Hammock vs Ground System: Situational Advantage

[johnspenn]

Here's an excerpt from my latest blog article:

"This article and video are not comprehensive arguments with the intention to persuade anyone into choosing one system over the other, but they do highlight what seems to be a distinct advantage that a hammocker would have over a ground sleeper (whether they use a tent, tarp, bivy sack or pretty much any other ground based system). The following scenario is something that anyone who backpacks in mountainous areas could encounter. (Note: if you are well above tree-line or in an area lacking forestation, obviously this wouldn’t apply.)"

Hammock vs Ground System: Situational Advantage

[2Birds1Stone]

Really enjoyed your video/article.

[johnspenn]

Really enjoyed your video/article.

Hey thanks, I appreciate you checking it out!

[Tipi Walter]

Interesting concepts and especially so for hammock users but not really relevant to me, a tent camper. And since your post is titled "Hammock VS Ground System" I can add these pointers for those of us using ground systems---

Your "exposed ridgeline" scenario is aptly described and worded except you leave out the obvious solution---to set up a tent right on the ridgeline, a practice I am very comfortable with since I'm always carrying a tent equipped for such conditions (4 season, 14 pegs etc).

Your quote, "Descend out of the worst of the wind and the driving rain" is not something I want to do, in fact I most enjoy worsening wind and driving rain---and setting up directly on the ridge decreases "getting wet time" by finding a level spot fast on the ridge and not spending time bailing off the ridge, usually on a bushwack.

Why a bushwack? Because 95% of the time there's no side trail off the ridge as in your example. So it's usually a hellslog bushwack down the side of a mountain. Granted with a hammock you don't have far to go to get out of the wind---maybe a hundred feet? And then tie up in some trees.

After all this, then there's the scenario of pulling long hours in camp waiting for a storm to pass. I call this Hunkering In. I routinely pull several zero days at the same spot in terrible storms, especially winter rainstorms at 35F. I can't imagine pulling several days under a tarp in a hammock to sit out a storm but I'm sure people have done it. What's the longest time you've hunkered in with your tarp and hammock??

And a footnote: Often ridgelines lead to open balds and meadows---perfect spots to put a tent too.

[johnspenn]

Hey Tipi, thanks for chiming in. I will start by saying that I make no pretensions to have anywhere near the kind of back-country experience that you do. I always enjoy reading your trip reports and viewing your photos, and each and every one of your trips always seems like an epic adventure.

I will also say in general: If you own a tent or a tarp or bivy sack or any other ground-based system, and are happy with it, and are confident that it will get you through the conditions which you normally adventure in, then there is no need to switch your system for any other (including a hammock system).

I will attempt to address your remarks point by point. Not trying to argue, because that would just be stupid of me, but just trying to think along with a seasoned veteran.

Interesting concepts and especially so for hammock users but not really relevant to me, a tent camper. And since your post is titled "Hammock VS Ground System" I can add these pointers for those of us using ground systems---
Your "exposed ridgeline" scenario is aptly described and worded except you leave out the obvious solution---to set up a tent right on the ridgeline, a practice I am very comfortable with since I'm always carrying a tent equipped for such conditions (4 season, 14 pegs etc).

I've seen your tent, it's impressive. But, for a tent that big, don't you need a pretty big area to set it up? I'm sure in an urgent situation you wouldn't have to be as picky about site selection as you normally are, but there would still be some minimum space requirements for a footprint that large.

Like you said, your tent is 4 season, and I'm sure bomb-proof. Not everyone (in fact hardly anyone i know of) carries a tent like that. Most of today's backpackers carry a lightweight or ultralight tent that most likely wouldn't withstand the weather your tent would, and certainly wouldn't be a comfortable place to hunker down in for a few days.

Your quote, "Descend out of the worst of the wind and the driving rain" is not something I want to do, in fact I most enjoy worsening wind and driving rain---and setting up directly on the ridge decreases "getting wet time" by finding a level spot fast on the ridge and not spending time bailing off the ridge, usually on a bushwack.

I agree that "Shwacking" off the ridgeline isn't optimal, but in the situation presented IMO it's the best option. But that's just what it is, my opinion. Everyone has to make their own decision when they're faced with challenging conditions. As far as "finding a level spot fast on the ridge", I've walked ridgelines where there were no suitable tenting places for appreciable distances (although admittedly I could have missed them since I wasn't specifically looking for them). In the midst of the storm that could, it seems to me, be just as challenging as descending off the ridge line.

