Awesome new info on TRAIL MAGIC from ATC!

[MuddyWaters]

Nothing wrong with trail magic.

Everything wrong with hiker feeds by hiker groupies, on the trail

If feeds even took place off trail corridor on private property, no one would care. Other than still attract lots of people who just want to party, socialize. Not hike. Crowding trail with such people.

[kibs]

Booo....humbug!!

[Traffic Jam]

Good morning Scarebear, thank you for contributing the opposing viewpoint and demonstrating it's radical devotion.

First let's begin with the AT Conservancy ruling which has stated that "trail magic is bad for the trail and out of hand" this from Laurie Potteiger as you can find in the summer edition of the AT Long Distance Hiker Assoc. Newsletter.

Second, with all due respect and in IMHO the notion that folks who disagree with magic have to "get over themselves" is frankly rude and perhaps best captures the in your face intrusiveness of the practice and its practitioners.

Third, the AT is a "continuous" footpath and doesn't end and begin again thousands of times in places where anything goes as a result. The notion that while hiking you have to ignore things or engage in numerous embarrassing and awkward social situations where you refuse the advances of strangers is a description of why I leave the city for the country as much as I can.

Finally, again here we find the suggestion that if hikers don't like the exploding and new phenom of hiker feeds and magic that we go somewhere else and that's just mean and wrongheaded and not in keeping with the original purpose of the whole trail system. I've heard the arguments that old Benton MacKaye intended the trail to be social and wanted a party in the woods published in the new Backpacker and am reminded of how every time theirs a genocide or ethnic cleansing somewhere sooner or later some hate monger trots out Darwin and twists his ideas into a rationale for doing the wrong thing too and shouts it's just the survival of the fittest! Silly.

In closing I'd like to say again thank you for your viewpoint and argument for what at face seems generosity but if people want to do good then why not do the right thing? The much ado about nothing bit seems to me to be coming from folks who refuse to accept the ruling of the only real authority out there - the ATC - and just want to keep using the trail in whatever way they see fit. (I'd like to ride a bike on it why not ignore me and get over it when I do or get out my way?) Let's be honest - doing trail magic isn't hiking. Throwing parties isn't hiking. The trail is for hiking and while meant to be social that social intent was meant for camaraderie among hikers hiking the trail.

Last but not least I'm dying to know what all those letters mean. That's a lot of slogans! Thanks

YMMV is my favorite...You Make Me Vomit.

(Your Mileage May Vary)

[Mr. Bumpy]

Bet ya can't wait until this crew shows up on McAfee Knob

https://thetrek.co/appalachian-trail...g-trail-magic/

[rickb]

I like the last line, about volunteering at a food bank instead.

That's one (small) part I didn't like.

There is absolutely nothing with the motivations of people looking to make human connections, and like it or not the TRADITION of helping/feeding thru hikers has become one way for some to do so.

To demean them as groupies or buying friends is just plain wrong -- even if you agree with the ATC position. Seriously, that has to stop.

Wanting to make connections is good, and setting up a comparison with more noble acts of charity is just plain stupid. Is the person who plants flowers to beautify a traffic circle some how misguided because he is not planting wheat to feed the hungry? Of course not.

Some of you need to get a clue. If there is a problem -- and the ATC's thoughtful position on that seems to make a great deal of sense -- it is not with the motivation or values of those looking to make connections with hikers and share their generosity with them.

[NJdreamer]

Well Trail Magic can come many forms! Are all of them bad?. This weekend I'm in Gorham NH near the Barn and there is a thru hiker hitching to Walmart round trip from where he was 7 miles on a busy busy road. He needs to go to Wally land because frankly his budget can't afford Cumberland farms as well as what he needs isn't available there. You see the next stop going North would be Andover a few days north. I suppose you could argue that it's part of the trail experience for him to walk to walmart and back. Which in my opinion would be a ridiculous argument since he could get hurt easier that way than walking thru the notch!. And which one of us that has been there would want a 7 mile road walk!
So I guess it was evil of me to give him a ride and I did damage to the trail huh? Or perhaps that isn't trail magic. Well when the shoe was on the other foot for me it sure felt like trail magic. Also, just because the ATC is the ATC and does a lot of great things doesn't mean they are always right!

Look again -- the ATC still encourages the TM you did.
I had read the earlier ATC article about TM and just read this latest article. I never understood the issue until I hiked in NY on the AT. The water sources were dry, and lots of water was left by Trail Angels, which was great. However, there were also places with lots of trash, including a folding table, chairs, cooler and lots of trash. It was really awful, and I can't see any of us wanting to clean up after someone else's party.

The article linked does note that the help you gave the hiker was on the good end of TM (on his or her behalf, thank you!!!), and they encourage this type of TM, just not the type ending up with trash on the trail, and harm to the trail itself.

[Emerson Bigills]

I think this thread resurfaces about once a month. It's pretty simple, clean up anything you might take to the trail or trailhead. LNT. As for the hate of giving food or water to thru-hikers, I saw some of it and if it was handled with LNT in mind, there was nothing wrong with it in my mind. I certainly appreciated it when I got it. Leave it to an internet message board to stir up a mob against doing something for people who appreciate it and asking nothing in return. Most of the important things in life we learned in kindergarten..... clean up after yourself.

As for the ATC position, I'm sure they have to say this. They can't control it. Maybe if they want to help hikers on the trail they might leave their regional office in Boiling Springs and look for a camping site in that 18 mile stretch that only offers up a field next to a very active railroad track. If this was in some remote area, I could understand, but the ATC Regional Office is within rock throwing distance. Not much influence in that area, huh? Hey, I like the ATC, good folks and a great trail, but they sometimes focus on stuff that makes you wonder if they "get it".

[MuddyWaters]

Look again -- the ATC still encourages the TM you did.
I had read the earlier ATC article about TM and just read this latest article. I never understood the issue until I hiked in NY on the AT. The water sources were dry, and lots of water was left by Trail Angels, which was great. However, there were also places with lots of trash, including a folding table, chairs, cooler and lots of trash. It was really awful, and I can't see any of us wanting to clean up after someone else's party.

The article linked does note that the help you gave the hiker was on the good end of TM (on his or her behalf, thank you!!!), and they encourage this type of TM, just not the type ending up with trash on the trail, and harm to the trail itself.

Its one thing to depend on trail angel water if its needed.....like a 40 mile dry stretch.

But even a 25 mile dry stretch...doesnt....require....someone ....leaving ...you ....water.

Unless its sealed dasani bottles or such, how you know it wasnt left by a sicko? You could be poisioned, or have someone play a joke with laxative like epsom salts in water. Water found at a road crossing must be safe to drink...right? Umm...umm..no.

When I see milk jugs of water, etc, I just shake my head in disbelief. Unless theres a couple pallets of them or such....sealed...with labels.....which Ive happened on before. Funny thing about that instance...it wasnt even necessary. No idea what some idiot was thinking. " Lets see, Ive got too much money. How can I waste some?"

[Curious G]

That's one (small) part I didn't like.

There is absolutely nothing with the motivations of people looking to make human connections, and like it or not the TRADITION of helping/feeding thru hikers has become one way for some to do so.

To demean them as groupies or buying friends is just plain wrong -- even if you agree with the ATC position. Seriously, that has to stop.

Wanting to make connections is good, and setting up a comparison with more noble acts of charity is just plain stupid. Is the person who plants flowers to beautify a traffic circle some how misguided because he is not planting wheat to feed the hungry? Of course not.

Some of you need to get a clue. If there is a problem -- and the ATC's thoughtful position on that seems to make a great deal of sense -- it is not with the motivation or values of those looking to make connections with hikers and share their generosity with them.

Make a human connection? Isn't that what Tinder and Christian Mingle are for?

[Starchild]

Unless its sealed dasani bottles or such, how you know it wasnt left by a sicko? You could be poisioned, or have someone play a joke with laxative like epsom salts in water. Water found at a road crossing must be safe to drink...right? Umm...umm..no.

How do you know that the spring had not been contaminated by someone cleaning their diarrhea after contracting Nora virus or other acts? You don't and you take you chances. Just like the jugs left.

[MuddyWaters]

How do you know that the spring had not been contaminated by someone cleaning their diarrhea after contracting Nora virus or other acts? You don't and you take you chances. Just like the jugs left.

I use prudence with selecting safe sources, and I treat anyway.
So no, its really nothing like getting water from a milk jug on side of road....

[tdoczi]

Wanting to make connections is good, and setting up a comparison with more noble acts of charity is just plain stupid.

i dont think its about comparing two acts of charity and saying which is nobler... i think its recognizing that one is not in any way shape or form an act of charity at all, but that it is something else entirely dressed up as an act of charity.

and yes, criticizing people who engage in a fake act of "charity" for their own selfish purposes is definitely perfectly fai game in my mind and does not "have to stop."

[George]

lots of good logic in the ATC guidelines - it will be ignored, humans are not logical - maybe if we were all Klingons??………...

[ScareBear]

That would be lovely, if in fact it was limited to public road crossings. Have you been on the AT lately? The parties aren't just at the public road crossings. They're at the shelters, the campgrounds, certain hostels, an entire town that the trail goes through. I had to plan my start date around the Trail Days party, I had to adjust my hike to avoid staying within three miles of certain road crossings. It's not just a matter of not accepting trail magic and hiking my own hike. It's a matter of, less of the trail is available to me for a vaguely peaceful and quiet walk in the woods. Turning down trail magic doesn't help me sleep at night, when some trail "magician" hikes in a few cases of beer, and I have to listen to "baby's first beer" noise until midnight.

How about you hike your own hike, but don't make me hike your (noisy, drunken, litter filled, trail destroying) hike? I'm not going to triple my travel costs and choose another trail. I do volunteer with the elderly and homeless. So stop with calling us liars, when we point out that basic fact that you're patting yourself on the back and congratulating yourselves for feeding people on vacation. People in this thread and others have told you, this behavior has impacted, and continues to impact our hike, and you flat out continue to ignore everyone who doesn't agree with you, and proceed to tell us "it's not a problem, because I say so." You piss on us, tell us it's rain, and expect us to believe you?

You had to plan your hike so as to avoid not hiking through Damascus during Trail Days? Really?

You have to avoid certain road crossings by THREE MILES? Seriously? That's one hell of a traffic jam....

I am sorry that your hypersensitivity to extremely small percentages of the AT is harshing your hike buzz. You definitely need a more remote trail, IMHO.

I hike the AT. Been doing it for some years. I've been on it four times this year in three different states. I rarely saw trash on the trail itself. When I did it was likely from a single hiker because it was only a single item. Yeah, I picked them up. Yeah, that's only a hundred miles or so. About 5 percent of the trail. No problems to report. The only TM I saw was at road crossings and atop Max Patch. No litter involved. Somebody did bring a couple of cases of beer up to the Patch, but it was easy enough to avoid and avoid their noises. I didn't have to travel far. About 100 yards was fine. But, that's because the wind was blowing. If it was calm, I might have had to hike 200 yards. 1/8th mile. All the miles this year are on pretty heavily traveled portions and were during a period of and just after the main "bubble". Heading back in a couple weeks but don't really expect to find much difference. In fact, I thought the TM this year was much less than '15 or '14 in NC and TN....but that's just my actual first-hand observations.

Is there more trash elsewhere than I am seeing? Possibly. Are shelters a freaking pigsty so that I really don't give a gosh darn because the only reason for me to EVER stop at one is to crap or get water? Yep. Do I care if people are partying at them? Nope. Do I care if shelters exist? Well....I suppose in an emergency they serve a purpose. And, I really do appreciate the latrines. And, they usually have a good water source. But, that's it. Why? Because I prefer solitude to humanity when I am on the AT. And, it is NEVER difficult to avoid humanity on the AT. You just have to want to. It might take a slight bit of extra effort. So does just getting on the AT. So what?

And, more to the question, what does drunken revelry have to do with TM? Is it TM that makes you avoid certain road crossings by three miles? If it isn't TM, then it isn't relevant to the discussion. That's a different topic and one that we likely agree upon...

Hey, it might be misting slightly off and on, but I gotta say, unless you are hydrophobic, it aint a thunderstorm.

I am sorry you are so sensitive to the issue. But, I think you will find in life that things are designed and maintained to satisfy the general needs, not the isolated hyperfocused needs of a very few. Understanding that can help you avoid being terribly disappointed, such as it seems you were by your hike. At least you were smart enough to know your limitations and plan around them.

[Puddlefish]

You had to plan your hike so as to avoid not hiking through Damascus during Trail Days? Really?

You have to avoid certain road crossings by THREE MILES? Seriously? That's one hell of a traffic jam....

I am sorry that your hypersensitivity to extremely small percentages of the AT is harshing your hike buzz. You definitely need a more remote trail, IMHO.

I hike the AT. Been doing it for some years. I've been on it four times this year in three different states. I rarely saw trash on the trail itself. When I did it was likely from a single hiker because it was only a single item. Yeah, I picked them up. Yeah, that's only a hundred miles or so. About 5 percent of the trail. No problems to report. The only TM I saw was at road crossings and atop Max Patch. No litter involved. Somebody did bring a couple of cases of beer up to the Patch, but it was easy enough to avoid and avoid their noises. I didn't have to travel far. About 100 yards was fine. But, that's because the wind was blowing. If it was calm, I might have had to hike 200 yards. 1/8th mile. All the miles this year are on pretty heavily traveled portions and were during a period of and just after the main "bubble". Heading back in a couple weeks but don't really expect to find much difference. In fact, I thought the TM this year was much less than '15 or '14 in NC and TN....but that's just my actual first-hand observations.

Is there more trash elsewhere than I am seeing? Possibly. Are shelters a freaking pigsty so that I really don't give a gosh darn because the only reason for me to EVER stop at one is to crap or get water? Yep. Do I care if people are partying at them? Nope. Do I care if shelters exist? Well....I suppose in an emergency they serve a purpose. And, I really do appreciate the latrines. And, they usually have a good water source. But, that's it. Why? Because I prefer solitude to humanity when I am on the AT. And, it is NEVER difficult to avoid humanity on the AT. You just have to want to. It might take a slight bit of extra effort. So does just getting on the AT. So what?

And, more to the question, what does drunken revelry have to do with TM? Is it TM that makes you avoid certain road crossings by three miles? If it isn't TM, then it isn't relevant to the discussion. That's a different topic and one that we likely agree upon...

Hey, it might be misting slightly off and on, but I gotta say, unless you are hydrophobic, it aint a thunderstorm.

I am sorry you are so sensitive to the issue. But, I think you will find in life that things are designed and maintained to satisfy the general needs, not the isolated hyperfocused needs of a very few. Understanding that can help you avoid being terribly disappointed, such as it seems you were by your hike. At least you were smart enough to know your limitations and plan around them.

Apparently, you're incapable of comprehension, and understanding context. My very first sentence stated that people aren't limiting the hiker feeds and organized trail magic to the road crossings.

I hiked from Springer to Bland, VA. I delayed my original start date by one week to avoid Damascus at party time. I saw at least a dozen unattended coolers, with scraps of waste littering the area around them. I saw bags of "hike out your trash" trail magic, that never got hiked out, which did nothing but attract wildlife to camping areas. Half empty bags of rotting apples on picnic tables. I've told a number of specific stories in other threads on this topic as well.

People are lazy, if a shelter/campground is within two or three miles of a road, there's a decent chance some overly helpful idiot will hike in and distribute food or beer. Some of them hang around, and hike out everyone's trash, some of them just leave crap at the shelters and hike back out. It was more of a problem, for me, early in my hike, before I got my trail legs. Once I got in shape, I had the ability to just walk a few extra miles to avoid such places. I'm not ancient, but I'm not young. Yeah, I pretty much need my sleep after a month of hiking full days.

It has little to do with me being sensitive, despite your clumsy insults. I don't want the trail to be a dive bar, I don't want the wildlife on the trail to be negatively impacted. If I want to go to a dive bar, I'll just go to a dive bar.

You're apparently a selfish party hard boy, who feels that your precious freedoms are being threatened by the mean mean people who want to preserve the trail as a wilderness experience... or maybe not. How about I stop psychoanalyzing you, and you stop psychoanalyzing me, because I assure you, that you're not good at it.

[rickb]

i dont think its about comparing two acts of charity and saying which is nobler... i think its recognizing that one is not in any way shape or form an act of charity at all, but that it is something else entirely dressed up as an act of charity.

Agreed -- not charity in any way.

Friendly outreach.

It might not be best for the Trail -- the ATC articulated this nicely -- but when we start condemning people for their kindness and impuning their motivation as seems to be the fashion right now, we do the spirt of the AT a great disservice.

[Alligator]

Agreed -- not charity in any way.

Friendly outreach.

It might not be best for the Trail -- the ATC articulated this nicely -- but when we start condemning people for their kindness and impuning their motivation as seems to be the fashion right now, we do the spirt of the AT a great disservice.

I agree with you Rick, people are painting with too broad a brush as far as motivation.

What we have here is a group of people who have an interest in the trail and the trail community. One thing we can look to do is redirect this goodwill in ways that have less detrimental effects. If people are interested in meeting thruhikers, consider volunteering for trail work with a club during peak thruhiker passage (the bubble). It's easy to strike up a conversion about trail conditions, when they started, got any pressing medical issues, got a gear blowout. Hey you might even be able to get a little reverse trail magic, and slip the thru a shovel or a paint brush. Thruhikers have gone out on trail maintenance after Trail Days, Bob Peoples comes to mind. Work with a club and you get to meet people with a similar interest.

[tdoczi]

Agreed -- not charity in any way.

Friendly outreach.

It might not be best for the Trail -- the ATC articulated this nicely -- but when we start condemning people for their kindness and impuning their motivation as seems to be the fashion right now, we do the spirt of the AT a great disservice.

my parting thought is this-

others and myself have used to word "groupie" in this thread and in another.

i think we should all ruminate on what this word means, minus the sexual connotations, and how it applies here. what is the motivation of a "groupie"? why do they waht they do? is that really something in any way positive, admirable or to be encouraged or condoned?

again, minus any and all possible sexual connotations.

to me, a groupie someone who trades something that is wanted in exchange for a temporary (and in my opinion, false) sense of belonging somewhere they do not.

ever see the film almost famous? its informative here i think. in particular, consider whether or not penny lane's description of herself and her friends as "band aids" rather than groupies is legitimate or is it a self delusional and ultimately self harmful description?

to me, "trail magic" (in a narrow sense as we have discussed the negative forms of trail magic here, not ALL trail magic) is used by many people in the same way penny lane uses the band aid explanation.

[MuddyWaters]

Agreed -- not charity in any way.

Friendly outreach.

It might not be best for the Trail -- the ATC articulated this nicely -- but when we start condemning people for their kindness and impuning their motivation as seems to be the fashion right now, we do the spirt of the AT a great disservice.

Yup. No charity involved. People on 6 mo. Vacation arent needy.

When church group does it....they are looking to make contact with someone who might benefit .

When individuals do it, they want to talk to and be around hikers.

Its not about helping hikers or the trail. Its getting what they want, in a fun easy manner.

Which is precisely why these people arent lined up to do trail work instead. Thats work and commitent....not fun socializing.

The ATC actually gets it, ( for a change) and realizes its gotten over the edge, and needs to be curttailed.

Public perception of what the AT is ,is crucial to long term support and survival. When the general population recognizes its a moving frat party.......its doomed. I tend to think its already teetering.

[Alligator]

The both of you, tdoczi and MuddyWaters, are still making assumptions about motivations that simply aren't always true. I have multiple times seen thruhikers say they wanted to give some trail magic back because they had received some and it was a memorable boost or a positive interaction during their hike. Sometimes they are just dropping something off like a cooler or water (not suggesting it's the best idea). They may not want or care for any interaction.

I've seen people of various hiking experience participate in a feed and trail magic, Bob Peoples again.

You guys have never rooted for an individual or team in an exercise, event, competetion that you do not personally participate in? Never cheered for a child's team? The home team? You've never been willing to contribute to the success of such an individual or team?

Never helped somebody out of kindness?

Never talked to a stranger over a common interest and made a friend?

Not everyone is a groupie. Sometimes people are just fans or admirers or simply dreamers. It's not the completely negative picture you guys are painting. It's not supported.

It's ok for community members to be kind to one another. The point the ATC is making is that there are negative consequences to hiker feeds, and that other options are available.