This post covers my opinion.Originally Posted by MuddyWaters
As long as it is at a parking lot or a trailhead that vehicles can drive to anyway, and the folks clean up after themselves, I am in agreement with this. I just can't see what the objection could possibly be...
Now, I have not seen much of whatever you define TM as on the actual AT itself. Not much at all. Nothing involving cooking or feeding, that's for darn sure. The only feeds I've seen are at fairly big gaps that normal cars can easily drive to, trailheads that cross paved roadways, and atop one bald that I don't really count as the AT even though the AT crosses it...
So, apparently everyone's MMV and there are organized feeds happening on the trail itself. Or some kind of organized stuff on the trail itself. Otherwise.....
What if you spent a year planning a trip...say JMT.
Weeks trying to get a permit...and you get lucky
Thousands of dollars in travel and gear and food costs
so you can go see spectacular wilderness, some of the best the US has
then you find groups of people set up in the wilderness, feeding people
feeding people that dont need food
Its happening right now
The segment of people that only want to SOCIALIZE, not actually hike is exploding on trails
and ruining peoples experiences
You dont need to eat food to be harmed, just being there ruins the wilderness experience
its all spillover of AT "trail magic"
propagated by facebook and internet groups and people that want to socialize, not experience wilderness
when does it end? Its already out of control
Go somewhere else. Somewhere rarely mentioned online. Don't mention it online.
Wayne
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Not going to happen on the JMT. It's too remote. Don't have roads crossing it in 200+ miles. Might - very big might - see some type of feed at Tuolomne Meadows eventually but...UNLIKELY. And that's not on the JMT. The JMT is very different... THANKFULLY! JMT is a quotaed trail. The AT is not. JMT is in Wilderness Areas or NP's. Don't see many hiker feeds at GSMNP at Fontana, Newfound or Davenport Gap, BSP(saw two over the years), through the Whites, or in S NP either. Might get a free cookie or leftovers at one of the AT AMC huts with possibly a work for stay but nothing guaranteed. The AT is the longest continuous most notorious prolly the most social trail if not the U.S. the world. Expect a following of AT enthusiasts. You wanted the AT notoriety? We promoted it by sheer validation by anyone reading this on this site WB.
I don't recognize any entitled AT hikers assuming they are entitled to guaranteed feeds either. It's like a hiker box...or box of chocolates. Never know what you're going to get if you get anything. And, when you do you are grateful.
Again, trail magic is not synonymous with food. Maybe, that also is an AT phenomenon?...trail magic + food? I experience and hear about trail magic on other trails and no none has a knee jerk immediate misconception it is about food.
Already happening
Its not that remote. Many places are a days hike from trailhead
A group calling them selves " john muir taco co" , complete with banner and logo recently fed hikers at Glen Pass
Last yr it happened other areas
Copy cats have a way of exploding....
Can we at least all agree that Hiker Feeds do not belong in Wilderness Areas ?
For of all sad words of tongue or pen,
the saddest are these, 'It might have been.
John Greenleaf Whittier
The title of the thread is somewhat misleading.
ATC is not saying trail magic is bad. The original meaning of trail magic is something we celebrate.
We are trying to restore the original meaning of trail magic, which refers to small, spontaneous and unexpected acts of kindness; or serendipity (finding or being given that thing you lost and needed desperately and didnt expect to find for days), or sometimes, experiences with nature that are so wonderful they take on a magical quality.
Yes, we are trying to discourage hiker feeds, especially in the backcountry, for the reasons a number of you have stated above. There is disagreement about whether they are appropriate at trailheads, where its not wild backcountry and there arent plants to be trampled.
There is little disagreement among those who take care of the A.T. and the land around it that unattended food is not good for the bigger picture of the Appalachian Trail, even if the vast majority of thru-hikers are enthralled with both the contents and the gesture of kindness behind it. Unattended food can have negative effects on animals, and even plants and soils if the magic causes people to congregate in large numbers or even small numbers in the same location over a period of time. And for those other than thru-hikers, even a well-maintained cooler can seem like an unwelcome human intrusion into the natural landscape.
Im not sure, but it seems to me these feeds and coolers seem to eclipse the often quieter and more subtle, but in a way more extraordinary trail magic. When I hear hikers talking about soda, beer, and hamburgers being the pinnacle of their A.T. experience, then I feel they are really missing out.
While it could be debated whether there are enough or too many well-meaning people who provide feeds and leave coolers in the woods, it cannot be debated that the Appalachian Trail needs more volunteers to maintain and repair trails, privies, shelters and trailheads, clean trash and graffiti, perform boundary work, remove invasive species that are destroying our diverse and beautiful native plants and animals, provide education and outreach, develop policies on emerging threats, and advocate for the A.T.
