Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 77

Thread: Water flavoring

  1. #21
    Registered User
    Join Date
    03-06-2007
    Location
    Bellevue, WA
    Age
    61
    Posts
    1,997

    Default

    Agree about gatorade powder being heavy. And bulky. I don't need the additives, get lots of nutrients from my food; my issue is that I tend to dehydrate, so want something to encourage me to drink more.

    On long distance trips, it's not just about "what's best", but also about "what's available". In that context, crystal light singles or other brand or generic equivalents that can be found in a grocery store. Some are okay with the newer small plastic squeeze bottles, but I'd rather have the little packets --- I think lighter overall.
    Generally I carry more than I need out of a town with a store that offers them, as a lot of times when I can at least minimally resupply food I can't resupply the drink powder, i.e., in gas station mini-marts and the like.
    Gadget
    PCT: 2008 NOBO, AT: 2010 NOBO, CDT: 2011 SOBO, PNT: 2014+2016

  2. #22
    Registered User
    Join Date
    03-01-2017
    Location
    Austin, Texas
    Age
    46
    Posts
    45

    Default

    Lots of gatorade powder, I use man. I use 6-8 oz per day and it's part of my meal plan (It's basically just sugar with some electrolytes added in, exactly what I need for hiking.)

  3. #23
    Registered User
    Join Date
    06-02-2011
    Location
    Neptune Beach, Fl
    Age
    43
    Posts
    5,360

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayne View Post
    Lots of gatorade powder, I use man. I use 6-8 oz per day and it's part of my meal plan (It's basically just sugar with some electrolytes added in, exactly what I need for hiking.)
    Id rather have 6-8oz of snickers for the cal and sugar....


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. #24

    Default

    I drop an herbal peppermint tea bag or two in a liter bottle. I refill the bottle as needed throughout the day without adding any more tea. In the evening, I remove the tea bags and start with new the next day. Obviously, you could use whatever kind or flavor of tea you like, or that's available. Most tea bags are very light.

    On trail, I use a hydration bladder (only water, no tea or anything). Having the drinking tube right there, I drink a lot more than I would otherwise.

    -FA

  5. #25
    Registered User
    Join Date
    02-05-2009
    Location
    Smithville, Tennessee
    Age
    67
    Posts
    1,191

    Default

    My water bottles that I carry are 2 or 3 20oz coke bottles. My drink of preference is Mal-mart brand orange individual drink mix(kool aid style) I will chug 4 bottles a day.

  6. #26

    Default

    I have used everything from individual kool aid packets, to gatorade powder, to the walmart store brand individual flavor packets. I have seen some people using the Mio but haven't tried it myself.
    Whether you think you can, or think you can't--you're right--Henry Ford; The Journey Is The Destination

  7. #27

    Default

    We use this in the UKhttps://www.amazon.co.uk/Robinsons-Squashd-Multipack-Flavour-3x66ml/dp/B00K1KWF3E

  8. #28

    Default

    The thing I like about Mio is it's ease of use

  9. #29

    Default

    I liked Mio until I had one leak in my food bag. Red everywhere.

  10. #30
    Registered User
    Join Date
    08-28-2007
    Location
    Georgia and Hawaii
    Posts
    14,761

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianLe View Post
    Agree about gatorade powder being heavy. And bulky. I don't need the additives, get lots of nutrients from my food; my issue is that I tend to dehydrate, so want something to encourage me to drink more.
    ...Some are okay with the newer small plastic squeeze bottles, but I'd rather have the little packets --- I think lighter overall...
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayne View Post
    Lots of gatorade powder, I use man. I use 6-8 oz per day and it's part of my meal plan (It's basically just sugar with some electrolytes added in, exactly what I need for hiking.)
    Two excellent observations. YES, darn heavy in context of what's received especially if you become habituated to artificially flavored artificial sugar water. The most abundant ingredient(s) in both Crystal Light and Gatorade Powders is sugar at 83-85% sugar calories. TANG is 41% sugar. Kool Aid is basically colored sugar. *by caloric content %

    Hydrating 4-10 L of H20 per 8 hrs of hiking accustomed to drinks having to be sweetened one can easily be hauling in excess of 10 oz of powder each day. Some will say I don't use that much. It's still a slippery sugary sweetened slope because: 1) its' scientifically engineered in by processed food industry scientists to exploit the human palette's "bliss point", you're intentionally pleasure driven through opioid receptors, dopamine, and endorphins to achieve this known bliss point, you become ADDICTED by having cravings intentionally triggered until this bliss point is achieved, so much for a war on addictive drugs(compounds)? 2) drinking sweetened water, whether it's heavily sweetened or not, accustoms one to further desiring/drinking/eating what's sweet. BAD! Because then unsweetened water that should be consumed for hydration can be bypassed missing out on proper hydration levels which I thought was the goal of drinking water in the first place? *This can have the opposite effect of being encouraged to drink more H20. This is observed repeatedly on trail and off. So many are observed who drink sugar laden powder mixes and liquid sugary drinks that don't consume enough water to properly hydrate or do so only by carrying much sugary powders while being sugar addicted.

    Think about this in terms of food wt. If the average food wt/day hauled by hikers is 1.5 - 2 lbs(24-32 ozs) adding 10 ozs to this increases the food wt hauled by 30-40+ %.... LARGELY FOR SWEETNESS SAKE. Don't U.S. citizen already consume enough sugar? Now we bring our sugar addictions to hikes at the expenses of added wt and lower(NOT HIGHER!) nutrition? Aren't we already consuming enough sugar laden foods in many trail foods? And, isn't it easy enough to obtain real nutrients and electrolytes, sodium etc AND FLAVOR from REAL WHOLE foods?

    https://www.eatthismuch.com/food/vie...rade-mix,3211/ Do the math.

    Interesting how flavoring is intentionally linked by so many to sweetness. HOW HAS THAT HAPPENED?
    https://www.theblot.com/what-bliss-p...oritos-7716219
    http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/...r-our-cravings
    http://www.wellingtonresearch.com/wh...r-bliss-point/

    YES, it's a conspiracy!

    One can have flavored water with zero sugar, zero artificial sugar, and zero artificial ingredients. HOW? Make a tea as FarAway suggested. A good one for the trail is steeping a chunk of fresh ginger root, fresh bit of lemon, and turmeric(fresh rhizome or powder) in a water bottle using the same over the course of many water bottle fillings; add a bit of sweetness in the form of maybe a honey packet or packet of REAL sugar. We do it in Hawaii EASILY by offering delicious cucumber, lemon, or orange water with a touch of Himalayan or Sea salt added. How hard is it to find cucumber, small lemon, small orange, and some sea salt... especially during summer? Adding some freshly foraged raspberries, strawberries, thimble berries, huckleberries, blueberries is really all it takes to favor water and provide some nutrients WITHOUT having to haul a sugary powder. And , now were not having our bliss points unnaturally triggered that we become addicted to sugar laden powder mixes AND we understand what the heck we are consuming. Don't let the processed food industry "scientists" take over your ability to know what you're consuming.

  11. #31
    Registered User cneill13's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-14-2015
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Age
    50
    Posts
    198

    Default

    It may sound nasty but I love this flavor drink mix when out on the trail. The packets are tiny and the taste is just like the watermelon candy.

    https://www.amazon.com/Jolly-Rancher...cher+drink+mix

    Carl

  12. #32
    Registered User
    Join Date
    03-01-2017
    Location
    Austin, Texas
    Age
    46
    Posts
    45

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    Two excellent observations. YES, darn heavy in context of what's received especially if you become habituated to artificially flavored artificial sugar water. The most abundant ingredient(s) in both Crystal Light and Gatorade Powders is sugar at 83-85% sugar calories. TANG is 41% sugar. Kool Aid is basically colored sugar. *by caloric content %

    Hydrating 4-10 L of H20 per 8 hrs of hiking accustomed to drinks having to be sweetened one can easily be hauling in excess of 10 oz of powder each day. Some will say I don't use that much. It's still a slippery sugary sweetened slope because: 1) its' scientifically engineered in by processed food industry scientists to exploit the human palette's "bliss point", you're intentionally pleasure driven through opioid receptors, dopamine, and endorphins to achieve this known bliss point, you become ADDICTED by having cravings intentionally triggered until this bliss point is achieved, so much for a war on addictive drugs(compounds)? 2) drinking sweetened water, whether it's heavily sweetened or not, accustoms one to further desiring/drinking/eating what's sweet. BAD! Because then unsweetened water that should be consumed for hydration can be bypassed missing out on proper hydration levels which I thought was the goal of drinking water in the first place? *This can have the opposite effect of being encouraged to drink more H20. This is observed repeatedly on trail and off. So many are observed who drink sugar laden powder mixes and liquid sugary drinks that don't consume enough water to properly hydrate or do so only by carrying much sugary powders while being sugar addicted.

    Think about this in terms of food wt. If the average food wt/day hauled by hikers is 1.5 - 2 lbs(24-32 ozs) adding 10 ozs to this increases the food wt hauled by 30-40+ %.... LARGELY FOR SWEETNESS SAKE. Don't U.S. citizen already consume enough sugar? Now we bring our sugar addictions to hikes at the expenses of added wt and lower(NOT HIGHER!) nutrition? Aren't we already consuming enough sugar laden foods in many trail foods? And, isn't it easy enough to obtain real nutrients and electrolytes, sodium etc AND FLAVOR from REAL WHOLE foods?

    https://www.eatthismuch.com/food/vie...rade-mix,3211/ Do the math.

    Interesting how flavoring is intentionally linked by so many to sweetness. HOW HAS THAT HAPPENED?
    https://www.theblot.com/what-bliss-p...oritos-7716219
    http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/...r-our-cravings
    http://www.wellingtonresearch.com/wh...r-bliss-point/

    YES, it's a conspiracy!

    One can have flavored water with zero sugar, zero artificial sugar, and zero artificial ingredients. HOW? Make a tea as FarAway suggested. A good one for the trail is steeping a chunk of fresh ginger root, fresh bit of lemon, and turmeric(fresh rhizome or powder) in a water bottle using the same over the course of many water bottle fillings; add a bit of sweetness in the form of maybe a honey packet or packet of REAL sugar. We do it in Hawaii EASILY by offering delicious cucumber, lemon, or orange water with a touch of Himalayan or Sea salt added. How hard is it to find cucumber, small lemon, small orange, and some sea salt... especially during summer? Adding some freshly foraged raspberries, strawberries, thimble berries, huckleberries, blueberries is really all it takes to favor water and provide some nutrients WITHOUT having to haul a sugary powder. And , now were not having our bliss points unnaturally triggered that we become addicted to sugar laden powder mixes AND we understand what the heck we are consuming. Don't let the processed food industry "scientists" take over your ability to know what you're consuming.
    While this is may be considered good advice for your typical American working behind a desk, I don't think this logic is applicable to someone engaged in long distance hiking. Hikers do not need to drink low calorie drinks, in fact I think it's quite the opposite. Why would you carry the weight of non-nutritive beverage flavorings? Your body needs sugar and electrolytes. I easily need 5-6K calories per day hiking and going severely negative will cause me to crash. 1,000 calories of Gatorade is a good thing.

  13. #33
    Registered User
    Join Date
    03-01-2017
    Location
    Austin, Texas
    Age
    46
    Posts
    45

    Default

    Also, Gatorade powder is 130 calories per 32g (or 1.1 oz) so it's in my target window of calories/oz (must be > 100 calories per oz or I'm not carrying it.)

  14. #34

    Default

    I take 2 Gatorade packets per day as my treat for camp. Its a delicious pick me up that also helps electrolytes. I tried mio but reserve it more for work

  15. #35
    Registered User
    Join Date
    08-28-2007
    Location
    Georgia and Hawaii
    Posts
    14,761

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayne View Post
    While this is may be considered good advice for your typical American working behind a desk, I don't think this logic is applicable to someone engaged in long distance hiking. Hikers do not need to drink low calorie drinks, in fact I think it's quite the opposite. Why would you carry the weight of non-nutritive beverage flavorings? Your body needs sugar and electrolytes. I easily need 5-6K calories per day hiking and going severely negative will cause me to crash. 1,000 calories of Gatorade is a good thing.
    Umm, I was not making a case for low calorie diets or foods or drink flavorings. I was making the case for nutrient dense diets, foods, and flavorings that offer more than nutritionally dismal "sugar wt calories" that are flavorful and EASY to apply to trail life.

    For the umpteenth time food is not just calories even in the context of LD hiking. Calories exist within the matrix of an entire substance...hence terms like "empty calories" and "junk food flavorings and additives", OFTEN of artificial or dubious origins, passed off by marketing gurus as if they are needed by "athletes" based on "scientist's" scientific approaches - food engineers working within the processed food like substances industry - for performance and hydration." The all calories are good, all calories are equal, all food is equal, all food is - is calories, all food is assimilated the same, all food is - is nothing but energy is a fallacy promoted among members of the hiking community.

    If hauling sugar wt is a significant part of trail food wt - 30+% of daily calories - making SUGAR a big part of the daily caloric load please explain to us the wider nutritional, performance, and trail wt saving benefits of this approach?

    Can't we see that we can get more nutrition without appealing to sugar addictions to flavor water. Let's revisit what the topic is about --- flavoring water. This can EASILY be accomplished without appealing to sugar laden nutritionally dismal flavorings.

    Umm, YES the human body needs sugar, actually glucose, and electrolytes to function but that can be obtained consuming REAL FOODS - EVEN IN THE CONTEXT OF LD HIKING. This occurs when complex carbs are broken down into glucose and electrolytes are in the food. We don't necessarily need added sugar in the diet or eat sugary foods to obtain desired glucose and electrolytes. Since many hikers already include "junk food"/food containing high sugar, fat, and salt contents on trail it's quite the norm to consume excess amounts of added sugar ALREADY on trail without the need to consume more sugar in sugar added foods or sugary flavorings.

  16. #36
    Registered User
    Join Date
    06-02-2011
    Location
    Neptune Beach, Fl
    Age
    43
    Posts
    5,360

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    Two excellent observations. YES, darn heavy in context of what's received especially if you become habituated to artificially flavored artificial sugar water. The most abundant ingredient(s) in both Crystal Light and Gatorade Powders is sugar at 83-85% sugar calories. TANG is 41% sugar. Kool Aid is basically colored sugar. *by caloric content %

    Hydrating 4-10 L of H20 per 8 hrs of hiking accustomed to drinks having to be sweetened one can easily be hauling in excess of 10 oz of powder each day. Some will say I don't use that much. It's still a slippery sugary sweetened slope because: 1) its' scientifically engineered in by processed food industry scientists to exploit the human palette's "bliss point", you're intentionally pleasure driven through opioid receptors, dopamine, and endorphins to achieve this known bliss point, you become ADDICTED by having cravings intentionally triggered until this bliss point is achieved, so much for a war on addictive drugs(compounds)? 2) drinking sweetened water, whether it's heavily sweetened or not, accustoms one to further desiring/drinking/eating what's sweet. BAD! Because then unsweetened water that should be consumed for hydration can be bypassed missing out on proper hydration levels which I thought was the goal of drinking water in the first place? *This can have the opposite effect of being encouraged to drink more H20. This is observed repeatedly on trail and off. So many are observed who drink sugar laden powder mixes and liquid sugary drinks that don't consume enough water to properly hydrate or do so only by carrying much sugary powders while being sugar addicted.

    Think about this in terms of food wt. If the average food wt/day hauled by hikers is 1.5 - 2 lbs(24-32 ozs) adding 10 ozs to this increases the food wt hauled by 30-40+ %.... LARGELY FOR SWEETNESS SAKE. Don't U.S. citizen already consume enough sugar? Now we bring our sugar addictions to hikes at the expenses of added wt and lower(NOT HIGHER!) nutrition? Aren't we already consuming enough sugar laden foods in many trail foods? And, isn't it easy enough to obtain real nutrients and electrolytes, sodium etc AND FLAVOR from REAL WHOLE foods?

    https://www.eatthismuch.com/food/vie...rade-mix,3211/ Do the math.

    Interesting how flavoring is intentionally linked by so many to sweetness. HOW HAS THAT HAPPENED?
    https://www.theblot.com/what-bliss-p...oritos-7716219
    http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/...r-our-cravings
    http://www.wellingtonresearch.com/wh...r-bliss-point/

    YES, it's a conspiracy!

    One can have flavored water with zero sugar, zero artificial sugar, and zero artificial ingredients. HOW? Make a tea as FarAway suggested. A good one for the trail is steeping a chunk of fresh ginger root, fresh bit of lemon, and turmeric(fresh rhizome or powder) in a water bottle using the same over the course of many water bottle fillings; add a bit of sweetness in the form of maybe a honey packet or packet of REAL sugar. We do it in Hawaii EASILY by offering delicious cucumber, lemon, or orange water with a touch of Himalayan or Sea salt added. How hard is it to find cucumber, small lemon, small orange, and some sea salt... especially during summer? Adding some freshly foraged raspberries, strawberries, thimble berries, huckleberries, blueberries is really all it takes to favor water and provide some nutrients WITHOUT having to haul a sugary powder. And , now were not having our bliss points unnaturally triggered that we become addicted to sugar laden powder mixes AND we understand what the heck we are consuming. Don't let the processed food industry "scientists" take over your ability to know what you're consuming.
    Agree but remember the acid in lemons will eat the plastic in most disposable water bottles.....although Used to do it often with my nalgenes for daily use but recently switched to a stainless hydro flask to avoid this.......probably a mute point as most of us already put boiling water in a plastic ziplock to cook.

  17. #37
    Registered User
    Join Date
    02-14-2017
    Location
    Pasadena, Maryland
    Age
    45
    Posts
    295

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    Two excellent observations. YES, darn heavy in context of what's received especially if you become habituated to artificially flavored artificial sugar water. The most abundant ingredient(s) in both Crystal Light and Gatorade Powders is sugar at 83-85% sugar calories. TANG is 41% sugar. Kool Aid is basically colored sugar. *by caloric content %

    Hydrating 4-10 L of H20 per 8 hrs of hiking accustomed to drinks having to be sweetened one can easily be hauling in excess of 10 oz of powder each day. Some will say I don't use that much. It's still a slippery sugary sweetened slope because: 1) its' scientifically engineered in by processed food industry scientists to exploit the human palette's "bliss point", you're intentionally pleasure driven through opioid receptors, dopamine, and endorphins to achieve this known bliss point, you become ADDICTED by having cravings intentionally triggered until this bliss point is achieved, so much for a war on addictive drugs(compounds)? 2) drinking sweetened water, whether it's heavily sweetened or not, accustoms one to further desiring/drinking/eating what's sweet. BAD! Because then unsweetened water that should be consumed for hydration can be bypassed missing out on proper hydration levels which I thought was the goal of drinking water in the first place? *This can have the opposite effect of being encouraged to drink more H20. This is observed repeatedly on trail and off. So many are observed who drink sugar laden powder mixes and liquid sugary drinks that don't consume enough water to properly hydrate or do so only by carrying much sugary powders while being sugar addicted.

    Think about this in terms of food wt. If the average food wt/day hauled by hikers is 1.5 - 2 lbs(24-32 ozs) adding 10 ozs to this increases the food wt hauled by 30-40+ %.... LARGELY FOR SWEETNESS SAKE. Don't U.S. citizen already consume enough sugar? Now we bring our sugar addictions to hikes at the expenses of added wt and lower(NOT HIGHER!) nutrition? Aren't we already consuming enough sugar laden foods in many trail foods? And, isn't it easy enough to obtain real nutrients and electrolytes, sodium etc AND FLAVOR from REAL WHOLE foods?

    https://www.eatthismuch.com/food/vie...rade-mix,3211/ Do the math.

    Interesting how flavoring is intentionally linked by so many to sweetness. HOW HAS THAT HAPPENED?
    https://www.theblot.com/what-bliss-p...oritos-7716219
    http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/...r-our-cravings
    http://www.wellingtonresearch.com/wh...r-bliss-point/

    YES, it's a conspiracy!

    One can have flavored water with zero sugar, zero artificial sugar, and zero artificial ingredients. HOW? Make a tea as FarAway suggested. A good one for the trail is steeping a chunk of fresh ginger root, fresh bit of lemon, and turmeric(fresh rhizome or powder) in a water bottle using the same over the course of many water bottle fillings; add a bit of sweetness in the form of maybe a honey packet or packet of REAL sugar. We do it in Hawaii EASILY by offering delicious cucumber, lemon, or orange water with a touch of Himalayan or Sea salt added. How hard is it to find cucumber, small lemon, small orange, and some sea salt... especially during summer? Adding some freshly foraged raspberries, strawberries, thimble berries, huckleberries, blueberries is really all it takes to favor water and provide some nutrients WITHOUT having to haul a sugary powder. And , now were not having our bliss points unnaturally triggered that we become addicted to sugar laden powder mixes AND we understand what the heck we are consuming. Don't let the processed food industry "scientists" take over your ability to know what you're consuming.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayne View Post
    While this is may be considered good advice for your typical American working behind a desk, I don't think this logic is applicable to someone engaged in long distance hiking. Hikers do not need to drink low calorie drinks, in fact I think it's quite the opposite. Why would you carry the weight of non-nutritive beverage flavorings? Your body needs sugar and electrolytes. I easily need 5-6K calories per day hiking and going severely negative will cause me to crash. 1,000 calories of Gatorade is a good thing.
    Actually, what he's saying has even MORE relevance with long-distance hikers. The body runs much more efficiently on fats than carbohydrates. I know that runs counter to what the Government has been saying the past 50 years, but it's no coincidence that as the American diet has become more carb heavy, we've become more obese.

    Speaking directly to long-distance hiking and nutrition, the latest studies show what true nutritionists have known for a long time: fit bodies burn fat better. Period.

    https://www.outsideonline.com/212503...body-thru-hike

    Not only does your body burn fat better, eating fatty foods like nuts and chia helps with satiety.

    As for Gatorade and tang:
    Ask any military vet that spent time out in Iraq or Afghanistan how good that stuff is long term under high metabolic stress levels. Again, it's no accident that those who drank large amounts (more than 16 oz/day) were much more prone to kidney stones.

    If you're ounce counting, the calorie density of fats vs carbs alone should have you carrying less carbs, especially simple carbs like sugar water.

    If you need the sweetness, try honey. It has benefits above adding sweetness to the drink.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  18. #38
    Registered User
    Join Date
    08-28-2007
    Location
    Georgia and Hawaii
    Posts
    14,761

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayne View Post
    Also, Gatorade powder is 130 calories per 32g (or 1.1 oz) so it's in my target window of calories/oz (must be > 100 calories per oz or I'm not carrying it.)
    Umm, don't know what you're reading. Orange or lemon lime flavored gatorade powder is about 110 cal/oz(28 gram) ratio. Gatorade powder has no fat!

    Consider a carb gram contains 4 cals. 28 grams is an oz. 28 gm/oz x 4 cals/gm = 112 calories/oz ratio for Gatorade powder. As said, Gatorade powder calories are sugar calories. Gatorade calories is sugar calories. These drink mixes I've named, despite the marketing hoopla, are constructed around sugar consumption.

  19. #39
    Registered User
    Join Date
    03-01-2017
    Location
    Austin, Texas
    Age
    46
    Posts
    45

    Default

    Agreed, no fat, it's basically just powdered sugar with some flavoring and electrolyte supplements. What do you think is in fruit, or honey? Simple sugars aren't "bad" they're just fuel. Not a lot of vitamins but it's got potassium and sodium, which you need to replace if you're sweating a lot. There's a reason that professional athletes and endurance athletes drink sports drinks - the sugar is easily converted into glycogen so that your muscles can use it. Fat is not. It is calorie dense, but the body has to convert it into lipids and various glycerides in the intestines.

    I don't personally advocate high glycemic index foods for general consumption - I try to avoid simple sugars at home and at work for a large number or reasons. On the trail or an endurance event is something completely different; gatorade powder allows me to hike longer and avoid dehydration and electrolyte imbalances (nasty things those.) If you want to do something different go for it! That's what works for me and it's my recommendation. YMMV.

  20. #40

    Default

    Propel... is the nastiest substance on earth. Avoid.

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
++ New Posts ++

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •