temp. Also have to be careful with units (fluid volume vs weight) and conversions, keeping in mind that the specific gravity of DA is 0.798

Alcohol stoves are nice in gentle weather. For very cold weather and when melting snow for water, IMO alcohol just isn't the tool for the job. I know some have done it, but that still doesn't mean it's the best choice.

also you are absolutely right about melting snow with an alcohol stove, but you'd be more of an expert on snow camping since I don't camp in the white stuff on purpose...I'm definitely a 3 season + shoulder season hiker

[cmoulder]

No worries, use what you will and whatever you're willing to carry.

I just cannot get past the energy density numbers. DA is about 10-11k btu/lb and butane is about 20-21k.

Personally, I use alcohol most of the time and Esbit when I want to go really light and low volume. Very cold, and especially with snow, I'll go canister every time.

[zelph]

I am really serious about cutting grams out of my pack. I find that a light pack helps me prolong my hiking career by saving my knees and my joints (I am at the age where I will start having problems with my body if I do not take care of it). We are relatively small people so what a normal weight person carries is multiplied greatly when we have to carry it. Also, my hiking partner has had 2 reconstructive knee surgeries and osteoarthritis so cutting weight is CRITICAL to us. We are long distance hikers....

If you can save us weight by suggesting a lighter cooking set up please share. If you can show me the point at which I will save weight by taking a canister stove I will certainly take advice. I am not dedicated to any cook set up, I only need the lightest. I have considered going stoveless also, but meal preparation before the hike is a real enjoyment to us. MtnGoat is a really good cook and we dehydrate all of our meals before we go out...not having a hot home cooked meal every day would take a lot out of our hike. I have also looked into wood stoves but I don't think I would enjoy collecting tinder and sooting up my pot.

thanks in advance for your suggestions!

If you really want the lightest, switch to esbit. Make your pot support to the correct height to prevent soot deposit on bottom of pot. Use the windscreen that you currently use.

That's the way to reduce weight for sure if this thread was your real intent.

If you still want to use alcohol, then I can sell you a Starlyte stove that has integrated stainless steel pot support. It has a "no-spill" feature that is worth it's weight in gold ;-) I'll be making more of the stoves when I return home in the spring if you can wait that long ;-) Alcohol stoves work well in cold weather, just as you have seen Shug use the famous Fancee Feest stove ;-) in his recent video. I can post some of his video for you. The Fancee Feest also has an integrated pot support made of stainless steel. One piece stoves are a blessing as you can imagine. Shaving off some grams is not everything in life. Convenience of a one piece stove is worth a lot. A few grams are not going to be that hard on your/our aging knees ;-)

I can post my Toaks Light Kit specifications if you'd like. I'll have more of those in the spring. They are the ultimate in lightweight Titanium kits.

[JoeVogel]

I have to say that before reading this thread I was not a big supporter of alcohol stoves. I have friends that purchased expensive commercially produced alcoholic stoves and have struggled to make them work really well. With the bottle of fuel they weigh about as much as my BRS and canister. I didn't think that a homemade one would hold up well on long hikes so I never thought it was a viable option.

After this thread I think I am converted to alcoholic stoves. That weight savings that you have laid out hipbone is very appealing. I would love to experiment with making my own.

Would you be willing to share the specific design for the stove that you use? I'm sure with all your experience you have done a lot of troubleshooting to figure out the most efficient construction and weight savings. I am also curious, and i'm sure you have figured out, if the weight savings of using a stove that doesn't require a separate pot support is worth a cut in efficiency?

Thanks so much for creating this thread and I appreciate your detail.

[hipbone]

If you really want the lightest, switch to esbit. Make your pot support to the correct height to prevent soot deposit on bottom of pot. Use the windscreen that you currently use.

That's the way to reduce weight for sure if this thread was your real intent.

If you still want to use alcohol, then I can sell you a Starlyte stove that has integrated stainless steel pot support. It has a "no-spill" feature that is worth it's weight in gold ;-) I'll be making more of the stoves when I return home in the spring if you can wait that long ;-) Alcohol stoves work well in cold weather, just as you have seen Shug use the famous Fancee Feest stove ;-) in his recent video. I can post some of his video for you. The Fancee Feest also has an integrated pot support made of stainless steel. One piece stoves are a blessing as you can imagine. Shaving off some grams is not everything in life. Convenience of a one piece stove is worth a lot. A few grams are not going to be that hard on your/our aging knees ;-)

I can post my Toaks Light Kit specifications if you'd like. I'll have more of those in the spring. They are the ultimate in lightweight Titanium kits.

