Deep winter bag

[HerdBull]

I know we all like to save weight and space but relying on a bag to do all of this in these conditions is just not the best choice. A screw up here could cost you your life or at the minimum frost bite. Having a tent to keep the wind off of you is a plus when changing clothes, preparing food or just to get out the wind.

[Tipi Walter]

Also Does anyone have any experience with these expedition bags that are shelled with pertex or gorewind stop. Do some cut wind better then others? Do they not cut the wind at all?


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I learned a difficult lesson a long time ago---Don't bedroll camp using a down bag as your only protection at 20F in a high wind. The cold wind cuts right through it. This is why God created bivy bags---to block the wind. And on the 7th day He made tents---even better. I stopped carrying a bivy sack years ago---too constrictive, dead weight, too many zippers when combined with my bag etc etc. But I do carry a tent Praise Odin otherwise my fancy overkill WM bag wouldn't be worth crap as a stand alone winter survival tool.

I do have a winter down parka I take on all my winter trips and its shell is eVent (a better version of goretex) and it blocks wind fairly well. I've never had a quality down bag with a goretex or pertex shell but if I ever upgrade my Feathered Friends parka they now use a beefy version of Pertex.

I wouldn't buy a down bag with any kind of goretex whatever shell---the WM MicroFiber is awesome and breathes tremendously ergo dries out/airs out sufficiently.

[Leo L.]

When I went back into more serious hiking about 12yrs ago, I started with buying a very good down bag. Did a test run with an Exped model that had a Goretex Shell.
I think it somewhat worked, but it was heavy and bulky, and quite pricy.
I swapped it to another Exped model, same down filling, one size smaller (to fit me better), no Goretex Shell.
Since then I've used this Exped bag mostly for cowboy camping in harsh conditions, desert, winter, high winds, cold below freezing.
It has its limits somewhere around -10°C.
So far I've never had the impression that the shell would let too much wind through, its highly siliconized, water repellent, and dries out very quick in the sun.

As far as my understanding of Goretex goes, it would not do much good as and outer shell of the sleepingbag.
Would be much better to have it on the inner side, I think.

[sethd513]

My plan is to at bare minimum always have my eVENT bivy with with this col bag. No reason to not use it at 12 oz untill I find its limits. I had it made custom so winter bags and boots fit with ease. With no wind protection ie tarp or tent it wouldnt be worth while crawlin in without a bivy just to freeze a few hours later to get into the bivy. it looks like this weekend the ems winter tent will be coming out with temps predicted around -15 with 30mph winds. Pretty good tent holds about 10-15* over the outside temp. It’s over kill but I might have my wife carry the event bivy for herself inside the tent just Incase. She layers a 10 and 30* quilt but better to be safe then sorry.

I was worried about the pertex shell as hardshell materials are stuffy. As far as I can see you gotta get In dry and stay dry when it’s cold.


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[zelph]

Bitter Cold -27º Overnight with Alex & Jonah



Ely, Minnesota Hammock Backpack Trip....Minus 40ºF

[Tipi Walter]

Thanks Zelph for the vids. Shug is well known for his subzero hammock trips and I'm sure in his video archive he's done such trips in low temps for longer times. These two vids only show a one night trip---tough for sure at -30F---but terribly tough when stretched out for 15 or 20 more days.

I like his comment, "feels balmy at minus twenty." Reminds me of a quote from arctic explorer Robert Falcon Scott who said there's a big difference between -50F and -70F---he felt -70 was much more dangerous.

Luckily here in the Southeast we only get -10F or -20F on occasion, although Mt Leconte and other high peaks like Grandfather Mt and Mt Mitchell are notorious for getting severely cold in the -20F range nearly every winter. On my last December trip to Bob Mt in TN/NC Mt LeConte was at 1F and I had about 12F, but Januarys are always worse.

I know the winter trekker boys use hot tents for severe cold---Kifaru tipis with wood stoves---but I've never seen such a setup with backpackers here in the Southeast. Then again, on my long winter trips at 0F or below I never see anyone anyway. Lucky me.

In Shug's situation (and here in the mountains at 0F), packing up every day and moving to a next camp and repeating this for the next 20 days is a real challenge. It's the day in and day out struggle to keep the hands and feet happy and the down items fully lofted and the next campsite for my tent shoveled clear etc.