Why a bushwack? Because 95% of the time there's no side trail off the ridge as in your example. So it's usually a hellslog bushwack down the side of a mountain. Granted with a hammock you don't have far to go to get out of the wind---maybe a hundred feet? And then tie up in some trees.

There was a convenient side trail where I "bailed". In fact i hiked to that spot because of that side trail lol. But that's because I was at Kennesaw Mountain NBP and was using the convenient trail for dramatization purposes only. Every situation is obviously different. If you're walking through a rhododendron or mountain laurel thicket, you're probably not getting through it, so you you would have to come up with an alternate plan.

After all this, then there's the scenario of pulling long hours in camp waiting for a storm to pass. I call this Hunkering In. I routinely pull several zero days at the same spot in terrible storms, especially winter rainstorms at 35F. I can't imagine pulling several days under a tarp in a hammock to sit out a storm but I'm sure people have done it. What's the longest time you've hunkered in with your tarp and hammock??

To directly answer your question, never more than a night. And hunkering in under that postage stamp of a tarp I was carrying in the video in the conditions you outlined would certainly be miserable. But, my plan would be to get out of the rain, get dry, warmed up, maybe a meal and/or a hot drink, through the worst or brunt of the storm, and then head back out.

That said, I have a 12x12 winter tarp that would IMO make a great place to hunker for an extended period of time, and would much prefer hunkering underneath it nested in my hammock and insulation that stuck on the ground doing the same thing.

And a footnote: Often ridgelines lead to open balds and meadows---perfect spots to put a tent too.

Touche. I would have to agree. I've seen videos of some balds that I couldn't hammock on without carrying some specialized equipment I don't normally carry, but ground dwellers have no problem setting up there.

Again, thanks for your input thus far and I enjoyed thinking through the points you made! Happy trails!

[Starchild]

I have to also chime in that I would most likely have set up the tent on the ridge line also, and I carry a 3 season tent. Not the bombproof shelter that Tipi uses but one that takes a bit of care to pitch dry up there. Being dry and snug in a tent shielded from a pouring and pounding rain storm can be the greatest feeling in the world.


I am curious why you would need to descend to a more sheltered position with a hammock. I would think there should be enough protection so you could set up up there too. Or perhaps that is a advantage to tents, more protection. I don't know.

[Tipi Walter]

I have to also chime in that I would most likely have set up the tent on the ridge line also, and I carry a 3 season tent. Not the bombproof shelter that Tipi uses but one that takes a bit of care to pitch dry up there. Being dry and snug in a tent shielded from a pouring and pounding rain storm can be the greatest feeling in the world.


I am curious why you would need to descend to a more sheltered position with a hammock. I would think there should be enough protection so you could set up up there too. Or perhaps that is a advantage to tents, more protection. I don't know.

Thanks Johnspenn for the reasoned responses---a relief from the usual blasting retorts and howling criticisms so common on forums.

And Starchild---Your last two sentences are great and remind me of meeting Sgt Rock in January 2008 when he was pulling his BMT thruhike and using a hammock. We met atop Whiggs Meadow at 5,000 feet in a miserably cold wind as I was on top in my tent cooking up stir fry broccoli. See his trail journal entry here---

http://www.trailjournals.com/journal/entry/215393

He mentions me telling him of a place further along the trail with a great place to camp---on a ridge in a wind tunnel! Sgt Rock's words---

I told him where I planned to camp and he suggested another site which is basically where I am tonight - but not exactly out in the open like he would camp here. As I was hiking here I started thinking that I just took advice about where to camp in January from a guy that intentionally goes up to these balds in 40mph winds and snow and he specifically said he refers to this spot as his snow camp. But once I got here I got it sorted out and set up my rig quickly as the wind was picking up hard and I could feel a rain coming. Turns out I was right, but I'm dry under here as I cook dinner and write.

The next day at that exposed (and recommended) campsite he writes---

This morning when I woke up it was 6. And by 6, I don't mean it was 6 a.m., I mean it was 6F (That is -15C for my European friends).Last night the wind was blowing hard. It sounded like a squadron of jets were over me doing low altitude fly-byes. My camp was at about 4500' so I was almost up in it. I at least had the brains to get on the leeward side and down in a little hole on the spur I camped on. Even with that the wind was beating up my tarp.
"

[Starchild]

The more I think about this, the more it appears in this situation it is really the tent that has the advantage.

It appears he was caught in a rain storm in a area where, if having a tent, it could be pitched right away, changed into warm dry clothes and cooked a hot meal. But because he lacked a tent he went searching for a good place to hang (which is how it works both ways - not acceptable area, keep looking for one). Finds a good one (that is not good for tenting - not intentionally, just situationally) and claims it is a advantage for hammocks, though the hammock could not be set up when needed till a better site was found.

The site he was looking for and found would not be the way a tenter would look at it and a tenter would most likely look at things differently. Once he found a good place to hang he states how unsuitable that site is for tenting - yes because he was looking, in the pounding rain for a spot to hang.

The comparison is apples to oranges at best as both have their pros and cons, and terrain that is suitable and unsuitable, and it does sometimes require hiking on to find it, even bushwaching off trail for both methods. But in this case, as I can see in this situation, the advantage appears to be the tent in this particular situation, the strategy of the OP was sound for his chosen sleeping method.

There could be and are many situations where a hammock would be better, but this does not appear to be one of them.

[johnspenn]

The more I think about this, the more it appears in this situation it is really the tent that has the advantage.

It appears he was caught in a rain storm in a area where, if having a tent, it could be pitched right away, changed into warm dry clothes and cooked a hot meal. But because he lacked a tent he went searching for a good place to hang (which is how it works both ways - not acceptable area, keep looking for one). Finds a good one (that is not good for tenting - not intentionally, just situationally) and claims it is a advantage for hammocks, though the hammock could not be set up when needed till a better site was found.

The site he was looking for and found would not be the way a tenter would look at it and a tenter would most likely look at things differently. Once he found a good place to hang he states how unsuitable that site is for tenting - yes because he was looking, in the pounding rain for a spot to hang.

The comparison is apples to oranges at best as both have their pros and cons, and terrain that is suitable and unsuitable, and it does sometimes require hiking on to find it, even bushwaching off trail for both methods. But in this case, as I can see in this situation, the advantage appears to be the tent in this particular situation, the strategy of the OP was sound for his chosen sleeping method.

There could be and are many situations where a hammock would be better, but this does not appear to be one of them.

All I will say is that if you're happy sleeping on the ground in your tent, there's absolutely no reason to change =)

[scope]

The more I think about this, the more it appears in this situation it is really the tent that has the advantage.

It appears he was caught in a rain storm in a area where, if having a tent, it could be pitched right away, changed into warm dry clothes and cooked a hot meal. But because he lacked a tent he went searching for a good place to hang (which is how it works both ways - not acceptable area, keep looking for one). Finds a good one (that is not good for tenting - not intentionally, just situationally) and claims it is a advantage for hammocks, though the hammock could not be set up when needed till a better site was found.

The site he was looking for and found would not be the way a tenter would look at it and a tenter would most likely look at things differently. Once he found a good place to hang he states how unsuitable that site is for tenting - yes because he was looking, in the pounding rain for a spot to hang.

The comparison is apples to oranges at best as both have their pros and cons, and terrain that is suitable and unsuitable, and it does sometimes require hiking on to find it, even bushwaching off trail for both methods. But in this case, as I can see in this situation, the advantage appears to be the tent in this particular situation, the strategy of the OP was sound for his chosen sleeping method.

There could be and are many situations where a hammock would be better, but this does not appear to be one of them.

Yes, advantage tent in this situation for sure. I do want to point out, though, that your assessment of getting out of the rain more quickly with a tent is wrong. Can't put your rainfly on until the inner tent is setup. A hammock tarp can go up immediately, under which one can get out of the rain more quickly and not have to mop up the tent floor. If the tarp is big enough, it has a comparable ability to block wind, likely has more dry area underneath than in a tent, including more headroom.

[reppans]

Yes, advantage tent in this situation for sure. I do want to point out, though, that your assessment of getting out of the rain more quickly with a tent is wrong. Can't put your rainfly on until the inner tent is setup. A hammock tarp can go up immediately, under which one can get out of the rain more quickly and not have to mop up the tent floor. If the tarp is big enough, it has a comparable ability to block wind, likely has more dry area underneath than in a tent, including more headroom.

Yes, fly up-first/down-last is a nice advantage to have in poor weather conditions and also comes in handy for cooking inside and even digging an indoor latrine. One major reason a floorless mid (pyramid) tent with inner nest (net tent) has become my favorite shelter. In all but the worst mosquito conditions, mine also seems to have a weird flying bug self-bailing action so that I only zip the door closed and erect the inner nest for sleeping (still have a creepy crawly phobia while obliviously asleep). It's really nice not dealing with doors or shoes to get respite from the bugs.

Seen those full coverage hammock flies, but they seem add even more weight and bulk to an already heavy/bulky system.

I do like idea of hammocks though - it's usually a lot easier for me to find trees than flat ground. Just wish I could get comfortable sleeping in them.

[scope]

...Seen those full coverage hammock flies, but they seem add even more weight and bulk to an already heavy/bulky system.

I do like idea of hammocks though - it's usually a lot easier for me to find trees than flat ground. Just wish I could get comfortable sleeping in them.

Have no idea what you're talking about. A tarp should compare favorably to a tent's rain fly and hammock favorable to the inner tent, in both weight and bulk. For a single wall tent you'd have to compare total weight and bulk of tent to the combo of tarp & hammock. As for insulation, the under and top quilts should compare well with the bag & pad used in a tent, or one can simply use the same bag & pad in a hammock.

For example, my heaviest tarp is 22oz - large with doors. Really sort of unfair to compare it to a solo tent due to the amount of area that is my "tent space" under the tarp. My heaviest hammock is 18oz. Together the 40oz pkg would compare at least well, if not favorably to most solo tents. There are those tents that are lighter, but they come with compromises. Fair enough to say that the hammock comes with its own compromises. So, when taking about one vs the other, let's stick to facts and the notion that its really all a personal preference based on what compromises are acceptable for the user.

[reppans]

Have no idea what you're talking about. A tarp should compare favorably to a tent's rain fly and hammock favorable to the inner tent, in both weight and bulk. For a single wall tent you'd have to compare total weight and bulk of tent to the combo of tarp & hammock. As for insulation, the under and top quilts should compare well with the bag & pad used in a tent, or one can simply use the same bag & pad in a hammock.

For example, my heaviest tarp is 22oz - large with doors. Really sort of unfair to compare it to a solo tent due to the amount of area that is my "tent space" under the tarp. My heaviest hammock is 18oz. Together the 40oz pkg would compare at least well, if not favorably to most solo tents. There are those tents that are lighter, but they come with compromises. Fair enough to say that the hammock comes with its own compromises. So, when taking about one vs the other, let's stick to facts and the notion that its really all a personal preference based on what compromises are acceptable for the user.

Have no idea what you're talking about. A tarp should compare favorably to a tent's rain fly and hammock favorable to the inner tent, in both weight and bulk. For a single wall tent you'd have to compare total weight and bulk of tent to the combo of tarp & hammock. As for insulation, the under and top quilts should compare well with the bag & pad used in a tent, or one can simply use the same bag & pad in a hammock.

For example, my heaviest tarp is 22oz - large with doors. Really sort of unfair to compare it to a solo tent due to the amount of area that is my "tent space" under the tarp. My heaviest hammock is 18oz. Together the 40oz pkg would compare at least well, if not favorably to most solo tents. There are those tents that are lighter, but they come with compromises. Fair enough to say that the hammock comes with its own compromises. So, when taking about one vs the other, let's stick to facts and the notion that its really all a personal preference based on what compromises are acceptable for the user.

Yeah I'm referring to the larger hammock tarps with doors and that can be pitched nearly to the ground with 360 protection - something that you can 'hunker down' and cook in in a wind blown rain. To me, 40oz are tight (~35sf total) two person [near] free-standing tents like a Fly Creek; mid-30s oz are roomy (~45sf) 2-person floorless mids; and sub-30oz are roomy (~35sf) solo mids - all inclusive of silnylon, double wall, bathtub floor, footprint, and stakes (mids use trekking poles or a fallen branch for poles).

Yes, I see that the space under those larger 'doored' hammock tarps are really quite large and roomy and so agree may not be directly comparable, but I sort of consider that as a design limitation - it *needs* to provide so much more upper space coverage to the elevated hammock, that you really can't get much smaller or use less fabric, even if you wanted to... which is fine if you want that space. I personally just need a single spot in my solo shelter that I can sit upright comfortably without my head touching anything, floorspace to store/spread-out my gear, and a good place to cook inside in the case of a windblown rain.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to diss hammocks, as I mentioned they'd really solve the flat ground problem where I frequent, and I'd also appreciate the built-in 'chair' functionality if needing to hunker down. I was just trying to describe a double-walled ground alternative that shares the same advantage of the independent interior set-up you stressed, yet also absolutely minimizes the carry weight and bulk of fabric, poles, and straps/cords.

[scope]

...Yes, I see that the space under those larger 'doored' hammock tarps are really quite large and roomy and so agree may not be directly comparable, but I sort of consider that as a design limitation - it *needs* to provide so much more upper space coverage to the elevated hammock, that you really can't get much smaller or use less fabric, even if you wanted to... which is fine if you want that space. I personally just need a single spot in my solo shelter that I can sit upright comfortably without my head touching anything, floorspace to store/spread-out my gear, and a good place to cook inside in the case of a windblown rain.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to diss hammocks, as I mentioned they'd really solve the flat ground problem where I frequent, and I'd also appreciate the built-in 'chair' functionality if needing to hunker down. I was just trying to describe a double-walled ground alternative that shares the same advantage of the independent interior set-up you stressed, yet also absolutely minimizes the carry weight and bulk of fabric, poles, and straps/cords.

I don't think you're dissing hammocks so much as it just seems like you're still under some incorrect perceptions of the hammock setup. I have an 11oz tarp (not cuben) that is what I use in milder weather when blocking wind is less of an issue. I can ride out a summer thunderstorm just fine in it without having coverage all the way to the ground. I think that's a bit of a misconception that we need to be shielded from the environment. No, just need to stay dry, though sometimes we need to be shielded from wind.

When it rains, there is a bright hex shaped spot under my tarp - that is my tent space. Similar to what you might see when you pack up your tent in the a.m. I may decide to pull the walls down to the ground, I may not. Typically in winter, I'll have one wall down with that side doors employed, and the other up in porch mode. I feel much more in tune with the environment that way and the one wall down is usually enough to block significant wind flow.

There certainly are tarps that are big and heavy, but most of us don't use those. Worst I've seen for a standard large tarp with doors is about 30oz. And between that and the hammock, you're still talking comparable weight and bulk. But that's a large setup. A minimalist setup as with my small tarp still gives me a place to sit and do what I need to do while staying dry, same as a solo tent, and most likely with less weight and bulk. With either tarp, I have plenty of space, just a lot more with the larger tarp. Personally, I wouldn't want to cook in that area, but could do so if needed and would likely be safer without a floor to catch fire.

Indeed, though, I would think twice about setting up on a windy ridge in the lighter setup, whereas the solo tent does provide much better wind protection. So, my choice is that I often hike with, as you say, gear that "minimizes the carry weight and bulk" where I decide already in my mind what sort of campsite choices are going to be best for me. I could still make a compromise to camp with a friend on a ridge, but that's a choice to compromise what you had intended to do with the minimalist hammock gear. OR, I can take my larger setup at about the same weight & bulk (or at very little w&b penalty) and have all options open to me.

The point being that I will always have more room than you have in your tent, and it will never be significantly heavier or bulkier, though it might be lighter. Again, and to bring this around to the OP's point, its not the gear exactly, rather its the choices you've made both before you go out and as you're out there. If it were that important to me to camp on flat ridgetops (again, sort of dicey there) or tent pads in a park, then I probably wouldn't choose to hammock. And in that regard, I couldn't blame others for choosing to tent.

[reppans]

I don't think you're dissing hammocks so much as it just seems like you're still under some incorrect perceptions of the hammock setup. I have an 11oz tarp (not cuben) that is what I use in milder weather when blocking wind is less of an issue. I can ride out a summer thunderstorm just fine in it without having coverage all the way to the ground. I think that's a bit of a misconception that we need to be shielded from the environment...

Of course I know hammocks can be lighter without the full cover tarp/wind block - actually, I was only focusing on your original comments (and proposed hammock set-up) here...

Yes, advantage tent in this situation for sure. I do want to point out, though, that your assessment of getting out of the rain more quickly with a tent is wrong. Can't put your rainfly on until the inner tent is setup. A hammock tarp can go up immediately, under which one can get out of the rain more quickly and not have to mop up the tent floor. If the tarp is big enough, it has a comparable ability to block wind, likely has more dry area underneath than in a tent, including more headroom.

...just to clarify that with a mid tent, you can set-up/take-down the inner tent after/before (respectively) the fly. And that the mid tent does have a comparable ability to block wind/rain yet without the excess fabric of the full-coverage, doored, hammock fly. (FWIW, my non-cuben fly weighs 12oz, inner tent 11oz, and footprint/stakes 4oz).

[scope]

I think there's a little bit of the two of us speaking a different language, reppans. Let's just say that in terms of a flat spot on a ridge, I'd prefer to be in your tent I believe. The OP was suggesting situational advantage on a windy ridge that was sloped in such a way that it would be unlikely to find a flat spot, perhaps for some little time while trying to hike off the ridge. Tipi's point applies, but more so in terms of how a hanger should view site selection, though certainly its possible to find yourself in a location at the wrong time where "hunkering down" - whether in a tent or tarp staked to ground - is a better option.

I do have to ask, though... if a hammock setup weighs about the same or less than your tent, where is the excess fabric?

[reppans]

I do have to ask, though... if a hammock setup weighs about the same or less than your tent, where is the excess fabric?

If you can point me to a hammock set-up with bugnet and a full coverage fly with doors and can nearly reach the ground ~27oz - then I'd certainly be interested. From my experience with my mid, floorless with ~80% fly coverage (20% representing open door, peak vents, gaps to ground) has become very important to me, not only for protected cooking/hunkering in a wind-driven weather, but also as an interim 90+% bug-free haven which does not require constant zipping/unzipping through doors, or taking off shoes.

FWIW, I do have an old Hennessey UL Backpacker Asym. Only tried it a few times and couldn't quite get comfortable, but I admittedly did not invest in more time/money to properly tune it before deciding I prefer the more complete enclosure (for self and gear) of a tent. I think a hammock with full fly coverage would get me over that hump. I would like to make a hammock work, as mentioned, it is a PITA for me to find flat ground.

Also what's the warmth vs weight of an underquilt? Currently using an 8oz NeoAir Xlite groundpad to ~freezing. Will I gain weight/bulk there?

Thanks.

[scope]

Again, you have to be careful with the comparisons. I don't use a bugnet, don't need it. I do have one that I can throw in the pack when needed, like when I'm camping with scouts at a lower elevation campground. Otherwise, I'm in the mountains and bug free. I do carry a headnet just in case as it would cover my only exposed area (and holes, LOL). Never used it actually.

Also, the UQ insulates you more than a pad does. As a result, you can use a lighter TQ, which I usually use the slim version. So 8oz for the pad + whatever your bag is = the two quilts. Hard to say where you end up in terms of bulk. The two quilts might pack slightly larger than your bag? Hard for me to say because I don't put them is a stuff sack, I pack them loosely in the bottom of the pack and let other gear compress them. FWIW, my 20 degree TQ is 20oz and my zero degree UQ is 24oz. I use those up through the cold side of 3-season. Milder 3-season I use synthetic quilts, 30 degree UQ that is 20oz and 45 degree TQ that is 16oz.

In all fairness, though, if hunkering down is something you do often, then I probably with stick with what you have. Given mild conditions, the hammock setup can be as light as most solo tents, but doesn't really compete with more extreme shelters like yours, or with tarp-only shelters. At least not in terms of weight and bulk. Guarantee you, though, I sleep a whole lot better. At some point you have to ask yourself what is that worth to you? A pound? There are other modular options for hammocks which are made for more extreme weather, none of which are necessarily bulky but which do add up to significantly more weight.

I'll PM you in the next day or so some ideas/suggestions and we can take this discussion offline so that we don't further hijack this thread.

[Deacon]

I would like to make a hammock work, as mentioned, it is a PITA for me to find flat ground.

When I did my Long Trail thru in 2013, I used my Blackbird with a 20* top and under quilt. Quite often I had a difficult time finding two trees the right distance apart with no brush or smaller trees in between. I found northern Vermont with extremely dense forests. About half the nights I just stayed in the shelters.


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[Martzy13]

I can second your tree-finding conundrum in Vermont, it reminded me of the stories of those lost at sea: surrounded by water with nothing to drink.
I think Vermont was the ONLY state on the AT I struggled to find an acceptable hang every night.