Hiking in Colder Temps

[Pringles]

The thing that surprised me, when hiking in temperatures that you described, are how treacherous the stream crossings are. The stream is moving along happily, but those rocks that you want to balance on to keep your feet from getting wet, they have a layer of ice. I planned extra time for stream crossings.

[Tipi Walter]

The thing that surprised me, when hiking in temperatures that you described, are how treacherous the stream crossings are. The stream is moving along happily, but those rocks that you want to balance on to keep your feet from getting wet, they have a layer of ice. I planned extra time for stream crossings.

Creek crossings when backpacking (vs dayhiking) are very difficult when the temps plunge to 0F and there's snow on the ground. On my last 21 day trip (just got back) I pulled a total of 46 creek crossings and either rock hopped in boots or used barefeet in my crocs to get across. There wasn't snow on the ground but the water was butt cold. Dual hiking sticks also help immensely in tough crossings UNLESS you need to lean down and grab creek rocks for balance as you cross.

Another big challenge is to NOT use your boots for these crossings and instead use creek shoes. Why? To keep the boots and socks as dry as possible for as long as possible. This also includes trail runners. 0F temps change everything.

So then the challenge becomes backpacking a long trail with a dozen or more crossings in quick succession---which requires staying in your creek shoes the whole time. This is made worse with snow on the trail. Because snow comes into crocs and plasters your bare feet.

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Last year I was in the Upper Bald wilderness and had to cross Upper Bald River which was half covered in a sheet of ice. How fun was it? Extremely fun. I had to stomp on the ice to break it apart and let it float downstream and ice break my way across.

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One of my worst crossings was during the Polar Vortex of 2014 after it warmed up to 0F and I had to cross Brookshire Creek on the Benton MacKaye trail. In bare feet and crocs.

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Let the games begins.

[clusterone]

Seal Skinz (waterproof and merino insulated) socks are my friend for cold crossings, and deep winter hiking in general. Sure beats barefoot. I have the near knee high socks, so unless the water comes over the top you have dry feet. FYI - tried Rocky Goretex socks (they leaked at seams) and NRS socks(also leak).

https://www.sealskinzusa.com/custome...SAAEgI8MvD_BwE

[Tipi Walter]

Seal Skinz (waterproof and merino insulated) socks are my friend for cold crossings, and deep winter hiking in general. Sure beats barefoot. I have the near knee high socks, so unless the water comes over the top you have dry feet. FYI - tried Rocky Goretex socks (they leaked at seams) and NRS socks(also leak).

https://www.sealskinzusa.com/custome...SAAEgI8MvD_BwE

Gotta give them a try---but only for winter creek crossings in my crocs. A Christmas pre-order for January---too late for a December trip.

[egilbe]

Up here, Tipi, the Brooks and streams freeze solid or there are snow bridges one can cross. Heaven help you tnough, if you fall in.

[kayak karl]

Stay dry. Drinks lots of water even if you don't want it. Stay dry

[spfleisig]

So here is the summary and it is way boring.

We started hiking at the Delaware Water Gap at 5:22am on Friday and did 24.4 miles to the Brinks shelter. We finished hiking around 4pm. I hiked in running shorts and mid-weight running tights. On top I had a SS running top and a mid-weight fleece top. Wore a buff on my head and some fleece gloves. That was fine for the whole day.

We set up the tents in the shelter. A two-man free standing tent and the Zpacks Duplex. Halfway through the hike it struck me that maybe the Duplex isn't the right tent for sub 25 degrees. Well we finished our dinner around 6pm and we had a whole bunch of night ahead of us. Because the Duplex couldn't be put up properly, I think it led to a colder night than anticipated. After watching some stuff on my phone, I called it quits around 9:30pm. I have a Western Mountaineering Alpinlite 20 degree bag and the NeoAir Xlite pad. I slept with the same socks, bottoms, tops plus another LS running top and a puffy jacket and the same buff and gloves. I was ok in the bag and was either entirely in the bag or just had my face outside the bag.

It was a very long night. Didn't sleep well...it was 23 degrees at 9:30pm and 23 at 5:30am. The bag is rated to 20 degrees but I had a lot more clothes on than what I understand is the standard of long bottoms, long top and hat. That leads me to question whether the 20 degree rating on my bag is legit given I had a lot more clothes on and I'm normally a warm sleeper.

I also was left wondering how much of a difference the "proper" tent would have made. What do "professionals" say is the typical temp you stop using a 3 season tent and move to a winter tent. What makes a winter tent different than a 3 season tent? How much difference would have been made with a pad with a higher R value?

Bottom line for me is I have no problems hiking in 25 degrees but I thinking sleeping in 25 degrees isn't my cup of tea. Worrying about freezing water filters and water...long nights....

One valuable lesson I did come away with was to carry extra Smart water bottle caps. My bottle came out one time and the cap cracked.

After waking up on Saturday, we saw the weather report called for a 50% chance or better of rain and wind from Saturday afternoon to Sunday afternoon. So we opted to just hike 4 miles into Branchville and we got picked up and driven back to the Gap to our cars. We went out again today and started back in Branchville and did the 14 miles to High Point State Park office.

[egilbe]

Neoair xlite has an r-value of 3.2. kinda light for subfreezing temps. Adding a z-lite or the like would have boosted it to 5+ and been more suitable to those temps. EN ratings are measured with a pad with an r-value of 5. Probably why you were cold.

[egilbe]

I use our 4-season tent when I expect sub freezing temps and/or snow and/or high winds. I like the dual wall design, I just wish it didn't weigh 7 lbs.

[Venchka]

So here is the summary and it is way boring.

We started hiking at the Delaware Water Gap at 5:22am on Friday and did 24.4 miles to the Brinks shelter. We finished hiking around 4pm. I hiked in running shorts and mid-weight running tights. On top I had a SS running top and a mid-weight fleece top. Wore a buff on my head and some fleece gloves. That was fine for the whole day.

We set up the tents in the shelter. A two-man free standing tent and the Zpacks Duplex. Halfway through the hike it struck me that maybe the Duplex isn't the right tent for sub 25 degrees. Well we finished our dinner around 6pm and we had a whole bunch of night ahead of us. Because the Duplex couldn't be put up properly, I think it led to a colder night than anticipated. After watching some stuff on my phone, I called it quits around 9:30pm. I have a Western Mountaineering Alpinlite 20 degree bag and the NeoAir Xlite pad. I slept with the same socks, bottoms, tops plus another LS running top and a puffy jacket and the same buff and gloves. I was ok in the bag and was either entirely in the bag or just had my face outside the bag.

It was a very long night. Didn't sleep well...it was 23 degrees at 9:30pm and 23 at 5:30am. The bag is rated to 20 degrees but I had a lot more clothes on than what I understand is the standard of long bottoms, long top and hat. That leads me to question whether the 20 degree rating on my bag is legit given I had a lot more clothes on and I'm normally a warm sleeper.

I also was left wondering how much of a difference the "proper" tent would have made. What do "professionals" say is the typical temp you stop using a 3 season tent and move to a winter tent. What makes a winter tent different than a 3 season tent? How much difference would have been made with a pad with a higher R value?

Bottom line for me is I have no problems hiking in 25 degrees but I thinking sleeping in 25 degrees isn't my cup of tea. Worrying about freezing water filters and water...long nights....

One valuable lesson I did come away with was to carry extra Smart water bottle caps. My bottle came out one time and the cap cracked.

After waking up on Saturday, we saw the weather report called for a 50% chance or better of rain and wind from Saturday afternoon to Sunday afternoon. So we opted to just hike 4 miles into Branchville and we got picked up and driven back to the Gap to our cars. We went out again today and started back in Branchville and did the 14 miles to High Point State Park office.

I own an Alpinlite and use an Xtherm Large under the bag inside an MSR HUBBA HUBBA NX. To date I have been totally comfortable in my lightest synthetic long underwear top and bottom, fleece beanie and Darn Tough AT logo socks at 25 degrees. The following night I switched to mid weight merino wool underwear and added fleece gloves and slept fine to 15 degrees when I woke up at 6 am.
I was on the ground.
I think a higher R value pad and on the ground would be better than off the ground in a shelter. The net venting at ground level in the Duplex didn’t help either.
I’m not a fan of the current tent fashion of placing net near ground level. The Hubba Hubba netting starts well above ground level and my StratoSpire 1 has the solid inner tent. The way double wall tents should be made.
I’m totally impressed with your progress on the first day. Well done!
Wayne

[Venchka]

PS:
Move as much down as possible from the bottom of the Alpinlite to the top. That might help.
Wayne

[TX Aggie]

Seal Skinz (waterproof and merino insulated) socks are my friend for cold crossings, and deep winter hiking in general. Sure beats barefoot. I have the near knee high socks, so unless the water comes over the top you have dry feet. FYI - tried Rocky Goretex socks (they leaked at seams) and NRS socks(also leak).

https://www.sealskinzusa.com/custome...SAAEgI8MvD_BwE

Thanks for the reminder, I love seal skins and need a new pair. Their gloves are my favorite.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tipi Walter]

It was a very long night. Didn't sleep well...it was 23 degrees at 9:30pm and 23 at 5:30am. The bag is rated to 20 degrees but I had a lot more clothes on than what I understand is the standard of long bottoms, long top and hat. That leads me to question whether the 20 degree rating on my bag is legit given I had a lot more clothes on and I'm normally a warm sleeper.