"Packing big items into small sacks" perfectly describes the hassle of winter backpacking. And it's usually done in the morning when it's coldest and when you are warm emerging from your sleeping bag.

[Time Zone]

That’s a good way to put it. Does anyone else feel this way.


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Yes - I think it's worth noting all the underlying assumptions behind a sleeping bag's rating. It's so easy to just assume you'll be comfortable down to the temperature on the label, but that temp could be based on assumptions that simply don't apply to you, whether it's the thickness of your pad, the warmth of your base layers, your age/sex/weight (ratings are based on specific baselines w/r/t those things), etc. One can get deep into the weeds* about the assumptions behind the ratings, but the point is to put anyone who claims temp ratings based on them on an even footing. It's up to you to estimate how the EN rating may vary for your particular situation, should you be older than 25, male not female, heavier than the mannequin, use a pad that is more or less insulative than baseline, etc.

*I'm curious about the board mentioned in EN 13537 testing - this elevated 12mm wooden board on which the sleeping pad rests. I suppose that could have some relevance for (some) shelters (if no air gaps between the boards), but I don't know anyone pitching a tent on the ground that would have their pad on a wooden board. Anyway, that was kind of an unexpected assumption.



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[Time Zone]

Then again, on my long winter trips at 0F or below I never see anyone anyway. Lucky me.

Woot has a t-shirt for soloists:

8a6ef7e1-44f7-4c07-aa16-5d51c0f2c153.png

Just kidding.
Mostly.

[Tipi Walter]

The best test of a bag's rating is to throw it out in the backyard tonight and sleep and see how correct it is.

Plus, a down sleeping bag is never as dry and as lofted and as warm as it is at home unfurled before a trip. This is important. Such a bag may very well be a true 0F rated bag when taken out of the house and thrown in the backyard tent tonight---but take that same bag out on a long backpacking trip and it's at-home warmth and loft won't be as strong. This is due to trip length, air humidity, your body's condensation and other factors.

For this reason it's important for winter backpackers who want to carry down bags to GO OVERKILL. If you expect 0F, get a -20F bag.

[egilbe]

A lot of bag manufacturers post the expected survival temps as their bag ratings, not comfortable temps. It was only -6 last night and I had to take off my fleece mittens and my Eddie Bauer Ignitelite jacket because I was too warm. Slept in cap 2 baselayers with fleece pants and Icebreaker 260 wt long sleeve crew and a hooded power stretch fleece hoody.

[Dogwood]

Suggest this be assimilated.

Bag ratings are pretty much rated at worse case, you will survive but maybe not be comfy temps. So a -20 degree bag will keep you alive at -20 but you may not sleep all that well.


With the institution of standardized EN 13537 temp ratings assigning 3 separate ratings it's easier to select a bag you're comfortable with based on gender, sleep temp tolerances, fit, activity, etc. See *Notes below


Some bag manufacturers have even gone the route of putting 3 ratings on the bag.


It's not manufacturers that do this testing. ..."these tests are conducted by a third party in internationally certified labs using standardized testing methods for each bag, the resulting ratings serve as a fairly accurate guide to what temperature range a sleeping bag is best suited to perform in. More importantly, this standardized testing allows you to reliably compare sleeping bags across different brands, helping you pick the perfect bag for your next excursion. When looking at EN temperature ratings, there are two main numbers you’ll want to look for and consider— the EN comfort rating and the EN lower limit rating. The bag’s comfort rating indicates the lowest temperature in which the average woman will sleep comfortably in that bag. The lower limit rating indicates the lowest temperature in which the average man will sleep comfortably in that bag." This was done to avoid fudging of bag temp ratings creating a standard 3rd party independent rating.

Pace Measom summed it up here: https://www.backcountry.com/explore/...g-bags-decoded


*Note: Now, here's the rub, and what I currently personally understand. Sleeping bag temp ratings 10* f and below aren't EN temp rated. That's up to the bag manufacturer. So what gives? Who is to be trusted?

Philip Werner https://sectionhiker.com/cold-weathe...ature-ratings/


With that said it is very common practice in mountaineering to where your down suit or parka/pants in your bag. Problem is room. Plus you'll want room for a water bottle or 2 in the foot box.

