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  1. #121
    Registered User Just Bill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbakwin View Post
    I'm going to acknowledge some culpability here. I think I need to re-assess how & when I accredit the FKT to someone. Once your name is up in lights I guess there's no incentive to provide the documentation. I see this with Joe & also recently with Darcy on the JMT. The day after each of these trips I get calls from journalists who want to know if the FKT is legit. I usually say something like "I don't see any reason to doubt it, but don't have all the info. These things take time." Journalists hate this. I'm thinking in future you don't get your name on the FKT site until ALL your info is out & publicly available for anyone to pick apart. It's easier to put your name up than to take it down, because once it's published in OutsideOnline who cares what the "community" says anymore?
    I think that's the gist of it, or at least a common sense policy easily enforced.

    This offseason I still think it's important to come up with a simple page or two as discussed so there is a clean set of guidelines to point to. (at least for the AT/PCT as discussed).

    Once done- you can back that up from your end by holding off on posting or acknowledging the hike until documentation is provided.

    Honestly probably makes it easier for you too. No pressure to verify, validate, or have an answer by press time.

    "Congrats to so and so on a nice hike, looking forward to hearing the details."

    I'd think some of the actual journalists would appreciate the extra time and space to follow up and do a real story for some of these hikes.

    I have no idea if Gear Junkie had permission to spill Joe's beans before he even had a chance to post that he finished- but that sorta scoop starts a cascade of beating each other to press with junk blog posts that confirm each other. Hell, before Stringbean was down the trail or had a hot meal two or three "media" outlets had already announced his time. At that point even if Joe was going to try to do things right he got swept along as well. Before he had time to shake off the hypothermia and eat a big meal or sleep in his own bed the train had already left the station.

    I'm a realist (on occasion) ... who doesn't want to get recognized for something like this. And when the interview requests come in the pressure is on to capitalize on your five minutes of fame before the ship sails. If you're a jerk to the media folks you're not going to get far. But if everyone (participant, fans, and media) understands the race isn't actually done until the documentation is turned in there will less pressure to tell the tale on the summit.

    In that sense valid FKT's (which Joe may very well be) would probably appreciate a little backing and support from you and your site regarding turning in your documentation before being recognized.
    They can give a quick blurb and promise to follow up when the job is done.

    You're generally pretty messed up, especially the first day or two... so not exactly the time to be doing phone interviews with professional journalists either.
    Get home, calm down, get your story together and share it. No claim until you turn one in.

    The rules protect the hiker... enforcing this policy helps everyone.

    Maybe the runners are used to press and people at the finish line, but hikers are not. It's bad enough walking off a trail after weeks and weeks of moving through the woods for any of us.
    Joe didn't get that chance to complete his hike. Joey did. Hikers know it's not over just because you hit a sign or a trail head. You're in way too deep for a hike to end that abruptly.

    In that sense Joey had a really great gift on this one. He wasn't a headline, so he got to finish for real.
    He sat on the rock and watched the sunrise, hung around for the day at springer. Unwound, soaked it in, and slowly came back to earth.
    He got a chance to say farewell for now to the trail and prepare for re-entry.
    He got to sleep for 22 hours straight. He got to sleep in his own bed and even got to ski.

    He got to actually finish his hike.

  2. #122
    Registered User One Half's Avatar
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    I have eagerly watched these reports all summer. Just as I did in previous years. And other than commenting on Ninja's "hike" last year, I have not commented. But now I feel the need to throw in my 2 cents.

    I do believe if you want someone's "title" you need to do "at least as much" to prove your claim as the previous person. As technology advances, maybe you should do "more." To lay claim to a "record" and then not provide some amount of substantiation is just inexcusable to me. If you feel "slighted" because people won't just "take your word for it," too bad.

    I like the idea of "hammering out" guidelines this "off season - possibly by trail as there are enough differences for differing guidelines.

    If I had more experience I would even volunteer for vetting a claim each year but I do not feel I have enough knowledge to do so.

    Some of the guidelines I might suggest for the AT:

    Self supported absolutely should include packages mailed to yourself, or prepared ahead and mailed out for you at designated times by a "trusted source." Since some places have limits as to how long they will hold a package I feel this would be acceptable. However, the packages must be pre-packed, sealed, labeled and addressed (with postage paid) and sent out by an independent/trusted 3rd party. (I could actually do that much!) This way there would be no question as to whether items were added to help the hiker. Along with this I feel having the person mailing the packages also be allowed to check on tracking to make sure the packages are delivered and to be able to send the hiker a text informing them the package is at the pickup location.