If there are any trail angels reading this, I encourage you to join your local trail club and find out where your love for the Trail and hikers can be used to serve hikers and the Appalachian Trail in other more essential ways.
Check out the web page or Facebook page of your local trail club, or go to www.appalachiantrail.org/volunteer.
i can totally see this becoming more and more of a thing- who can throw the biggest, most ridiculous hiker feed in the craziest place possible
Can we at least all agree that Hiker Feeds do not belong in Wilderness Areas ?
"hey, some guy just had a Hawaiian pig roast for hikers at the summit of mt rogers.... i can top that, i'm going to do it in mahoosuc notch!!"
because like i keep saying, the people who do these things arent doing it for the hikers, or for the community or somehow for the trail, theyre doing it for themselves. they want to feel a part of it, they want to feel like theyve done something, like theyve contributed. but theyre doing it in a totally asinine way.
thing is, this was always the case. the first time someone organized and planned one of these things (and ive watched them be organized and planned right here on this website at times over the years) they were doing something asinine and for their own selfish motivations.
this should have been seen coming a million miles away.
+ Exactly
Its been seen coming, its the nature of many people and the internet
No one would object to 1 instance of a feed
But that 1 instance, is quickly exploding exponentially, everywhere. All popular trails.
You can see people asking about doing food on all the forums and facebook pages
To effect change, peoples attitudes toward it have to change
It needs to be ridiculed, looked down on
Exposed for what it is
An individual or groups desire for socializing, or facebook notoriety
Its never about the hikers
To insure it doesnt become
doesnt the ATC, more or less, throw something of a hiker feed of sorts yearly, if not more often, in harper's ferry?
I must say, some of my most vivid memories of hiking on the AT are those of being feed by strangers. The woods, the views, the ups and downs all become a blur, but the random encounters of people set up on the side of the road offering anything from donuts to burgers tend to be special.
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Exactly! If you don't like the social aspect of the A. T. or JMT or PCT go hike somewhere else, there are plenty of trails and you can have a different experience on every one of them. Just because some ppl don't want TM doesn't mean that those who do shouldn't be allowed to enjoy it. As the very annoyingly over used saying (but true one) goes, Hike Your Own Hike ppl! And stop judging everyone else's that don't do it the way you do! Sorry, I'm just sick to death of judgy, negative ppl that are always pissed off about everything!
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Just when the bubble of thrus starts to spread out, word goes out on the interwebs about a feed and the bubble coalesces again. That's why feeds are a resource issue. When hikers are more spread out, the trail and the surrounding vegetation has a chance to recover. Feeds create larger, concentrated groups which can lead to resource damage. When there are multiple advertised feeds, hikers don't spread out. It's strange when you find yourself in the gap when this happens. You know there's more thrus out but you don't see them because they are timing their hike to hit the feeds.
Another way in which this happens is near specific geographic locations, like favored hostels.
"Sleepy alligator in the noonday sun
Sleepin by the river just like he usually done
Call for his whisky
He can call for his tea
Call all he wanta but he can't call me..."
Robert Hunter & Ron McKernan
Whiteblaze.net User Agreement.
The Intended A.T. Experience
ATC does not put on hiker feeds in Harpers Ferry. I don't recall that we ever have. During the last 3 years, there has been a pancake breakfast at the Flip Flop Festival in mid-April to early May put on by a local church or fraternal organization, with maybe 10-20 flip floppers attending, with friends and family and members of the community. We've had probably 0-2 nobos attending. Hot dogs and hamburgers and occasionally other food items have been for sale during the first day of the festival, but the event is not targeted for on-trail thru-hikers.
ATC's neighbors, the Independent Order of Odd Fellows, hosted a cookout for the Warrior Hikers for the first few years, and invited any other hikers who were around to attend, but did not do that this year.
The large number of feeds, combined with the growing party culture, does seem to be changing the trail experience, at least for northbound thru-hiker during a certain time frame. As those feeds are publicized and celebrated, hikers come to the Trail with different types of expectations about what their trail experience should be.
Here is the definition of the Appalachian Trail Experience, as developed by the Appalachian Trail Conservancy Board of Managers in 1997:
The Appalachian Trail is, first and foremost, a footpath open to any and all who travel on foot. Its sole purpose as a recreational resource is to provide an opportunity for travel on foot through the wild, scenic, wooded, pastoral, and culturally significant lands of the Appalachian Mountains.
Except in isolated instances where historically recognized nonconforming uses are allowed by legislative authority, the footpath of the Trail should not be used for any other
purpose. This policy is intended to provide a framework within which other recreational uses will be evaluated. The Appalachian Trail Conservancy may develop additional policy direction for
specific uses as needed.
The lands acquired and managed for the Appalachian Trail, and lands designated within the A.T. management zone, not only protect the footpath itself, but provide primary protection of the
Trail experience. The Trail experience, as used in this context, is intended to represent the sum of opportunities that are available for those walking the Appalachian Trail to interact with the
wild, scenic, pastoral, cultural, and natural elements of the Appalachian Trail environment, unfettered and unimpeded by competing sights or sounds and in as direct and intimate a
manner as possible. Integral to this Trail experience are:
Opportunities for observation, contemplation, enjoyment, and exploration of the natural world;
A sense of remoteness and detachment from civilization;
Opportunities to experience solitude; freedom; personal accomplishment; selfreliance; and self-discovery;
A sense of being on the height of the land;
Opportunities to experience the historic and pastoral elements of the surrounding countryside;
A feeling of being part of the natural environment; and
Opportunities for travel on foot, including opportunities for long-distance hiking. Other recreational uses of these lands should be considered compatible if they do not
require any modification of design and construction standards for the Trail footpath or Trail facilities; cause damage to the treadway or Trail facilities; require an engine or motor; or
adversely impact the Trail experience or the cultural, natural, or scenic resources of the Trail.
ATC is currently reviewing this definition and it's possible there may be some modifications. Regardless, it may be useful in this discussion.
Who is ATC? We are the organization that oversaw the creation of the building of the Appalachian Trail, and worked to have it become a unit of the National Park Service to help set the framework for the permanent protection of not only the footpath but surrounding lands--a wide enough corridor to help maintain the values above. We have been the lead agency for managing and protecting the Trail since its inception, working with local volunteer trail clubs, local agencies, and the National Park Service, which has overall administrative responsibility for the Trail.
I know many on this thread are well aware of all this, but there are some newcomers who may not be.
Again, gaps that cars can drive to(legally) and trailheads at paved/graveled roads aren't my idea of "wilderness" in any way/shape/form and if there is a car there, it isn't going to ruin my experience in the least. Again, apparently YMMV, but it is hard for me to wrap my head around "how".
I just can't imagine thru's banging away on the internet in order to schedule their hike to coincide with feeds in such a number as to cause or effect any "bubble". Or banging away on the internet once their hike starts in order to time their hike to hit the feeds. But, maybe it is a real "thing" and is the reason for "bubbles" or their size/length. Interesting theory....
I think we can all agree that other than some random act of individualized isolated kindness, there doesn't need to be any disturbance of the wilderness with feeds, coolers or people handing out cookies with a religious message on the wrapper. Period. I am in full agreement with this concept. If you aren't hiking, stay out of the wilderness with your "kindness". I may have lobbed some rocks at the Taco Co....or at least gave them a piece of my mind, had I been there.
But, I've had my wilderness experiences more often disturbed/damaged/interrupted by other hikers. The list of offenders and their offenses is almost endless, but none involve TM. Pet Peeve #124=If you are going to go to the effort and trouble of packing beers into the wilderness, yet believe throwing your empties in the fire(even crushed, "dude") is a good idea, please don't be surprised to find those cans inside your tent in the morning. Soot/ash covered and all. Sharp edges and all. It's your can "dude".
Yeah, TM offends me not. A-holes who have no respect for my outdoor experience in the wilderness do. Again, it's never involved TM, so I am now CERTAIN YMWV, just sayin....
with all due respect i think its worth considering whether or not what you describe above, in spite of the level of attendance and type of attendance, is similar enough to a hiker feed that holding those events while simultaneously bemoaning hiker feeds is sending a mixed message.
Tdoczi,
A church Pancake breakfast is hardly the same thing as parking yourself at the end of the footbridge that crosses the Potomac handing out 'free trail magic' to thru-hikers. There is a difference between arguing a point and being argumentative.
For of all sad words of tongue or pen,
the saddest are these, 'It might have been.
John Greenleaf Whittier
i didnt say it was the same, i said it is worth considering whether it is similar enough. does it being in town really make it THAT much different?
i'm ok enough with the ones in town, not so much with ones on the trail. but, do you not think that the people doing it on the trail get the idea from seeing it go on in towns? i dont think i'm being argumentative by pointing out that possibility.
If I can ever get my knee and foot working correctly again, I may just do this. For my first distance hike, I wasn't nearly confident enough to manage the logistics myself. The guides and the apps really make the major known trails the safer, easier choice.
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