Well, all the bag manufacturers below state on their sites under what conditions they rate their bags. No, they aren't all assigning temp ratings based on what you've said although that can be a typical practice. *Note under what conditions Philip says how most cold weather bag manufacturers get their ratings.

Now back to those 10* and below bag ratings. So, if we are ignorant of this info who is most to blame? So, who might be most trustworthy? IMHO, I seek to purchase cold weather sleeping bags(10* and below) from high end manufacturers that currently or have personally historically been heavily involved with mountaineering, especially winter mountaineering and climbing and possibly expedition/remote endeavors that have demonstrated transparency and a solid reputation...for things like accurate temp ratings based on their clearly defined temp rating standards(found on company sites for all those listed below), construction techniques, materials, design, reliability, etc. Why? Mountaineers and climbers and those on expeditions don't just feel "uncomfortable" as one may on the AT during summer. They lose fingers, toes, feet, and noses,... and may die if their equipment specs and performance margins aren't solid.

What I surely don't want is a bag manufacturer that has ANY tendency of inflating it's assigned bag temp ratings.

What I surely don't want is to assume I need a -20 degree bag because I highly question the assigned 0* rating to begin with! Why purchase it in the first place if such a bag manufacturer has tendencies to fudge critical to survival specs like bags with 10* to -40* ratings?

What I surely don't want is to be ignorant of info high end transparent cold weather sleeping bag manufacturers post at their sites that takes out of context how those ratings were assigned.


So let's look at these histories:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmot_(company) Founded by two mountaineers in Grand Junction Colorado. Lot of good things come out of CO. Some of the most outdoorsy athletic 4 season active folks live and play in CO.

Likewise:

Feathered Friends is a down specialist birthed out of the Seattle WA climbing scene. Lots of high elevation stuff in eastern WA with outdoors people that get out, some yr round in some nasty weather.

Western Mountaineering - duh the name should give it away. Started by two northern CA mountaineers

Valandre - http://www.valandre.com/about-us.html ... "Valandre...producing technical high altitude expedition(gear-sleeping bags, apparel) is not a little dream world, where the designers float around in an idle dreaming.We have the responsibility to develop and produce a reliable product where a compromise is not an option."

Who do you want to buy a winter sleeping bag or quilt from? And, why?

[Dogwood]

The best test of a bag's rating is to throw it out in the backyard tonight and sleep and see how correct it is...

For this reason it's important for winter backpackers who want to carry down bags to GO OVERKILL. If you expect 0F, get a -20F bag.

You can(or attempt to do this) but how about first starting with bag manufacturers that have a historically proven track record offering solid temp ratings on their cold weather sleeping bags? Throwing down a bag in a backyard to see if it's temp rating is accurate is not a valid option to try duplicate if you're a mountaineer, climber, or one inclined to expeditions. How about noting under what conditions these cold weather sleeping bag manufacturers arrive at their temp ratings BEFORE purchasing?

[Dogwood]

...Plus, a down sleeping bag is never as dry and as lofted and as warm as it is at home unfurled before a trip. This is important. Such a bag may very well be a true 0F rated bag when taken out of the house and thrown in the backyard tent tonight---but take that same bag out on a long backpacking trip and it's at-home warmth and loft won't be as strong. This is due to trip length, air humidity, your body's condensation and other factors.

For this reason it's important for winter backpackers who want to carry down bags to GO OVERKILL. If you expect 0F, get a -20F bag.

Even going OVERKILL as you state doesn't always work...at least from a sleep system performance and light wt(YES, there're winter UL/light wt kits too!) perspective. It works for you based on your outdoors style and duration of winter trips(which ALL seem to last 9-17 days) taking a -20 when you only require a 0*. But there's a time when it makes greater sense to consider other things like going to a synthetic bag/quilt like Skurka did on his Alaskan Traverse or getting to a dryer or out in the sun to re-loft or employing hydrophobic down(not necessarily as a magic bullet but as added insurance of conserving loft) or employing VBLs as some do or....???

[egilbe]

Airing out a bag during your hike should mitigate a lot if the residual vapor that the down may hold. Getting out of your bag and immediately packing it will force the moist, warm air out of the bag. Fortunately cold air is very dry and any frost in the bag will evaporate quickly in any sunshine.