    SPOT or similar - I think everyone should carry some type of live tracking while attempting an FKT and that data should be available in "live time" to 2 or 3 "auditors" who can immediately point out missing "pings" or other issues by texting the hiker. This would allow the hiker to back up their claim with photos or short videos for sections where tracking is difficult or lost. Notes could be made immediately regarding any questionable pings or lack thereof.

    But like I said, I'm not sure I have enough experience to weigh in too much on this.
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  3. #123
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    Really- nothing new needs to be generated.
    More or less it's simply a reprint of the guidelines Matt put out; which are based upon those Scott Williamson put out.
    Nothing has really changed- though the drop box/resupply issues have changed even in the last 4 years somewhat as population and services have grown on the AT.
    In my mind- 'shop as you go' has always been an accepted means of resupply. Cell phone access and one click shopping at Amazon has certainly changed that somewhat and could use some discussion perhaps.

    There are some subtle nuances we could debate on all the Williamson guidelines really- but rather than getting bogged down in minutia I think we simply need to adopt those and go from there.
    I know that Peter and many others involved don't want to discuss super subtle details. At it's heart- the goal is to be open and honest with what you actually did and the community can debate it from there.
    That said: It's still my opinion that the stricter a standard you hold yourself too- the less open to interpretation or debate you leave your hike. Given the relatively minimal or even non-existent advantage you might gain from accepting aid or support I'm not sure why you would put yourself in that situation.

    Or more accurately- these feel like you're strung so thin that each thing begins to feel life and death in the moment. Like your whole hike is in jeopardy because you've missed a meal or you're short a battery. In reality... once the crisis is past you'll be on to the next one and you'll once more regain perspective on that minor item's importance compared to the overall hike. If you have in your mind deeply and firmly that grey areas are not an option... I think that helps you get through the moments of weakness that you would regret later or that may raise questions about your hike. If you're only accepting truly random acts of kindness- might as well figure there won't be any. If you're in such bad shape that it literally has become life or death... then you probably should abort your attempt. 99% of the time the small things that we might debate as violations are little more than conveniences and have a truly small impact on the hike itself.

    One of the things that folks find compelling about Self-Supported or Unsupported trips is the self-reliance factor. You, your pack, the trail. The grayer that gets and the further you bend the technicalities of that idea... the less relevant that becomes. For my part... that's the only reason I take that part seriously. While 'you in the wilderness' certainly doesn't match the reality on a trail like the AT... that's still the idea at the heart of these. The more and more you stray from self-reliance the more you water down this type of trip. From an outside perspective or spectator's point of view; the more it turns into a race from aid station to aid station... and the less interesting it becomes for those of us who appreciate you as a fellow backpacker. Ultimately those like myself will lose interest in what you are doing

    The bigger issue though is documentation.


    We all agree that this is the bigger issue, the bigger slip.
    As much as I have blamed Anish for that; I still admire her hike and what she did. So perhaps best to simply state what she did.
    Heather started out on an FKT... and it was not going well. She struggled, personally with doubts and externally with the trail itself.
    It is very hard to do a speed hike. It is impossible to do one if you are fighting the trail. If you're not in harmony with yourself and the trail then things will fall apart quickly.

    I haven't spoken to Heather personally- so this is simply my opinion.
    At some point Heather made a choice between harmony and the FKT. The clock, the rules, the constraints beat down on you, weigh you down like an overloaded pack. Speed hiking is about flowing with the trail, moving like an animal that belongs there until you do belong there. It's about feeling at home. It is massively, exceedingly difficult to walk away from town and go deep within yourself and the trail with the ball and chain of the FKT constantly tugging you back to reality every time you begin to slip into the hike. If you keep yanking that chain eventually the ball at the end comes shooting back and whacks you in the head.

    Heather cut that chain. Stopped checking maps and miles. Stopped watching the clock. Stopped counting days. When she finished she didn't know how fast she really went until she added it up. Had to call someone to check her math. When she stopped she came back to town where math, dates, clocks and other things are needed. But for a good bit she was truly free, truly at home.

    Heather chose Harmony over the FKT. For what it's worth- I think she made the right choice.
    It was a beautiful and inspirational hike. I really wish she would have told the story... but maybe she hasn't sorted it out yet to tell it.

    The simple fact remains though; Anish made a choice. It's one many make. Jen made her version of it, but she had Brew to record her efforts.
    Anyone who hikes makes that choice. Finds the line between moving, smelling the roses, pushing yourself, and enjoying your trip and the trail it's on. Every hiker understands harmony if they are lucky.
    Supported hikes have an advantage- they have help. They have the luxury of choosing Harmony. Or as some simply say- I can just run... but we know what they mean.
    Self-supported or unsupported hikes have that distinct disadvantage: It's all on you. They also have a greater advantage at the end: It's all on you.

    Matt made a choice too. He looked down at that ball and chain. Looked at it pretty hard. He studied it, dealt with it, hiked with it. Built himself a special pack and system around it.
    Then he picked up the ball and found a way to shove it in his pack.

    It slowed him down. "Fast, Light and Free" Not 100% no. The FKT comes with some burdens, some responsibilities, some record keeping. Those take time, energy and effort.
    They snap you back, get in the way. They stop it from being just a race. It is much harder than many realize.

    If somebody wants to set a personal best... to chuck it all and rip one off... Nothing is stopping you. The trail is waiting. I'll gladly read your tale, encourage you, and cheer you on.

    If somebody wants to claim the Fastest Known Time on a long trail. It's a record. Not a personal best.
    Matt found harmony in speed hiking. Then he found a way to find harmony with the burden of documenting it.
    Going to the edge of what's possible without getting lost, and finding a way to record it to share it.

    It's very difficult... but that's why it's special.
    It's not your personal best, a good story at a bar, or a nice thing to share at a TED talk.
    It is a record. A recording. A factual exploration of the limits of what we can do.
    I deeply admire what Heather did, to find harmony with oneself and the trail through the hike.

    Perhaps this is where I lose those of you I haven't lost already...
    Matt went one step further. Deeper. He achieved something more.
    Something he tried hard to put into words and struggles to pass on.
    You could dismiss it as Spiritual bunk, or overly romantic notions. Or just my annoying yakking on... But I think that most who do this stuff understand.
    It's not just a race. The clock isn't very important. It's not hard for me to compare it to a vision quest, a sun dance, some native ceremony or even completely non-religious spiritual discipline.

    Matt doesn't bitch so his name stays on the leaderboard and I don't nitpick to stop folks from claiming a hike.

    Anishinabee; there's one more step you missed following this trail. Twas a beautiful hike, but not truly a record.
    Though plenty of trails lead to the center if you found another way to master the clock.

    For those who do want to follow this path...

    It's a real shame to set out on one of these only to find out it was just a race.
    That all that pain and suffering boiled down to some GPS pings and a clock that maybe you can scrap together into some sorta line of dots on a map.
    I'm truly sorry you went through all that trouble just for that. You coulda stayed home and run some Ultra's. More money in that for sure. Better places to race or beat yourself up.

    And if that's all you were looking for... then I echo the comments many of your fellow hikers make when they hear about these stunts. "Yawn"

    But if you're looking for something more, if you don't want to cheat yourself out of what's waiting for you... then follow the rules.

    The Rules Protect the Hiker.

    Matt just wants to help folks find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow... there really is one it turns out.

    Joey's a bit fresh off the trail... but no matter how it shakes out regarding the clock or the leaderboard;
    He found what he was looking for too and he'll probably get around to telling the story when he's ready.

    Still only one rule on the trail-
    Mitakuye Oyasin
    Walk in Peace

  4. #124
    Registered User russb's Avatar
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    I disagree. The rules are arbitrary made by those who want certain parameters met. No one has been granted any authority by the hiker universe to be the judge. Some might create an "organization" which then codifies "their rules", but that org cannot stop some other group from creating their own as well. Thus it is just a race against the clock/calendar. As I have stated at an earlier time the "K" is for KNOWN, not proven. These aren't records, they are personal achievements which happen to also include a time associated with them. Personally, I don't give a rodetnts rear whether someone ate a slice of pizza at a trail intersection or bought it in town. Someone did the trail fast... cool. Someone did it faster, but in a different way... cool. It was faster, the other person carried more weight though. Oh ok. Still cool. Doesn't change the fact one was faster, just adds another dimension. In 5 years a trail will be rerouted and the exact same gear and rules will not make the hike/run the same. Someone might do those miles faster, but it was not the same trail... cool.