Oh yeah your stoves are really nice...pretty much the gold standard and I refer to your site a lot when people ask me where to get alcohol stoves

I do enjoy making them myself, I like to tinker and it keeps me somewhat busy and occupied...which is why I have like 50 sitting around right now.

I am also looking into esbit soon, that seems like a good step in reducing weight, I might also go stoveless for a few trips in the summer which will REALLY cut my cooking gear weight.

I have been pretty opposed to twig stoves in the past because of sooting my pot up, but I may look into those also. If anybody has weights and boil times on twig stoves I'm listening

Referring to one piece stove/pot stand, I do prefer a separate pot stand, I feel that it gives me a little play room when checking my boil or stirring my meal. Since the stove isn't connected to the pot, I do not jostle the stove around when playing with my cook pot. I differ from most people on this...as it seems most people prefer fancee feast or some other 1 piece stove.

And yep dead on about a few grams not being hard on me, that's why I haven't gone to any other method of cooking so far (esbit, twig), I like the efficiency and clean burns of ethanol and I have this stove so dialed in that I feel like I haven't found anything light enough to pull away from its efficiency and ease of use. Efficiency, safety, and ease of use always factor into every piece of gear I take. There are a million ways to hike

Apologies also, I might should have posted this in the ultralight forum...it may have been a better fit for the topic.

[zelph]

This is the best way to go for stability, stirring your meal, efficiency, safety and ease of use. It's a pot stand, windscreen all in one. The cone spreads the base support to maximum stability, doesn't get any better than this. I'll be making the kits come spring:



I really like making stoves also and always have a few hundred laying around. Keeps me out of trouble. Makes winter months more enjoyable.

My goto fuel is wood/twigs. I love the campfire smell on my clothes It only takes 2 ounces of wood/twigs to boil 2 cups of water. Choose the right dry hardwood twigs and there is very little soot deposit. Learn the art of wood burning and you'll enjoy the outdoor adventures a lot more. My videos on wood burning are too numerous to list here and there are only a handful of hikers that prefer wood

[hipbone]

I have worked out lots of details on this stove. What would be more helpful, a diagram or a how-to video? I've had several people ask me to make a how-to video on these but I'm not crazy about talking into a camera. I could make a diagram with details but it would leave out a lot on how to make the finish of the stove really nice (details on how to get it to fit together, how I fold the pieces, helpful hints etc). Maybe I'll try to put something together soon.

Also, there are tons of stove designs that are just as efficient as mine and have been used tons of times by other people. I'm sure any of Zelph's stoves are as efficient if not more efficient and probably can weigh less. A Fancee Feast stove has it's own pot stand and I just weighed mine...24 grams, only about 9 grams more than my stove (stove+pot stand) and they are easy to make.

Things I like about my stove (MY being a loose term as it really is a combination of a lot of info I got from the web along with some of my own tweaks):

-I like having a separate pot stand, it gives me wiggle room to move my pot around while not jostling the alcohol stove. Zelph also pointed out that a Caldera cone offers excellent stability, and a few people on this thread have commented that it's what they use and they love it...so that's another really good choice.

-They are STRONG. The way i put them together makes them super durable. All of the pieces fit perfectly together, so the inner all, the outer wall, and the sides of the can butt up against each other and it makes the stove REALLY durable. I have attached a video of me standing on one. I have done this test with the same alcohol stove dozens of times and it still will not collapse. I just made this particular video right after I read your post.

Standing on my alcohol stove

-There is no minimum amount of alcohol that you need to make my stove bloom. We do not boil water and add it to a meal; instead we put water in a home-made dehydrated meal, let it sit for 5 minutes, then heat my meal until the water is just starting to boil. I then add my pot to a pot cozy and let it continue to cook. That whole process takes about .5 oz of fuel (not .5 ml...thanks cmoulder!). I found that with only .5 oz in a fancee feast stove I had a hard time lighting it. .5 oz wasn't enough to wick up to the rim of the can and there wasn't enough fuel left in the reservoir to light either (I'm sure I could have overcome this but I just switched back to the stoves I make because they're a little lighter anyway).

-They are reliable and predictable. I know exactly how long one my stoves will burn and will do so consistently every time (This is probably a moot point because I'm sure any stove you choose will be just as reliable and predictable if you use them as much as I use mine). There are no moving parts with an alcohol stove so there is nothing to break.

There are so many nice stoves out there, the one I use is simply the best for my situation so far

[hipbone]

I have to say that before reading this thread I was not a big supporter of alcohol stoves. I have friends that purchased expensive commercially produced alcoholic stoves and have struggled to make them work really well. With the bottle of fuel they weigh about as much as my BRS and canister. I didn't think that a homemade one would hold up well on long hikes so I never thought it was a viable option.

After this thread I think I am converted to alcoholic stoves. That weight savings that you have laid out hipbone is very appealing. I would love to experiment with making my own.

Would you be willing to share the specific design for the stove that you use? I'm sure with all your experience you have done a lot of troubleshooting to figure out the most efficient construction and weight savings. I am also curious, and i'm sure you have figured out, if the weight savings of using a stove that doesn't require a separate pot support is worth a cut in efficiency?

Thanks so much for creating this thread and I appreciate your detail.

Iforgot to quote you in my post above, but it was directed towards your questions...

[zelph]

Aw come on Hipbone, you did a video of stepping on a stove, now do a visual video of how to make one of your stoves or do just photos showing the different steps. We don't need to hear your voice. Start a thread in the DIY forum. You can do it, don't be shy heh heh :-)

I can tell by your posts you are not going to stray away from your stove and go lighter as has been suggested. You've convinced yourself there is no better stove than yours and a few grams ain't gonna change you over to a lighter one.

[D2maine]

*snip*


My goto fuel is wood/twigs. I love the campfire smell on my clothes It only takes 2 ounces of wood/twigs to boil 2 cups of water. Choose the right dry hardwood twigs and there is very little soot deposit. Learn the art of wood burning and you'll enjoy the outdoor adventures a lot more. My videos on wood burning are too numerous to list here and there are only a handful of hikers that prefer wood

convince me - i have wanted to play with a wood stove but most of them are either way pricy or bulky or both - what is the setup you prefer?

[hipbone]

Aw come on Hipbone, you did a video of stepping on a stove, now do a visual video of how to make one of your stoves or do just photos showing the different steps. We don't need to hear your voice. Start a thread in the DIY forum. You can do it, don't be shy heh heh :-)

I can tell by your posts you are not going to stray away from your stove and go lighter as has been suggested. You've convinced yourself there is no better stove than yours and a few grams ain't gonna change you over to a lighter one.

I don't know, your "art of fire" post seemed pretty convincing. MtnGoat and I talked about doing a super ultralight trip where we relied on skill more than equipment. The ability to build small fires for cooking would be great on a trip like that and in general is a really good skill to be comfortable with while in the woods. Wood fires would free you a wee bit more from fuel capacity. And...definitely taking esbit on my next hiking trip. I'm interested to see how that would work for both of us. I'm going to buy a cheap aluminum pot until I can figure out how to keep them from gumming up the bottom of my pot.

Also, it is really intimidating to me to make a how-to video and put myself out there, people can be so damn harsh on the internet. I do have 1 how-to video up on my youtube channel (it shows you how to make the pot cozy in the boil video above) but it was REALLY hard for me to make that video. I'll post the link of my pot cozy how-to video so you guys can give me a hard time about it

Pot Cozy Video

Also...Thanks Zelph for your input, your stoves are great and I value your input. Thanks to everyone for your input actually, this is a great informational thread

[zelph]

convince me - i have wanted to play with a wood stove but most of them are either way pricy or bulky or both - what is the setup you prefer?

This is my preferred set-up, a DIY made with a 1 quart paint can, a quote from my website:

You can see how big the twigs are and see how I stacked the tinder on top spread around the entire top to be sure I got an even lighting of the entire surface.

[zelph]

convince me - i have wanted to play with a wood stove but most of them are either way pricy or bulky or both - what is the setup you prefer?

I recommend the BushcookerLT1 the one in the middle.

[TexasBob]

.....Also, it is really intimidating to me to make a how-to video and put myself out there, people can be so damn harsh on the internet. I do have 1 how-to video up on my youtube channel (it shows you how to make the pot cozy in the boil video above) but it was REALLY hard for me to make that video. I'll post the link of my pot cozy how-to video so you guys can give me a hard time about it .........Pot Cozy Video.......

Good video. When you post a youtube video just block people from leaving comments. Making alcohol stoves is like smoking cigarettes, once you start it is hard to quit and it becomes a lifelong addiction.

[AllDownhillFromHere]

My only experience with wood stoves is in the Maine woods where everything is damp. Someone fired one up and everyone's clothes stank of woodsmoke for days.

[khysanth]

This is the best way to go for stability, stirring your meal, efficiency, safety and ease of use. It's a pot stand, windscreen all in one. The cone spreads the base support to maximum stability, doesn't get any better than this. I'll be making the kits come spring:

I'd kill for a sidewinder ti-tri for my Toaks 750ml w/ handles