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  1. #1

    Default Awesome new info on TRAIL MAGIC from ATC!

    Found this new info put out by the ATC. Given the many views and responses recently given to the subject on the "Magic is bad for the trail" thread I thought this might be useful. There is also a very good article on the subject in the October edition of Backpacker Magazine re: the trail party scene titled "Trail Daze". Thanks and I like the new format!


    http://appalachiantrail.org/home/exp...ng/trail-magic

  2. #2
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    I like the last line, about volunteering at a food bank instead.

    I've always wondered what is so "angelic" about giving food to a bunch of people who have the luxury of a 4-6 month vacation. I think the little old lady struggling on social security could use the generosity a little bit more.

  3. #3
    Registered User Venchka's Avatar
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    Right on!
    Or...
    Hike where there are few, if any, road crossings. Or other hikers for that matter.
    Ignore them and they will disappear.
    Wayne


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  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zea View Post
    I like the last line, about volunteering at a food bank instead.

    I've always wondered what is so "angelic" about giving food to a bunch of people who have the luxury of a 4-6 month vacation.
    I know your question is rhetorical and this has been beaten to death here of course, but it's not. Many of these people are out there because they're buying "membership" to a social group. They won't go to a food bank because they don't want membership to the poor/downtrodden group. It's ultimately something they do for themselves.

    That said, there are a bunch of good people put there with good intentions - but there's also a ton of people out trying to buy friends while also bringing out/fostering the worst in the hiking community.

  5. #5

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    How do you get the word out to the people doing the hiker feeds? I doubt they frequent this site, or the ATC site.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gpburdelljr View Post
    How do you get the word out to the people doing the hiker feeds? I doubt they frequent this site, or the ATC site.
    Where do they frequent, then?

    If you don't like TM, don't accept it.

    If you want to do away with TM, get over yourself.

    The AT crosses PUBLIC roadways. The AT is PUBLIC. If a member of the PUBLIC wants to try to hand out free food on a PUBLIC roadway or a PUBLIC trail, what police force do you belong to and what law are you trying to enforce by quashing TM?

    Is TM bad for the trail? If it's done at a PUBLIC road crossing, the freaking VEHICLES going by without doing TM do FAR more damage to the immediate environment. And, far longer lasting damage. How about you do away with the roads?

    Honestly, if people can't get over the fact that at a PUBLIC roadway crossing a PUBLIC trail some member of the PUBLIC wants to hand out food, then maybe THOSE people are the folks with nothing better to do and should be the ones volunteering at a soup kitchen. I would bet that those complaining and making that suggestion are being disingenuous and not doing it themselves...

    If folks are complaining that TM infringes on their aesthetic image of the AT...at a roadway...may I suggest a more remote trail that doesn't intersect public roadways?

    Honestly, it is SO much ado over so LITTLE as to be over nothing. Seriously.

    JMHO. YMMV. DGYPIAB. EES. HYOH.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by SWODaddy View Post
    I know your question is rhetorical and this has been beaten to death here of course, but it's not. Many of these people are out there because they're buying "membership" to a social group. They won't go to a food bank because they don't want membership to the poor/downtrodden group. It's ultimately something they do for themselves.

    That said, there are a bunch of good people put there with good intentions - but there's also a ton of people out trying to buy friends while also bringing out/fostering the worst in the hiking community.

    That highlighted comment was far more insightful than anything I expected to read on this thread.
    Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by gpburdelljr View Post
    How do you get the word out to the people doing the hiker feeds? I doubt they frequent this site, or the ATC site.
    Any of the half dozen "Class Of" AT pages on Facebook. Come every spring, literally hundreds of couch hikers are tripping over themselves to find out where to provide food at crossings so they can worship thru hikers.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareBear View Post
    Where do they frequent, then?

    If you don't like TM, don't accept it.

    If you want to do away with TM, get over yourself.

    The AT crosses PUBLIC roadways. The AT is PUBLIC. If a member of the PUBLIC wants to try to hand out free food on a PUBLIC roadway or a PUBLIC trail, what police force do you belong to and what law are you trying to enforce by quashing TM?

    Is TM bad for the trail? If it's done at a PUBLIC road crossing, the freaking VEHICLES going by without doing TM do FAR more damage to the immediate environment. And, far longer lasting damage. How about you do away with the roads?