I also was left wondering how much of a difference the "proper" tent would have made. What do "professionals" say is the typical temp you stop using a 3 season tent and move to a winter tent. What makes a winter tent different than a 3 season tent? How much difference would have been made with a pad with a higher R value?

Bottom line for me is I have no problems hiking in 25 degrees but I thinking sleeping in 25 degrees isn't my cup of tea. Worrying about freezing water filters and water...long nights....

This in a nutshell reveals the main problems many backpackers have on winter trips---Not a warm enough bag/pad combo; and the quandary between a 3 season and a 4 season tent.

First off, the rule of thumb is a 20F rated bag works to 35F---so to stay comfy at 20F you'll need a 5F bag. It's the "15 degree" rule. If you plan on staying comfy for many long winter nights at 20F---get a Zero rated bag. What's the worst that can happen? You'll sleep too warm? If so, unzip and use it as a quilt.

Another corollary is to use a sleeping pad or pad combo of at least 5R. The higher the number the better.

The 3 vs 4 season tent is a subject hotly debated on backpacking forums. I myself won't use anything but a 4 season tent, for various reasons. Namely---
** Beefier floor and more waterproof floor (higher hydrostatic head). Comes in handy in a tent on wet slush.
** No mesh on the inner tent that cannot be sealed with zippered canopy fabric. This is important in all ways and esp so during blizzards with spindrift. Blown snow will go thru unsealable inner tent mesh.

** A double wall tent drastically reduces condensation reaching you and your gear---and obviates the need to wipe down the inside of your single wall tent every two hours.
** A 4 season tent is built to withstand higher winds because of beefier poles, a better design and stronger guy out tabs with ample guylines. You'll thank me later on a mountaintop in a 60mph blizzard. My current winter tent takes 14 pegs.

[spfleisig]

How does one do that?

[spfleisig]

How does one do that?

PS:
Move as much down as possible from the bottom of the Alpinlite to the top. That might help.
Wayne

[egilbe]

How does one do that?

Pick it up by the bottom and shake it.

[BlackCloud]

I find that a dry shirt and something warm to drink can overcome most.

[Venchka]

Moving the down:
Open the zipper.
Hold the bag up by the zipper half attached to the bottom of the bag.
Gently shake the bag to shift the down toward the top half of the bag.
I also lay the bag open and flat. I use my hands to push the down from the bottom toward the top.
The objective is to fill the top with as much down as possible.
If needed I will draw the collar sung around my neck and close the hood so that only my nose is sticking out. I have a light balaclava that covers my nose and keeps it warm.
The EN Male Lower Limit Rating of the Alpinlite is 16 degrees Fahrenheit. That rating is accurate according to my ancient bones. I would not have bought it if I only expected to use it at 35 degrees F.
Wayne

[Leo L.]

For winter camping, a 4 seasons tent is mandatory (as others pointed out).
The difference is dramatic.

The coldest I ever had in a tent was on the slopes of Mont Blanc (the highest in Europe). The little thermometer indicated something lower than -20°C - inside the tent.
This was in my old Salewa Sierra Nevada, double wall, not exactly the best 4-seasons, but OK.
I had "the best" Salewa expedition down bag, a double-thick CCF mat and was in full clothes, including a down jacket.
Slept fine, trouble was the nose freezing.

A year later we were tenting on another high mountain, similar height, similar cold (maybe a tad less), same bag&mattress, but the tent was a Sumitomo Nanga Parbat which at this time was "the best" expedition tent designed for Himalaya and such.
I was really warm in the bag, had to open it and was short of using it as a quilt.

A really good 4-seasons tent makes all the difference.

[cmoulder]

Once again, the problem is the air mat. In those temps, a Neoair xlite MUST be supplemented with a (minimum) 3/8" closed cell foam pad ON TOP, or, as has been suggested, use an Xtherm. If still cold, wear all (DRY) clothing as well... everything ya brung, coats, longjohns, buffs hats gloves, yada yada. Still cold? Use a hot water bottle to augment, and budget extra stove fuel for this purpose.

And yes, a Duplex is not a winter tent. I have a Duplex but for winter conditions I use a MLD Duomid. Pitched tight to the deck it blocks wind well and that is the key.

Two things I have to ask: What do you mean by "tents put up in the shelter" and "Duplex couldn't be pitched properly"???