WhiteBlaze Pages 2024
A Complete Appalachian Trail Guidebook.
AVAILABLE NOW. $4 for interactive PDF(smartphone version)
Read more here WhiteBlaze Pages Store

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 53
  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    05-17-2016
    Location
    Winfield, AL
    Age
    40
    Posts
    3

    Default Hiked the Smokies

    I just got back from my 5.5 day trip through the Smokies from the Fontana Marina to I-40. I really enjoyed the actual hike, and was surprised at (but prepared for) the remote nature of it, Clingmans and Newfound Gap notwithstanding.

    I am confused about something...why does the park keep and maintain horse hitching rails and allow horses to graze and pee and crap all over the place, yet they can't put up a few poles for hammockers (or even allow them to use trees)? Perhaps they should allow hammocking at any time other than in the bubble, say June 1 to December 31.

    Has there been any push to allow hammocking? I can't possibly see how a hammock could do more damage than a horse. The shelter experience which I detest and the inflexibility of the reservations (I could have pushed on for two days when the weather was nice) were a real bummer for an otherwise excellent trip.

  2. #2
    Registered User
    Join Date
    08-08-2012
    Location
    Taghkanic, New York, United States
    Posts
    3,198
    Journal Entries
    11

    Default

    Two different issues.

    Horses were historically used in this area as transportation and allowed long before the park existed and was part of the concession to allow the park to come about as I understand it, also they (horse clubs) are a great help to maintain the trail by pacing up supplies to keep the trail and shelter sites in order.

    Hammocking, OTHO was something I put in my reports when I was ridgerunning here. Many backpackers and in particular thru hikers now hammock and there is simply no accommodation for them. I am sad to see it still exists like this.

  3. #3

    Join Date
    05-05-2011
    Location
    state of confusion
    Posts
    9,866
    Journal Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by uatuba View Post
    I am confused about something...why does the park keep and maintain horse hitching rails and allow horses to graze and pee and crap all over the place, yet they can't put up a few poles for hammockers (or even allow them to use trees)? Perhaps they should allow hammocking at any time other than in the bubble, say June 1 to December 31.

    Has there been any push to allow hammocking? I can't possibly see how a hammock could do more damage than a horse. The shelter experience which I detest and the inflexibility of the reservations (I could have pushed on for two days when the weather was nice) were a real bummer for an otherwise excellent trip.
    Cant make everyone happy, the list will never end.

    I cant believe there are handicapped accessible privys, and not handicapped accessible sleeping bunks in shelters.....yet. Just wait.

    More people would like to see electric receptacles for charging ithingys than hammocks. Way more. Should we listent to them too?
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 06-15-2017 at 21:49.

  4. #4
    Registered User
    Join Date
    12-19-2005
    Location
    Knoxville, TN
    Posts
    3,715
    Images
    3

    Default

    I cant believe there are handicapped accessible privys


    theres one at Leconte....

  5. #5
    Registered User
    Join Date
    07-25-2015
    Location
    Sugar Hill, GA
    Age
    57
    Posts
    920

    Default

    I don't think a request for hammocking is on par with electrical outlets and handicap access. Sorry, apples and oranges. Hammock access requires nothing but the permission to do it. No funding, not materials (unless you really want poles to hang from, which I don't). There are plenty of trees in the park that can accommodate a hang.

  6. #6

    Join Date
    05-05-2011
    Location
    state of confusion
    Posts
    9,866
    Journal Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Joe View Post
    I don't think a request for hammocking is on par with electrical outlets and handicap access. Sorry, apples and oranges. Hammock access requires nothing but the permission to do it. No funding, not materials (unless you really want poles to hang from, which I don't). There are plenty of trees in the park that can accommodate a hang.
    Hanging repeatedly on the same trees in area of a shelter would damage them. A trees life is in the cambium, just under the bark. Girdling the tree will kill it, even with 2" web with repeated use over time on same trees.

    The forces generated by hammocks are huge, particularly when people plop onto them.
    10,000-30,0000 lbs. A small pole wouldnt last, or be safe. This is also why not allowed to hang on shelters.

    A small area has been designated sacrificial for shelters to protect area along AT. Thats it. People dont sleep in hammocks at home, they dont have to sleep in one in gsmnp. Please cite one good reason , why special expensive efforts or environmental concessions should be made for a small user group that wants to do things their favorite way.