    This isn't court. Nor should it be. Of course that's my opinion. Someone wants to make up rules to accept whether another person's FKT qualifies? Then that is on them. I don't need it.

  5. #125

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    But that distinction is what separates the supported / unlimited from a self supported trip. If you don't care about the self supported criteria, just focus on the supported FKT.

  6. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by russb View Post
    I disagree. The rules are arbitrary made by those who want certain parameters met. No one has been granted any authority by the hiker universe to be the judge. Some might create an "organization" which then codifies "their rules", but that org cannot stop some other group from creating their own as well. Thus it is just a race against the clock/calendar. As I have stated at an earlier time the "K" is for KNOWN, not proven. These aren't records, they are personal achievements which happen to also include a time associated with them. Personally, I don't give a rodetnts rear whether someone ate a slice of pizza at a trail intersection or bought it in town. Someone did the trail fast... cool. Someone did it faster, but in a different way... cool. It was faster, the other person carried more weight though. Oh ok. Still cool. Doesn't change the fact one was faster, just adds another dimension. In 5 years a trail will be rerouted and the exact same gear and rules will not make the hike/run the same. Someone might do those miles faster, but it was not the same trail... cool.

    This isn't court. Nor should it be. Of course that's my opinion. Someone wants to make up rules to accept whether another person's FKT qualifies? Then that is on them. I don't need it.
    What your missing, is that people arent going after an arbitrary record with arbitrary rules . They go after someone elses record, and need to meet the criteria by which it was ratified by peers.

    You are always free to follow any rule set YOU like.

    The only question is.....will anyone else care about YOUR choice of rules. Compared to previous record holders.

    The answer so far is really, no for self supported. And everybody wants recognition. If not they just keep it all to themselves and never make it public
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 10-12-2017 at 19:14.

  7. #127
    Registered User Just Bill's Avatar
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    To quote Buzz Burrell:
    "These three rules do not 'prove' you have done anything. They just make it easier for a good person to believe you."

    As far as organization... Peter's site qualifies in my book.
    The purpose though is not to create a governing body, but basically a forum to participate in.

    It is 'early days' overall. But the general consensus has been twofold:
    If someone else has come before- then honor and/or improve upon what they have done. IE: when you create a route or set the OKT (only known time or first trip) then you ideally lay down a path for others to follow.
    You document your trip and share it openly with the community at large.

    If your trip is a good one; others will be interested in it and take up that challenge.
    If your trip is not... then your OKT will sit unnoticed.

    When the second trip comes... your effort will be judged in comparison to that which came before it. Ideally you improve, as comparisons are inevitable.
    Maybe you say screw it and go your own way. Maybe others follow, maybe they don't. Maybe a third trip comes and redefines the sport.
    Perhaps an outsider comes in, cheats or messes things up... and something must be done.

    Many here have some familiarity with Rock climbing, which is simply a branch of mountaineering.
    But some thought the specific training on class 5 routes was in and of itself pretty fun.
    So the modern grading system evolved as a way to compare routes.
    Many stylistic nuances were discussed/debated including the use of aid.
    Early pioneers of the sport were often wildly different, but eventually certain aspects won out over others and were generally accepted.
    Some were simple things, some were purely opinion or esoteric concepts that on their face had little relevance.

    Much like these FKT's... the setting for climbing is the natural world. Respect for nature becomes a bigger priority as popularity grows. As impact is seen.
    Some past practices no longer work in a sustainable manner. Sometimes your hobby impacts a larger user group and you must modify your behavior or be run off.

    I'm not sure we are quite at the point where Yvon Chouinard introduced clean climbing... but it's not hard to look ahead and see it.
    Maybe we are still back in the days of Robbins vs Harding. Rules vs a free for all. Win at any cost vs. respect for aesthetic, harmony, and purity in the pursuit.

    Maybe it will implode before it gets that far. Hard to say.

    But not hard to make the parallel.
    Nor is it hard to see that eventually even the hardest drinkers and dirtiest dirtbags of the climbers all came around to doing it right.
    Not that hard to see what was right to begin with when you look back.

    Like I said... let's not get hung up on every nuance or stylistic point we can pound to death.
    All rules are arbitrary... but that doesn't make them meaningless or pointless... or that they can't evolve.

    Right now there is not one clean set to point to. That is the single biggest complaint.
    Nobody truly going for these complains there are rules- only that they are not clean and easy to follow.

    The second biggest complaint- is the lack of documentation.
    Or perhaps more accurately long term- accountability.

    At this point we have very few hikes to discuss.
    If Heather had documented her hike we could debate her style vs. Matt's. We could discuss various trips, modify the rules, debate different things with some context.

    Folks are hung up on the guidelines and rules.
    What is missing though is documented trips that would allow those rules to evolve if needed.

    If you don't document your trip, tell your story, and share what you did:
    On a personal level you can't get any credit for it. Which is fine if you don't want it. Go hike your own hike.
    On a community level though... it's as if your trip doesn't exist.

    All sports take decades of participation to refine. But they all have a way to keep score and discuss what you did when you participated in them.

    It's the fundamental thing at the heart of them all... Basic ground rules, and participation.

    These particular FKT's take place in a sensitive place, at a sensitive time.
    For good or bad- you want to do this on a long trail you need to have an extra level of awareness and respect. These are high profile trips. There is media attention, articles written, people watching.

    Go clean, or go anonymously.
    You can always do a speed hike and not tell anyone. That's truly leave no trace.
    But if you are going to do one and claim it... then you have a responsibility to do it properly.
    No one is forcing anyone to pursue an FKT, to chase an existing record, to hike someone else's hike.
    People are choosing to participate publicly, so they are in turn held responsible publicly.

    All police are is people that other people designate to uphold the values of the community.
    I think it is our responsibility to share those values, and tie them to the FKT itself in order to uphold them.

    It's not court. You don't have to participate. It's a free trail.
    Rules are only around when people refuse to self-police.

    There are no 'leave no trace' police... but it sure is having an impact. It wasn't needed, now it is. Not
    You can lament the loss of the day's there were no rules. Or you can appreciate that to protect what you love, some rules and guidance are often needed.
    FKT's are small, so were hikers. Things change. If this isn't an activity that brings benefit to the community then it shouldn't exist, or will be forced out of existance.
    It can grow, or it can go back to being underground if needed among those who respect the trail. I think that would be a shame.

    Especially while it's relatively new and easy enough to clean up.

  8. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by russb View Post
    I disagree. The rules are arbitrary made by those who want certain parameters met. No one has been granted any authority by the hiker universe to be the judge. Some might create an "organization" which then codifies "their rules", but that org cannot stop some other group from creating their own as well. Thus it is just a race against the clock/calendar. As I have stated at an earlier time the "K" is for KNOWN, not proven. These aren't records, they are personal achievements which happen to also include a time associated with them. Personally, I don't give a rodetnts rear whether someone ate a slice of pizza at a trail intersection or bought it in town. Someone did the trail fast... cool. Someone did it faster, but in a different way... cool. It was faster, the other person carried more weight though. Oh ok. Still cool. Doesn't change the fact one was faster, just adds another dimension. In 5 years a trail will be rerouted and the exact same gear and rules will not make the hike/run the same. Someone might do those miles faster, but it was not the same trail... cool.

    This isn't court. Nor should it be. Of course that's my opinion. Someone wants to make up rules to accept whether another person's FKT qualifies? Then that is on them. I don't need it.

    Right on! ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    Don't let your fears stand in the way of your dreams

  9. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by russb View Post
    I disagree. The rules are arbitrary made by those who want certain parameters met. No one has been granted any authority by the hiker universe to be the judge. Some might create an "organization" which then codifies "their rules", but that org cannot stop some other group from creating their own as well. Thus it is just a race against the clock/calendar. As I have stated at an earlier time the "K" is for KNOWN, not proven. These aren't records, they are personal achievements which happen to also include a time associated with them. Personally, I don't give a rodetnts rear whether someone ate a slice of pizza at a trail intersection or bought it in town. Someone did the trail fast... cool. Someone did it faster, but in a different way... cool. It was faster, the other person carried more weight though. Oh ok. Still cool. Doesn't change the fact one was faster, just adds another dimension. In 5 years a trail will be rerouted and the exact same gear and rules will not make the hike/run the same. Someone might do those miles faster, but it was not the same trail... cool.

    This isn't court. Nor should it be. Of course that's my opinion. Someone wants to make up rules to accept whether another person's FKT qualifies? Then that is on them. I don't need it.
    By this standard, all who post here have the FKT on all of the major long distance trails. Most worthwhile challenges have some baseline standards, one of which is demonstration that what is claimed actually happened. From there the standards can become murky. Basic standards are not something that courts decide, but they are a social contact that we are seeing play out here.

    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"

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  11. #131
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    SB posted SPOT data and a schedule on the FKT Proboards.

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    If I read the String Beans spreadsheet correctly, he averaged 3MPH. How's that get him 2000 miles in 45 days? Am I missing something? Finally some data but cornfusing

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    Quote Originally Posted by chknfngrs View Post
    If I read the String Beans spreadsheet correctly, he averaged 3MPH. How's that get him 2000 miles in 45 days? Am I missing something? Finally some data but cornfusing
    16 hours walkin'
    8 hours sleepin'

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    Quote Originally Posted by quahog13 View Post
    SB posted SPOT data and a schedule on the FKT Proboards.
    I took a look at what SB posted. On one hand, kudos to him for getting some info out there (after six weeks, I just about gave up). On the other hand, there's little info on the self-supported aspect (i.e. maildrops, resupply logistics, etc.). Really not trying to belabor this point (nor hijack Joey's thread). Just an objective observation. Curious what others think.

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    Out of curiosity, are there any (or have there been any) super fast hikers who never sought notariaty, and genuinely didn’t give a flying fig if others acknowledged their personal achievements?

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    I'm gonna say yes

  17. #137
    Registered User Just Bill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    Out of curiosity, are there any (or have there been any) super fast hikers who never sought notariaty, and genuinely didn’t give a flying fig if others acknowledged their personal achievements?
    Mags for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chknfngrs View Post
    If I read the String Beans spreadsheet correctly, he averaged 3MPH. How's that get him 2000 miles in 45 days? Am I missing something? Finally some data but cornfusing
    -docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fapbSF6WyEOxp6jtpL7TPwjGcrNhACmmGwgYettbQX8/edit?usp=sharing

    The Number he mentioned is 3.25 miles per active hour. Which is fast on it's own.

    One of the nice things with a spread sheet is it does quick math for you
    By highlighting that column you can also pull the average time on trail- 14:37:10

    Off hand (but with a decent memory)- that does strike me as one of the lowest average times on trail of any speed hike.

    That said it's not horribly different from Joey's current style and time. Joey prefers to run an 8-10 hour shift if possible and crank off 30-40 miles.
    He still deals with the normal 'thru hiker morning hobble' most of us deal with.. that first hour may only be the same mile or two that most of us cover. Once warmed up and loose he takes off. He's not much for night hiking and tries to 'cleanup' if needed at the end of the day. (if he fell behind he picks up the miles and pushed, if not he falls back, cares for his body, eats/sleeps).

    Guessing Joe was doing something similar. Higher output, longer recovery time, slightly less time on the trail than the 16 hours we've seen from Jen, Scott, Karl.
    For the most part you saw just at or barely over 3mph (hair under for Jen) and 15+ hours on trail averages.

    Bringing this back to some age debates before... this may be an example of age helping in Stringbean's case.
    Trying to do sustained running like that generally doesn't last. 16 hours of decent walking usually tears you up bad enough on it's own.
    That's why I expected a flameout from Stringbean... but perhaps his relative youth and nearly 8 hours of sleep was enough to push that style further than before.

    Joey has trained very diligently to work up to that style over several hikes... and while he pushed it much further than anyone I've seen... he began to break down as well. Though I think had he not torn his quad he would have been able to sustain his style.

    Fair enough to assume if Joey found a way, Stringbean might have as well... but can't really say.

    Interesting that Stringbean had time to shoot footage for a documentary! Guess we'll have to wait for that to hear more details.

  19. #139
    Registered User Just Bill's Avatar
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    As mentioned before- I helped Joey this year.
    And as much as I feel I could be objective- doubt others would see it that way and I wouldn't blame them.

    So that said- nothing personal against Joe- the hike should be reviewed.
    A self-supported hiker on their first trip to the AT with little or no backpacking experience just put up a time faster than Jen, Scott, and Karl.
    Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence.
    Also- several folks have expressed some interest in this and how it works so maybe a good time to involve more folks.

    Pennypincher mentioned not feeling experienced enough, others mentioned feeling unqualified.
    Bah! According to many I'm the most unqualified, inexperienced jackass around... and that's not even dealing with my loud mouth.

    I got started because I was a fan, but mainly because I had dreams of pulling one of these off.

    In many ways though- there is no more qualified group than the folks at WB to review hikes on the AT.
    Collectively there are maintainers (true angels), magicians, hikers, trail runners, guidebook writers or contributers, and most important of all; hikers.
    You won't really find any trail so well known and interconnected on the planet.

    You need four things to review a hike:
    Decent math skills.
    Objectivity.
    A familiarity with the trail.
    A vivid imagination that you can also keep in check.

    As those of you who know me or buy gear from me know- I am quite busy. I work 100 hours a week. I have two jobs, supposedly I have at least two children and a wife but they are getting fuzzy.
    But it's a long off season so there is not any big rush. I'm more than happy to help some folks learn to look through these hikes. It's not really that hard and the more the merrier.

    Here's the only thing... you have to check your ego at the door.
    Peter Bakwin is an Atmospheric Physicist by trade. I'm a carpenter (though a bit of a fancy one if I do say so).
    This is mainly crunching numbers and matching things up. Building things for me. A puzzle for some. Generally boring and tedious.
    You take the info you have and put the pieces together, you occasionally have to say a piece fits good enough.
    This isn't laboratory levels of precision and despite what some might think- generally ' a tie goes to the runner'.
    The goal is to give the hikes a reasonable level of review. If it's generally plausible- good enough. Some in the trades may be familiar with the phrase, "You can't see if from my house" or "Do your best and caulk the rest". This isn't CSI whiteblaze, there is no real data beyond what has been supplied, and no investigative work in the field or roughing up of witnesses to testify. It's pretty boring. Most likely you'll find a few pieces are missing and you won't finish the puzzle 100%... but if you can step back and see the picture without the boxtop... then that's a pretty good hike. There is no perfect hike. It's one person, on the edge of their limits, running through the woods for weeks on end.

    In the case of Knotts' hike; the goal was actually to try to put an un-provable hike together.
    Dan was quite convinced he did it. I initially believed him and I don't necessarily disbelieve him at this point.
    Unfortunately he simply didn't bring enough pieces of his puzzle to even guess what his hike looked like.

    That was a much harder hike to review than Ninja's for example; and despite long hours of effort the best we could really say was 'inconclusive'.
    What folks didn't see with Ninja's hike, was the multiple points and issues that were documented.
    What folks did see was good ol Billy Beartooth roll in with an eyewitness account of yellow blazing.
    That's a DQ. Good enough. There was no need to debate the dozen other issues, encounters, grill trail angels, etc.
    Even in that case- the goal is not to beat somebody up or to a pulp. One issue was enough. Case closed.
    That one probably looked pretty dramatic because it totally was a CSI kinda TV moment where the witness with the smoking gun stumbled in off the street.

    Personally- I just feel really bad for Kaiha. There isn't much personal reward in 'taking down' a troubled girl.
    As some may recall I got involved with that one because my cousin is about her age, served in the Air Force, was raped while on duty and discharged.

    So I had some motivation to see that hike succeed, for Kaiha to be the person that Meatballs was setting her up to be.
    Unfortunately that was not the case.
    So a final warning. Reviewing hikes is not fun. It is the the dirty side of FKT's.
    It goes against hike your own hike and many other freedoms we backpackers treasure.
    It puts you in a spot you have to beat up on somebody like Anish for not following the rules even when you highly respect that person otherwise.
    You are calling out people who are hiking for nothing more than bragging rights... there is no money on the line.

    For all the inspiration and high minded junk I ascribe to these hikes... to an extent it is just a race.
    You do have to let the evidence supplied take you where it leads and accept it won't be perfect.
    You need to follow the rules as best you can, as cut and dry as you can. Rules for one means rules for all.

    Like any athletic achievement though; what makes them special is that they can be proven to a reasonable degree of certainty.
    At the end of the day that's the small reward in reviewing hikes- there actually are some real ones out there.
    For all the ugly things that happen, it turns out people can do some really neat things.

    So for any interested...
    I will still extend my earlier offer to help with an open review of this hike on WB.
    Assuming Alligator is okay with it, we can start a thread and work on one openly and publicly.
    This is essentially what Peter envisioned... He would record the events, the community would discuss them.
    None of us want secrecy, a day in court, or special folks who can do this.
    And eventually- when folks understand there is a large group of folks with experience looking at your hike... they will probably clean it up on their own.
    Ideally- hikes don't take much review. We spin through the splits, double check a few things, and call it a day. No controversy, no problems.

    Just inspiring efforts to enjoy.

  20. #140

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    John Zaharian interviews Flash

    http://routespodcast.com

    Great inspiration

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