[Tipi Walter]

Woot has a t-shirt for soloists:

8a6ef7e1-44f7-4c07-aa16-5d51c0f2c153.png

Just kidding.
Mostly.

Nice!

You can(or attempt to do this) but how about first starting with bag manufacturers that have a historically proven track record offering solid temp ratings on their cold weather sleeping bags? Throwing down a bag in a backyard to see if it's temp rating is accurate is not a valid option to try duplicate if you're a mountaineer, climber, or one inclined to expeditions. How about noting under what conditions these cold weather sleeping bag manufacturers arrive at their temp ratings BEFORE purchasing?

Traditionally, mountaineers based their bag needs on the amount of goose down inside a bag---35ozs being the standard goal.

This is one number we seem to forget---and applies both to parka or puffies or sleeping bags etc. How much actual down in ounces is inside your item? This is a number often difficult to find on websites selling down gear, although WM and FF are careful to include it in their specs. Many puffy jackets have no such number, probably because it is very low.

For instance, when I bought my down parka several years ago it had over 15 ozs of 850 fill. Now the same parka has 13 ozs . . . for the same price. Aghast.

For me I need a sleeping bag with at least 35 ozs of 850 fill. And plus I base my purchase on the company making the bag, in my mind the higher the quality the warmer, which has worked out for WM and old North Face and Marmot sort of.

[Tipi Walter]

Even going OVERKILL as you state doesn't always work...at least from a sleep system performance and light wt(YES, there're winter UL/light wt kits too!) perspective. It works for you based on your outdoors style and duration of winter trips(which ALL seem to last 9-17 days) taking a -20 when you only require a 0*. But there's a time when it makes greater sense to consider other things like going to a synthetic bag/quilt like Skurka did on his Alaskan Traverse or getting to a dryer or out in the sun to re-loft or employing hydrophobic down(not necessarily as a magic bullet but as added insurance of conserving loft) or employing VBLs as some do or....???

Your comment "taking a -20 when you only require a 0F" is why I made my previous points about going overkill. A 0F bag is the right tool for the job IF the job never changes. On Day 1 of a 24 day trip yes your 0F might work at night with 10F temps. But on Day 8 of the trip temps could go south and you really need the extra weight of more Geese . . . and the -20F bag. I consider overkill geese to be insurance on a long winter trip, accounting also for the slow loss of loft and humid winter conditions/condensation on a long trip.

Remember, we're talking "deep winter" here.

[egilbe]

I have to agree with Tipi here. I carry a 4 pound Winter bag because Winter is not the time to be "Stupid Light". What can be mildly uncomfortable in Summer is lethal in the Winter. The margin for error is so much smaller. I'll carry the extra pound of feathers.

[Wil]

...maybe that falls apart for these really low temps?

It is a good useful notion as a reference point to start with. But the variance is not necessarily linear and certainly the trend for most people would be an increasing % of variance as the temp lowers. But what is the slope of that trend? That's what the individual has to figure out.

My wildass guess is that for many people the variance line trends up from 70-80F to about 65-70% higher by zero F. IOW if you have a variance of -10F at around 75 your variance is -17 F by zero. My experience is that age pushes the whole variance line up a bit and also increases the slope.

[blw2]

It's based on a little more than just pure notion..... it was partially based on the data that EE presents here.
https://support.enlightenedequipment...-Sleep-Systems
someone, sorry don't remember who to give the credit, pointed me to that write up....
and it helped to quantify what I have been thinking.....

I suspect that you're right though about some variance in the extremes..... Although they present specs to well below zero, EE did qualify their data to say that use below zero should be by experienced users....but what they present points to things being a linear relationship based on 70F, and I think that kinda makes sense. Perhaps variables such as pads below and shelters above and fit of the system with dead air spaces inside, sleeper's activity, etc... play a more significant role in the extremes.....

[Venchka]

Me and my Alpinlite are headed to the backyard after while. Night #3 waiting for a morning in the Teens. The weather gussers keep changing the forecast.
Footnote:
The EN testing looses reliability somewhere between 20F & 10F. The marketing folks tend to round down on the Male Lower Limit rating. Conversely, the 20F Alpinlite in the USA is the 16F Lower Limit Alpinlite in the EU.
Wayne