    Because there are hundreds of such small groups. You cant fixate on one.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 06-15-2017 at 22:29.

  7. #7
    Registered User
    Join Date
    05-17-2016
    Location
    Winfield, AL
    Age
    40
    Posts
    3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    Cant make everyone happy, the list will never end.

    I cant believe there are handicapped accessible privys, and not handicapped accessible sleeping bunks in shelters.....yet. Just wait.

    More people would like to see electric receptacles for charging ithingys than hammocks. Way more. Should we listent to them too?
    You're conflating convenience and allowance. The current system is unsafe and it encourages dishonesty. If I, as a section hiker, am forced to push on to my reserved shelter despite weather, injury, loss of supplies, etc., that could pose a number of dangers that would be eliminated by allowing individuals to hammock at their convenience in designated sites. And as has already been stated, simply fixing the rules would cost nothing, other than changing the signs that state that hammocking is not allowed.

  8. #8
    Registered User
    Join Date
    08-08-2012
    Location
    Taghkanic, New York, United States
    Posts
    3,198
    Journal Entries
    11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post

    ....The forces generated by hammocks are huge, particularly when people plop onto them.
    10,000-30,0000 lbs. A small pole wouldnt last, or be safe. This is also why not allowed to hang on shelters.
    ...
    While the force applied is usually much higher than the hanger assumes, I think you are off by a order of magnitude. 1000 - 3000 lbs 'plop' force sounds more correct.

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    Hanging repeatedly on the same trees in area of a shelter would damage them. A trees life is in the cambium, just under the bark. Girdling the tree will kill it, even with 2" web with repeated use over time on same trees.

    The forces generated by hammocks are huge, particularly when people plop onto them.
    10,000-30,0000 lbs. A small pole wouldnt last, or be safe. This is also why not allowed to hang on shelters.

    A small area has been designated sacrificial for shelters to protect area along AT. Thats it. People dont sleep in hammocks at home, they dont have to sleep in one in gsmnp.
    I don't believe what you say to be the case. I have come across old growth trees that have been used for pulleys during logging operations. These trees had steel cables wrapped around them that, over time, became imbedded into their bark They were were doing just fine. A properly strung hammock is no more damaging to a tree than you leaning against it. No, this is just another example of mindless regulations that make the National Parks an abomination, and the reason I avoid them like the plague.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  10. #10
    Registered User
    Join Date
    08-08-2012
    Location
    Taghkanic, New York, United States
    Posts
    3,198
    Journal Entries
    11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by uatuba View Post
    You're conflating convenience and allowance. The current system is unsafe and it encourages dishonesty.
    Well any rule encourages dishonesty.


    If I, as a section hiker, am forced to push on to my reserved shelter despite weather, injury, loss of supplies, etc., that could pose a number of dangers that would be eliminated by allowing individuals to hammock at their convenience in designated sites.
    This is one of the arguments against the Smokies backcountry reservation system. But has nothing to do with hanging, everyone is in the same boat here.


    And as has already been stated, simply fixing the rules would cost nothing, other than changing the signs that state that hammocking is not allowed.
    Hammocks are allowed, you can carry them freely without a permit.
    Hanging is allowed at campsites, and also allowed at full shelters on the AT if one has a AT thru hiking permit and there is no room for you in it.

  11. #11

    Join Date
    08-07-2003
    Location
    Nashville, Tennessee
    Age
    72
    Posts
    6,119
    Images
    620

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rex Clifton View Post
    A properly strung hammock is no more damaging to a tree than you leaning against it. No, this is just another example of mindless regulations...
    Mindless lack of understanding of simple physics, if you believe that.
    [I]ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: ... Defile not therefore the land which ye shall inhabit....[/I]. Numbers 35

    [url]www.MeetUp.com/NashvilleBackpacker[/url]

    .

  12. #12
    Registered User
    Join Date
    05-17-2016
    Location
    Winfield, AL
    Age
    40
    Posts
    3

    Default

    I can cite a number of good reasons. Sleep apnea being one of them...unless we expect the park to install CPAP machines in the shelters.

    It's also more sanitary. It also allows for better protection of equipment from rodent damage or theft. It also would allow for flexible hiking.

    Your force calculations are off by an exponential factor, but that really doesn't matter...poles in public parks have been in place for a decade with near constant use, and they have lasted plenty long enough. I imagine a horse getting spoiled and jerking on a rail would generate more force than a 250 lb hammocker. It seems like those rails have been there for a while.

  13. #13

    Join Date
    05-05-2011
    Location
    state of confusion
    Posts
    9,866
    Journal Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Starchild View Post
    While the force applied is usually much higher than the hanger assumes, I think you are off by a order of magnitude. 1000 - 3000 lbs 'plop' force sounds more correct.
    Yep
    point was the pole must withstand the torque the hammock places on it. The leverage of attaching the hammock several feet above ground multiplies the load as you go down the shaft of the pole . At the base the pole must withstand bending torque about 6x the force applied, depending on height. Worst case, flat pitch and fooling around results in needing a very stout pole to be idiot proof and last. 3000 lb force , maybe 2000 horizontal ( not gonna do math), is abot 12000 ft lbs of torque on pole. It not a tiny pole if top not supported also. Hard to sink in rock too Id guess.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 06-15-2017 at 23:01.

  14. #14
    GSMNP 900 Miler
    Join Date
    02-25-2007
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Age
    57
    Posts
    4,861
    Journal Entries
    1
    Images
    5

    Default

    Hammocks are allowed in GSMNP, but there are three important rules:
    1. Hammocks should use "tree saver straps".
    2. Hammocks may not be attached to buildings or other structures.
    3. Hammock hangers must follow rules for tenting.

    The implication of #3 is that the only time a hammock can legally be used at a shelter site is by a thru hiker when the shelter is full.

    While a properly hung hammock with wide straps won't harm a mature tree, the ground under the hammock will get stamped down from repeated use like the ground under defacto tent pads. So to generally allow hammocks at shelters would negate the reason for the shelter.

  15. #15
    GSMNP 900 Miler
    Join Date
    02-25-2007
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Age
    57
    Posts
    4,861
    Journal Entries
    1
    Images
    5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by uatuba View Post
    If I, as a section hiker, am forced to push on to my reserved shelter despite weather, injury, loss of supplies, etc., that could pose a number of dangers that would be eliminated by allowing individuals to hammock at their convenience in designated sites. And as has already been stated, simply fixing the rules would cost nothing, other than changing the signs that state that hammocking is not allowed.
    First of all, the park service NEVER expects you to put "rules" above safety.
    Second of all, you are assuming the rules are "broken". The park service has been saddled with the dual mandate of protecting the park AND making it available for our use. The way GSMNP has decided to fulfill that dual mandate is to attempt to concentrate those activities that cause damage (camping) by implementing a limited number of campsites and shelters so that the rest of the park can remain relatively pristine. Even if a hammock does no damage to the trees, the ground under a hammock still gets trampled on by hammock users. So in that regards, I fully understand the concept that the park service has decided that rules that apply to tent campers apply to hammock campers as well.

  16. #16
    Registered User evyck da fleet's Avatar
    Join Date
    09-24-2011
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Age
    52
    Posts
    516

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by uatuba View Post
    You're conflating convenience and allowance. The current system is unsafe and it encourages dishonesty. If I, as a section hiker, am forced to push on to my reserved shelter despite weather, injury, loss of supplies, etc., that could pose a number of dangers that would be eliminated by allowing individuals to hammock at their convenience in designated sites. And as has already been stated, simply fixing the rules would cost nothing, other than changing the signs that state that hammocking is not allowed.
    I'm not sure how hammocking is any different than tenting. Wouldn't someone carrying a tent have the same issues? Either way repeated use will leave a trace hence the designated shelter areas. Everyone should carry a shelter, reservation or not, which can be used if the shelter is full.

    As much as I dislike rules ( no you can't camp wherever you please) when it comes to hiking, at times they are necessary. If I hike the Smokies I accept the rules. I'd prefer that to an endless stream of tp flowers throughout the park or arriving at a shelter with 100 people who all thought it'd be a great place to camp that weekend.

  17. #17

    Default

    All reasons stated for wanting to hammock are or will be negated by the fact that the rules are the rules. There are very unique plant life's that grow at those elevations found no where else along the AT. People put straps on the trees and there goes the fungi, moss and other different species. I am not a plant person so excuse my ignorance in terminologies. It isn't going to kill anyone to play by the rules, thro down a pad, pop in some earplugs and enjoy the great experience of hiking thru the smokies. If you are a completion purest and haven't done the smokies then pull four 18's, get thru park and be done with it. Or don't do it.

    "I love hiking with my dog, he's not allowed in GSMNP can we change the rules?" No, the answer is no because its a rule. They didn't make the rules because you want to do it and therefore they don't want you to be happy. They made the rule because at some point it wasn't a rule, and was causing a negative impact.

    Not yes the hiking world is evolving, hammocks are becoming very popular and I would consider the hammock world to be a great deal larger then "a handful" - And I do not see a problem with a action plan to update the camping site with some poles organized to hold hammocks, this would require labor and funds, for it to be laid out, and go thru the government. Then as well the website would have to be updated for registration efforts to not hold open hammock only reservations.
    Trail Miles: 4,927.6
    AT Map 1: Complete 2013-2021
    Sheltowee Trace: Complete 2020-2023
    Pinhoti Trail: Complete 2023-2024
    Foothills Trail: 0.0
    AT Map 2: 279.4
    BMT: 52.7
    CDT: 85.4

  18. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TNhiker View Post
    theres one at Leconte....
    They are springing up all along the VT section of the AT, in the most inaccessible places!

  19. #19
    Registered User
    Join Date
    03-23-2014
    Location
    Fayetteville, NC
    Posts
    599
    Journal Entries
    4
    Images
    7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by uatuba View Post
    You're conflating convenience and allowance. The current system is unsafe and it encourages dishonesty. If I, as a section hiker, am forced to push on to my reserved shelter despite weather, injury, loss of supplies, etc., that could pose a number of dangers that would be eliminated by allowing individuals to hammock at their convenience in designated sites. And as has already been stated, simply fixing the rules would cost nothing, other than changing the signs that state that hammocking is not allowed.
    Having been around a ridgerunner for a few days during my hike in the GSMNP last May, if you are injured or escaping inclement weather, you're not going to be drawn and quartered like you think. Of course, dishonest people will bend the rules.
    "The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep."

  20. #20
    Registered User BuckeyeBill's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-18-2012
    Location
    Dark Side of the Moon
    Age
    64
    Posts
    1,445
    Journal Entries
    6

    Default

    This horse (no pun intended) has been beaten to death many times before. The permit and registration system in the GSMNP has been in effect I believe since 2012. It came about because of the overcrowding at shelters and numerous people stealth camping inside the park. Even now the ATC is asking, not requiring, people to schedule their departure date on their website, in order to avoid overcrowding along the whole trail. Baxter State Park has instituted a permit system to go on the trail up to Mt. Katahdin. All three examples are caused by overcrowding. Some people, myself included, put a lot of the blame on a movie about two friends hiking the AT. It is felt that this brought about a huge amount of attention to the trail that resulted in certain people with no previous hiking experience and that don't have a clue how difficult a thru hike is to complete. They go out and buy equipment without researching it and usually end up bringing way too much stuff and or the wrong type of gear. You will find it on the stairs on the approach trail and along the trail north of Springer Mountain just lying on the ground. They have no concept of LNT principles.

    Now getting back to the Smokies, I will tell you up front that I personally detest shelters. Between the mouse poop, food stains, stains left by people who got sick (read puked) and the stinking, dirty, farting, belching, snoring hikers (nothing personal), just let me camp away from the shelter. I also don't want mice running back and forth over me all night or bugs that can give me certain diseases. I am the one that will setup in a shelter, but will gladly give up my spot to a late arriving hiker.

    Some have mention the damage to the trees and and the ground that hammock hangers cause. A veteran hanger carefully chooses their spot. Live trees, no dead ones, that are the correct diameter (12 inch minimum for me) as well as the correct distance apart (15 feet minimum though I prefer 18 feet when I can find it.). Are there any widow makers overhead (dead branches that can fall on me). The correct distance from water sources (200 feet recommended). Ground underneath, is it the point of not being able to be reclaimed? If it is use it, but if there a tent camper there and it is a level area, leave it for the them, as a hammock can hang over slanted ground. If the area is capable of being reclaimed, leave it alone and find somewhere to hang. As a last resort we use virgin areas. After such use, we will do our best to restore it to it previous condition. Chances are low that another hiker will use that exact same spot.

    The physics of hammock hanging is complex and should be left to the Sheldon Coopers of the world. Derek Hansen has a neat calculator on his website that shows you how changes in one aspect of the hang can effect to rest of the dynamics. It also shows the shear force applied to the tree at the strap height.
    Blackheart

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
++ New Posts ++

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •