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  1. #1
    Registered User Elaikases's Avatar
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    Default Of quilts and sleeping bags and ... liners and weight

    I have what has always seemed to me to be a very light, but very warm, airplane blanket.

    I got to thinking of using it to supplement my sleeping system.

    Then I weighed it. 15 ounces.

    My Marmot sleeping bag, which will take me below freezing, only weighs about two pounds. Switching down to a one pound quilt and supplementing that with a 15 ounce blanket, that really doesn't get me below 40 degrees or so comfortably, suddenly seems a lot more stupid than it did.

    The more I look, the more I realize that things I think I'm doing to be lighter, end up nickle and dimes ... which add up to more than I'm saving.

    So the quilt/down blanket for warmer weather, the sleeping bag for when it gets colder, forget the various add-ons that are only a few ounces. By the time they all added up, it was lighter just to take the sleeping bag.

  2. #2
    Registered User egilbe's Avatar
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    If you supement your sleep system with items you are already carrying, you can save weight. Sleep in your puffy, wear your rain gear to bed, sleep with hats and gloves on. You are already carrying most of those items, anyway

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    Garlic
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    If nothing else, that's a good illustration of the value of a scale.

    My wife had a favorite fleece hat. She found a possible replacement that was warmer, but felt heavier. We weighed them, and the new one was actually an ounce lighter. Always check the things that "weigh practically nothing."

    I have never found liners to be worth their weight in insulation value, either.
    "Throw a loaf of bread and a pound of tea in an old sack and jump over the back fence." John Muir on expedition planning

  4. #4
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    I have to chuckle every time I read "it weighs practically nothing"

    My bro-in-law once had a 75lb pack full of stuff that weighed practically nothing.

    Yes yes yes! Use other clothing to supplement your quilt.

    A quilt is still lighter than a bag. My 20deg EE Enigma in long/wide weighs 22 oz. 32 oz for a 30deg bag isn't exactly light these days.

  5. #5
    Registered User Old Hiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by egilbe View Post
    If you supement your sleep system with items you are already carrying, you can save weight. Sleep in your puffy, wear your rain gear to bed, sleep with hats and gloves on. You are already carrying most of those items, anyway
    My take on this advice is what happens on those nasty, rainy times that you have worn your rain gear, hat and gloves for 3 days straight? It's all soaked with water and you are going to take it to a fairly dry bed that (hopefully) you have kept safe and dry in a waterproof bag of some type?

    What happens tomorrow night?

    I'll carry the extra ozs to stay warm and dry at night.
    Old Hiker
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  6. #6
    Registered User egilbe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Hiker View Post
    My take on this advice is what happens on those nasty, rainy times that you have worn your rain gear, hat and gloves for 3 days straight? It's all soaked with water and you are going to take it to a fairly dry bed that (hopefully) you have kept safe and dry in a waterproof bag of some type?

    What happens tomorrow night?

    I'll carry the extra ozs to stay warm and dry at night.
    But those extra ozs are in a warmer sleeping bag, right?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by garlic08 View Post
    If nothing else, that's a good illustration of the value of a scale.

    My wife had a favorite fleece hat. She found a possible replacement that was warmer, but felt heavier. We weighed them, and the new one was actually an ounce lighter. Always check the things that "weigh practically nothing."

    I have never found liners to be worth their weight in insulation value, either.

    Exactly what I have learned.

    The really light liners provide no warmth.

    Light liners that really work turn out to weigh 30 ounces

  8. #8
    Registered User Just Bill's Avatar
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    In EN testing- base layers (midweight) add roughly 5* to your total sleep system. That's top, bottom, hat, socks. Probably near a pound of clothes.

    From a materials standpoint-
    Cap 4/thermal weight/Polartec power Dry grid fleece (of any flavor your choose) weighs about 4 oz per yard.
    The lightest base layers weight around 2.75 oz/yard, a 100wt fleece is around 6oz-8oz per yd.

    Point being- Clothing never beats insulation... a liner is just a piece of clothing sewn up into a potato sack. Unlike clothing- you can't use it for anything else.
    Two layers of .67 oz taffeta shell and 3oz Primaloft Gold weighs roughly 4.5 oz per sq yard all in.
    That's the PLG quilts I make and they are rated to about 45* or add roughly 20*-25* to your sleep system when you are stacking them.

    With down... roughly .25" of loft buys you 5* of warmth. In 800 fill (and baffles) that's about .5 ounces per yard for the bump... you've already paid the bulk of the weight premium in the shell so additional loft/warmth is the lowest weight penalty you can pay.

    So... from a weight standpoint.
    You are better off wearing your clothing, than not. But you are never better carrying extra clothing to supplement your sleeping gear. If you have clothing you are carrying to use as clothing- use it. But if that combo isn't doing the job the answer is more insulation, not more clothing (or a liner).

    A safety piece doesn't count. It's should be outside your sleep system for things like Old Hiker mentioned. But that's a typically a piece of clothing.

    So back to the OP...
    A quality 1lb down quilt (35*) and a quality 1lb synthetic (45/50)- would buy you a pretty versatile system to compare to your other bag to cover you over a wider array of temps. You could sleep well from 20*- 60* pretty easy.

    But if you isolate it- once you get past (below) 40* the lightest option is always a single down bag rated appropriately. Once you hit about 30* it's lighter to get it 10* warmer (sometimes even 20*) than it is to add even a spare midweight long underwear top. It'll "cost" you 2 ounces or so in a quality bag to pick up that extra 10*, but 6oz or better for 4-6* of warmth for your torso.

    The advantage to the combo system is versatility. You can leave your camp puffy at home and wear your synthetic for around camp- then combine it with your down bag for bedtime. You also then have two relatively inexpensive pieces of gear and you're covered most places for 6-8 months of the year.

    The disadvantage to the single warm bag- once you go much past 20-30* warmer than the rating- it's not much fun. And it's overkill too if you're watching your weight and not in alpine areas where you might need a 20* bag year round.

    On the scale-
    A quilt (with attendant head insulation) rarely weighs less than a mummy bag.
    A quilt (and it's accessories) though are more versatile. (You can't wear your mummy hood on a chilly morning, or send it home when it warms up... but you can do that with your hats).
    A quilt is never as warm on the cold end... but it's never as hot on the hot end.
    Around 20*... a mummy is lighter than a quilt (plus parts) and more effective too.
    That's apples to apples- a few quilt makers have sorted this out and make their quilts warmer than a comparable sleeping bag to hold the rating. If you took two mummy bags from the same company and modified one to be a quilt... you'd find the quilt not as warm at the bottom end of it's rating.

    All that said... again... not to big a hit on the scale or the wallet though to add 10* to a quilt to buy cheap versatility.

    A liner is easy to wash... and can be used in high summer as your only bag. So while not totally useless; from a UL perspective that seems it's only real use IMO.
    For that purpose- I'd rather have a .67 oz nylon sack that would give me a little wind and bug protection. Silk is very nice for this too. But beyond those two materials the "insulating liner" is marketing. Sea to summit is the worst offender.
    A poly/cotton blend bed sheet sewed up into a basic quilt is quite nice for high summer (65+)

    You rarely find anyone who owns "one" piece of sleeping gear for good reason.
    If there is an ideal two bag combo- IMO- a 45* synthetic and a 20* down quilt is as good as it gets.
    That's good about 0 (with clothes and tricks) to 65-70*.

    If I was out west and in higher elevations (or even cool summer nights) often. I'd switch that to a 35* down quilt and a zero mummy. Laying the two would put you around -25* or -30*

  9. #9
    Registered User Just Bill's Avatar
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    https://www.rei.com/product/705534/s...ummy-bag-liner

    For reference- the "adds up to 15*" STS liner is a roughly 3.6 oz/sy yd polyester.

    Basically the exact same material as a Patagonia Cap 1 (daily wear) top.
    http://www.patagonia.com/product/men...layers#start=1

    Field experience/feedback from most here and at BPL has shown this product to add about 5*

    That said- it does weigh less than a separate set of sleep clothing.. you're less likely to wear it... and it's easy to clean. It's nice material against your skin than some SUL shell materials.
    So for those types of folks- this is probably better than sleep clothes- and it would work in high summer as it's own "bag". Especially if you slit the side and turn it into a quilt.

  10. #10
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    I do like a sleep layer to keep things clean.

  11. #11
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    I really like changing into a base layer to sleep.

    It helps keep things cleaner.

    But mine is lightweight. In experience it adds five degrees or a little more to warmth.

    But. The polyester pajamas that I saw suggested came to a pound.

    That got me thinking suddenly. I've been weighing things more and more and thinking since.

    Too much ounce wise and pound foolish.

    I had a warm weather hike. Just used a fifteen ounce quilt and left my bad behind.

    Started thinking of how to stretch the quilt. Then my wife realized that her taking two quilts was actually the same weight as a sleeping bag and a lot less warm.

    Before long we were weighing and suddenly back to the sleeping bags.

    And no liner. I could never find one that made sense.

    More and more I am simplifying and reducing.

    Not so much what I have in inventory but what I choose to carry out of what I have.

  12. #12
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    Quote:

    "But if you isolate it- once you get past (below) 40* the lightest option is always a single down bag rated appropriately. Once you hit about 30* it's lighter to get it 10* warmer (sometimes even 20*) than it is to add even a spare midweight long underwear top. It'll "cost" you 2 ounces or so in a quality bag to pick up that extra 10*, but 6oz or better for 4-6* of warmth for your torso"

    That hits the bottom line so very well.

    Nicely said.

  13. #13
    Registered User DownEaster's Avatar
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    A silk mummy bag liner weighs under 4 ounces, and they claim up to 10 degrees of added insulation (of which I'll believe maybe 5 degrees). But really it's there so it can go in the wash every time I hit a laundromat, and my sleeping bag stays clean.

  14. #14

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    Here we go again. I will supplement a Katabatic or EE quilt or a WM Highlite 35* bag with a 4.2-4.4 oz ripstop Silk Stretchy side panel hooded liner cinching up the liner around my head just as the sleeping bag and it gets me an added 4-7 * warmth bump in the general advertised warmth increasing neighborhood. I especially like pairing it with a quilt or this sewn through WM bag to cut drafts as I'm a heavy rotisserie sleeper and cowboy camper. I see many a folk using a UL liner like this basically to primarily line their quilt or sleeping bag not getting the maximum warmth increase out of the liner to which many a folk then complain that the liner didn't do the asw advertised job. These comments are made in regard to ONLY sub 5 oz 100% silk liners with a hood. AGAIN, I will write that I often use the liner as a multi use piece NOT just for lining a quilt or sleeping bag. These lightest wt liners can easily be wrapped around one's shoulders as a mid layer or tied into a sarong/toga/kilt like apparel piece also when washing clothes or drying clothes on trail. I've tied mine into hanging hammock chairs and as ground clothes as well.

  15. #15
    Registered User Elaikases's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    Here we go again. I will supplement a Katabatic or EE quilt or a WM Highlite 35* bag with a 4.2-4.4 oz ripstop Silk Stretchy side panel hooded liner cinching up the liner around my head just as the sleeping bag and it gets me an added 4-7 * warmth bump in the general advertised warmth increasing neighborhood. I especially like pairing it with a quilt or this sewn through WM bag to cut drafts as I'm a heavy rotisserie sleeper and cowboy camper. I see many a folk using a UL liner like this basically to primarily line their quilt or sleeping bag not getting the maximum warmth increase out of the liner to which many a folk then complain that the liner didn't do the asw advertised job. These comments are made in regard to ONLY sub 5 oz 100% silk liners with a hood. AGAIN, I will write that I often use the liner as a multi use piece NOT just for lining a quilt or sleeping bag. These lightest wt liners can easily be wrapped around one's shoulders as a mid layer or tied into a sarong/toga/kilt like apparel piece also when washing clothes or drying clothes on trail. I've tied mine into hanging hammock chairs and as ground clothes as well.
    That is fair.

    I now have a one pound quilt that binds to my sleeping pad and a two pound sleeping bag, that I use depending on temperatures.

    I have a base layer for sleeping in to keep things cleaner and to let my clothes air out and dry out at night while I am sleeping.

    I'm working on using a stuff sack for a pillow instead of a pillow (I have used a travel pillow a number of times).

    But the improved quilt works a lot better than a quilt and a blanket. Each was only 15 ounces, but they totaled 30 and ... well you know. Add sleep socks and some more things and I was better off with just the sleeping bag.

    It has been a learning curve and I'm grateful for other posters and their gear reviews and thoughts.

  16. #16

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    Did you see the nice DIY video of someone who made a down quilt out of two Costco down blankets here on WB about 3 months ago

  17. #17

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    He demonstrated in I think 2 or 3 well done vids

  18. #18
    Registered User Elaikases's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    Did you see the nice DIY video of someone who made a down quilt out of two Costco down blankets here on WB about 3 months ago
    Yes. that got me started on all sorts of things.

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