    Honestly, if people can't get over the fact that at a PUBLIC roadway crossing a PUBLIC trail some member of the PUBLIC wants to hand out food, then maybe THOSE people are the folks with nothing better to do and should be the ones volunteering at a soup kitchen. I would bet that those complaining and making that suggestion are being disingenuous and not doing it themselves...

    If folks are complaining that TM infringes on their aesthetic image of the AT...at a roadway...may I suggest a more remote trail that doesn't intersect public roadways?

    Honestly, it is SO much ado over so LITTLE as to be over nothing. Seriously.

    JMHO. YMMV. DGYPIAB. EES. HYOH.
    Good morning Scarebear, thank you for contributing the opposing viewpoint and demonstrating it's radical devotion.

    First let's begin with the AT Conservancy ruling which has stated that "trail magic is bad for the trail and out of hand" this from Laurie Potteiger as you can find in the summer edition of the AT Long Distance Hiker Assoc. Newsletter.

    Second, with all due respect and in IMHO the notion that folks who disagree with magic have to "get over themselves" is frankly rude and perhaps best captures the in your face intrusiveness of the practice and its practitioners.

    Third, the AT is a "continuous" footpath and doesn't end and begin again thousands of times in places where anything goes as a result. The notion that while hiking you have to ignore things or engage in numerous embarrassing and awkward social situations where you refuse the advances of strangers is a description of why I leave the city for the country as much as I can.

    Finally, again here we find the suggestion that if hikers don't like the exploding and new phenom of hiker feeds and magic that we go somewhere else and that's just mean and wrongheaded and not in keeping with the original purpose of the whole trail system. I've heard the arguments that old Benton MacKaye intended the trail to be social and wanted a party in the woods published in the new Backpacker and am reminded of how every time theirs a genocide or ethnic cleansing somewhere sooner or later some hate monger trots out Darwin and twists his ideas into a rationale for doing the wrong thing too and shouts it's just the survival of the fittest! Silly.

    In closing I'd like to say again thank you for your viewpoint and argument for what at face seems generosity but if people want to do good then why not do the right thing? The much ado about nothing bit seems to me to be coming from folks who refuse to accept the ruling of the only real authority out there - the ATC - and just want to keep using the trail in whatever way they see fit. (I'd like to ride a bike on it why not ignore me and get over it when I do or get out my way?) Let's be honest - doing trail magic isn't hiking. Throwing parties isn't hiking. The trail is for hiking and while meant to be social that social intent was meant for camaraderie among hikers hiking the trail.

    Last but not least I'm dying to know what all those letters mean. That's a lot of slogans! Thanks

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareBear View Post
    Where do they frequent, then?

    The AT crosses PUBLIC roadways. The AT is PUBLIC. If a member of the PUBLIC wants to try to hand out free food on a PUBLIC roadway or a PUBLIC trail, what police force do you belong to and what law are you trying to enforce by quashing TM?
    To answer this question, beyond the issue of feedings not being trail magic by definition, the laws being questioned can be several. From complete prohibition of offering food to the public in certain areas to health standards that likely are not being observed when offering food to the public, to required permits for operating a business/charitable event on public land.

    It would be nice to think we don't need these regulations, however parking several vehicles and impeding traffic on narrow access roads, litter, food detritus left behind and habituation of local animals, sanitary facilities for a good number of people over a day, weekend, or several weekends, and not the least of concerns norovirus that is easily spread at these hubs are a concern. This is the reason for regulations. That the laws may not be enforced is more an issue of awareness and manpower for the agencies responsible for enforcing them.

    Perhaps that answers the question.

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    One thing about TM is you can do it yourself, you can give person to person and don't need a corporate like structure to do it. Food banks, you are sort of a cog in the wheel and there is not so much the person to person connection. The homeless person is not thinking of that on a person to person level, but he is going to the food bank and it's a food bank to person level. It really is a more pure form of giving, more like it's suppose to be and much more satisfying of the heart. (And yes i have personally bought food for homeless). The AT is a great place to learn about human kindness, and unexpectedly getting back more then you gave in terms of the story and the thankful hearts, as the AT for the thru hikers is a great lesson of receiving what is freely offered.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchild View Post
    One thing about TM is you can do it yourself, you can give person to person and don't need a corporate like structure to do it. Food banks, you are sort of a cog in the wheel and there is not so much the person to person connection. The homeless person is not thinking of that on a person to person level, but he is going to the food bank and it's a food bank to person level. It really is a more pure form of giving, more like it's suppose to be and much more satisfying of the heart. (And yes i have personally bought food for homeless). The AT is a great place to learn about human kindness, and unexpectedly getting back more then you gave in terms of the story and the thankful hearts, as the AT for the thru hikers is a great lesson of receiving what is freely offered.
    Comparing a through hiker to a person who relies on a food bank? Really - in what world do you live? You do realize that you're perfectly illustrating the point that the people doing these hiker feeds generally do it for selfish motives ("purer form of giving", "much more satisfying of the heart" - what a load of BS).

    Your are free to spend your resources as you see fit, but to even compare the food insecurity of a thru hiker at a hiker feed to an individual or family that relies on food banks is really just laughable. You also should educate yourself as to how food banks work and who uses them. The people who rely are food banks are more likely to be your neighbors (including military families) than a homeless person at a soup kitchen. If you are really interested in a purer form of giving, I suggest you donate to a food bank and then volunteer at the local level where the food is distributed.

  13. #13
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    I really don't know what the heck you guys are talking about. While I may agree with you that coolers left on the trail that end up full of trash are a bad thing, the organized TM that I experienced during my thru was in a large parking lots and did not impede traffic and (with one exception) did not cause a hiker traffic jams. If you don't like the AT culture then go hike somewhere else. I agree that some sort of limits do need to be set to protect the trail but the so-called hiker feeds wouldn't be on my short list. While I didn't rely on TM to complete my hike (there is no way that one could) it was appreciated when I got it. You folks need to get over yourselves. You do not like thru hikers. Plain and simple. Thru hikers are not going anywhere except to Maine (or Georgia).

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    Quote Originally Posted by KDogg View Post
    I really don't know what the heck you guys are talking about. While I may agree with you that coolers left on the trail that end up full of trash are a bad thing, the organized TM that I experienced during my thru was in a large parking lots and did not impede traffic and (with one exception) did not cause a hiker traffic jams. If you don't like the AT culture then go hike somewhere else. I agree that some sort of limits do need to be set to protect the trail but the so-called hiker feeds wouldn't be on my short list. While I didn't rely on TM to complete my hike (there is no way that one could) it was appreciated when I got it. You folks need to get over yourselves. You do not like thru hikers. Plain and simple. Thru hikers are not going anywhere except to Maine (or Georgia).
    You don't get out much apparently. It's gotten impossible to go hike a trail anywhere without running into some facebook dumb arse wanting to have a party and buy friends for the afternoon by handing out free food. As I've pointed out before it's happening even in the middle of the Sierra on the JMT by organized groups.

    The leader of the Long Trail Facebook group even organize them himself. And of course the new Facebook hikers lap it up because it makes them feel like they're part of a trail culture, with all their new facebook friends.

    This is a problem way bigger than AT.

    The problem is....its growing unchecked...rapidly
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 09-18-2017 at 12:00.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareBear View Post
    Where do they frequent, then?

    If you don't like TM, don't accept it.

    If you want to do away with TM, get over yourself.

    The AT crosses PUBLIC roadways. The AT is PUBLIC. If a member of the PUBLIC wants to try to hand out free food on a PUBLIC roadway or a PUBLIC trail, what police force do you belong to and what law are you trying to enforce by quashing TM?

    Is TM bad for the trail? If it's done at a PUBLIC road crossing, the freaking VEHICLES going by without doing TM do FAR more damage to the immediate environment. And, far longer lasting damage. How about you do away with the roads?

    Honestly, if people can't get over the fact that at a PUBLIC roadway crossing a PUBLIC trail some member of the PUBLIC wants to hand out food, then maybe THOSE people are the folks with nothing better to do and should be the ones volunteering at a soup kitchen. I would bet that those complaining and making that suggestion are being disingenuous and not doing it themselves...

    If folks are complaining that TM infringes on their aesthetic image of the AT...at a roadway...may I suggest a more remote trail that doesn't intersect public roadways?

    Honestly, it is SO much ado over so LITTLE as to be over nothing. Seriously.

    JMHO. YMMV. DGYPIAB. EES. HYOH.
    That would be lovely, if in fact it was limited to public road crossings. Have you been on the AT lately? The parties aren't just at the public road crossings. They're at the shelters, the campgrounds, certain hostels, an entire town that the trail goes through. I had to plan my start date around the Trail Days party, I had to adjust my hike to avoid staying within three miles of certain road crossings. It's not just a matter of not accepting trail magic and hiking my own hike. It's a matter of, less of the trail is available to me for a vaguely peaceful and quiet walk in the woods. Turning down trail magic doesn't help me sleep at night, when some trail "magician" hikes in a few cases of beer, and I have to listen to "baby's first beer" noise until midnight.

    How about you hike your own hike, but don't make me hike your (noisy, drunken, litter filled, trail destroying) hike? I'm not going to triple my travel costs and choose another trail. I do volunteer with the elderly and homeless. So stop with calling us liars, when we point out that basic fact that you're patting yourself on the back and congratulating yourselves for feeding people on vacation. People in this thread and others have told you, this behavior has impacted, and continues to impact our hike, and you flat out continue to ignore everyone who doesn't agree with you, and proceed to tell us "it's not a problem, because I say so." You piss on us, tell us it's rain, and expect us to believe you?
    Last edited by Puddlefish; 09-18-2017 at 10:31.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zea View Post
    I like the last line, about volunteering at a food bank instead.
    I've always wondered what is so "angelic" about giving food to a bunch of people who have the luxury of a 4-6 month vacation. I think the little old lady struggling on social security could use the generosity a little bit more.
    With that race-to-the-bottom logic, none of us should even be on this website.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KDogg View Post
    If you don't like the AT culture then go hike somewhere else.
    So AT culture is now Facebook advertised parties with gas stoves, hot dogs, coolers of beer thrown around in the woods, and receiving gifts from people who have no intentions of hiking and may never have actually set foot on the trail?

    The ATC appears to be making the point that the original purpose of the trail was for hiking, and these "magic shows" are not only negatively impacting the experience of a portion of those who are on the trail for the purpose it was created, but also physically harming the trail itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by AllDownhillFromHere
    With that race-to-the-bottom logic, none of us should even be on this website.
    I'm not sure I really understand the point you're attempting to make, but this is not a "Hiker Angel" website, we don't pretend and are not praised for doing something "good" by being here. Handing out hot dogs to a bunch of people who are on vacation and calling yourself an angel is odd at best.

  18. #18
    Registered User Venchka's Avatar
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    The quantity of TM is inversely proportional to the distance from either ocean bordering the USA. Throw in 40 miles of bad road beyond the pavement and TM is reduced to Zero.
    Just the way I liked it.
    Wayne


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  19. #19
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    Default What is traail magic and is it always bad??

    Well Trail Magic can come many forms! Are all of them bad?. This weekend I'm in Gorham NH near the Barn and there is a thru hiker hitching to Walmart round trip from where he was 7 miles on a busy busy road. He needs to go to Wally land because frankly his budget can't afford Cumberland farms as well as what he needs isn't available there. You see the next stop going North would be Andover a few days north. I suppose you could argue that it's part of the trail experience for him to walk to walmart and back. Which in my opinion would be a ridiculous argument since he could get hurt easier that way than walking thru the notch!. And which one of us that has been there would want a 7 mile road walk!
    So I guess it was evil of me to give him a ride and I did damage to the trail huh? Or perhaps that isn't trail magic. Well when the shoe was on the other foot for me it sure felt like trail magic. Also, just because the ATC is the ATC and does a lot of great things doesn't mean they are always right!

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by energier View Post
    Well Trail Magic can come many forms! Are all of them bad?. This weekend I'm in Gorham NH near the Barn and there is a thru hiker hitching to Walmart round trip from where he was 7 miles on a busy busy road. He needs to go to Wally land because frankly his budget can't afford Cumberland farms as well as what he needs isn't available there. You see the next stop going North would be Andover a few days north. I suppose you could argue that it's part of the trail experience for him to walk to walmart and back. Which in my opinion would be a ridiculous argument since he could get hurt easier that way than walking thru the notch!. And which one of us that has been there would want a 7 mile road walk!
    So I guess it was evil of me to give him a ride and I did damage to the trail huh? Or perhaps that isn't trail magic. Well when the shoe was on the other foot for me it sure felt like trail magic. Also, just because the ATC is the ATC and does a lot of great things doesn't mean they are always right!
    If you had bothered to follow the link to the ATC link about Trail Magic, and once following said link had actually read it, then you would know that the ATC considers giving a hitchhiking hiker a ride to re supply is considered true Trail Magic and is a good thing.

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