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  1. #1
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    Default An LNT request for hangers

    Great sunrise experience at McAfee Knob this Easter morning, save for one unfriendly exchange with a couple of hammock hikers wandering around the cliff area flashing full power headlamps into our dark-adapted eyes and eventually choosing a solitary pine sapling clinging to the rock edge as an anchor for both of their hammocks.

    After a short chat about how much I wanted the tree not to be a broken stump the next time I came up with everyone else to welcome the sun, they agreed that the tree was sketchy for the top hammock. They relocated the cliffside end to a couple of 1 1/2 inch rhododendron bush stems, again at the cliff edge. Fine. HYOH.

    But, a request. I understand that mountaineers sometime drive pitons into cliff rock to set their tents on a cliff edge, but there are a lot more hammock hangers, yes? Risking damage to fragile vegetation and blocking other hikers' view just is not good stewardship. Please -- don't?

    They were using the old style narrow straps, too.

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  2. #2
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    This is an interesting topic, and I think many of the hammock vendors have something to apologize for this too. Looking at many of their sites, they always show hammockers in "adventure hangs" instead of setup in a responsible way. How many shots are there of 20 hammockers in a ladder between 2 trees, or people hanging over the empty space between two cliffs?


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  3. #3
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    You mention cliff hangers doing things ruins what a hiker would do. But LNT is not a single all purpose guideline but a set of guidelines per activity. Somethings against LNT guidelines for one activity is OK in another.


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  4. #4
    Registered User BuckeyeBill's Avatar
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    I would have set up as a bivy somewhere else instead of hooking to something that small. My minimum diameter is at least 6".
    Blackheart

  5. #5
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    I suspect if they'd had tents, they would have been acting just as jerky?
    ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: ... Defile not therefore the land which ye shall inhabit..... Numbers 35

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  6. #6
    A proper quick, brave, steady, ready gentleman! ocourse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by windlion View Post
    Great sunrise experience at McAfee Knob this Easter morning, save for one unfriendly exchange with a couple of hammock hikers wandering around the cliff area flashing full power headlamps into our dark-adapted eyes and eventually choosing a solitary pine sapling clinging to the rock edge as an anchor for both of their hammocks.

    After a short chat about how much I wanted the tree not to be a broken stump the next time I came up with everyone else to welcome the sun, they agreed that the tree was sketchy for the top hammock. They relocated the cliffside end to a couple of 1 1/2 inch rhododendron bush stems, again at the cliff edge. Fine. HYOH.

    But, a request. I understand that mountaineers sometime drive pitons into cliff rock to set their tents on a cliff edge, but there are a lot more hammock hangers, yes? Risking damage to fragile vegetation and blocking other hikers' view just is not good stewardship. Please -- don't?

    They were using the old style narrow straps, too.

    Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk
    This is like the letter to the editor asking that people stop littering from their cars. That type of person likely won't read the letter, and if they did, they wouldn't care or modify their behavior. I do agree with you and I certainly wouldn't hang in such a situation. But HYOH sums it up.
    I've learned....
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  7. #7

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    I hammock exclusively (so far) and totally agree with the OP on this. Just because you CAN get that "ultimate hang" at a great view or waterfall doesn't mean you SHOULD do it.

    I really hate when some inconsiderate hammocker sets up right at the spot at a waterfall, or view location, that just totally blocks out everyone else from getting a great picture, or from enjoying the view themselves. Hammockers aren't the only offenders obviously, but they do tend to stand out.

    Some of the other points already made are applicable as well. Blame the hype from the ENO's of the world and the like for their unrealistic advertising. The people who do things like that don't care about others' wilderness experience anyway. And etc.

    Good job for at least speaking out against their bad and rude behavior. Maybe at least it will make them think about it next time.

  8. #8

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    You probably do at least 68 things that others do not agree with. HYOH.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronk View Post
    You probably do at least 68 things that others do not agree with. HYOH.
    But he's not talking about those 68 things, he's talking about hammockers with entitlement fever who demand to ruin a spot (and possibly a tree) with their drooling need to set up at the edge.

    Adding "HYOH" is perfect proof of how the HYOH mantra can be misused. Examples?

    Want to take a dump right in camp and leave it on the ground? Why not? HYOH.
    Want to let your dog sleep with you in the shelter? HYOH.
    Want to build a big bonfire and yell thru the night with your friends? Sure, why not? HYOH.
    Want to bring a trombone and blast out tunes? Sure. HYOH.

    HYOH is NOT an excuse for idiocy.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipi Walter View Post
    But he's not talking about those 68 things, he's talking about hammockers with entitlement fever who demand to ruin a spot (and possibly a tree) with their drooling need to set up at the edge.

    Adding "HYOH" is perfect proof of how the HYOH mantra can be misused. Examples?

    Want to take a dump right in camp and leave it on the ground? Why not? HYOH.
    Want to let your dog sleep with you in the shelter? HYOH.
    Want to build a big bonfire and yell thru the night with your friends? Sure, why not? HYOH.
    Want to bring a trombone and blast out tunes? Sure. HYOH.

    HYOH is NOT an excuse for idiocy.
    What Tipi said FTW!!

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnspenn View Post
    I hammock exclusively (so far) and totally agree with the OP on this. Just because you CAN get that "ultimate hang" at a great view or waterfall doesn't mean you SHOULD do it.

    I really hate when some inconsiderate hammocker sets up right at the spot at a waterfall, or view location, that just totally blocks out everyone else from getting a great picture, or from enjoying the view themselves. Hammockers aren't the only offenders obviously, but they do tend to stand out.

    Some of the other points already made are applicable as well. Blame the hype from the ENO's of the world and the like for their unrealistic advertising. The people who do things like that don't care about others' wilderness experience anyway. And etc.

    Good job for at least speaking out against their bad and rude behavior. Maybe at least it will make them think about it next time.
    Ome doesn't have to look far beyond the pages of magazine ads to understand why this is thought to be the way to nirvana and the norm...just sayn'

  12. #12
    Registered User tagg's Avatar
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    I agree that it was inconsiderate to hang from that tree, not to mention not well thought out - I know if one of my trees happens to go down while I'm in my hammock, I'd prefer it doesn't go over a rock ledge. But the pictures in magazines also show tents set up in the same spots, and I've never seen a hammock in an advertisement tied up to a sapling. I think most people who are getting into camping already have that nirvana spot in their heads, but many of them are still able to exercise some common sense while chasing that vision.

    As with most things, their hammocks were simply a window through which their lack of consideration became visible. If they were in tents, they would have set them up on the iconic overhang. If they had a dog, they would have bathed him in the water source and let him walk on your sleeping bag. If they took a dump, they would have left in laying on the ground in the middle of the trail. I've come to accept that there's the same percentage of "retardants" (as Tipi calls them) stomping around in the woods as everywhere else. Sigh.
    -tagg

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by tagg View Post
    I agree that it was inconsiderate to hang from that tree, not to mention not well thought out - I know if one of my trees happens to go down while I'm in my hammock, I'd prefer it doesn't go over a rock ledge. But the pictures in magazines also show tents set up in the same spots, and I've never seen a hammock in an advertisement tied up to a sapling. I think most people who are getting into camping already have that nirvana spot in their heads, but many of them are still able to exercise some common sense while chasing that vision.

    As with most things, their hammocks were simply a window through which their lack of consideration became visible. If they were in tents, they would have set them up on the iconic overhang. If they had a dog, they would have bathed him in the water source and let him walk on your sleeping bag. If they took a dump, they would have left in laying on the ground in the middle of the trail. I've come to accept that there's the same percentage of "retardants" (as Tipi calls them) stomping around in the woods as everywhere else. Sigh.
    So if we see these Detardos we should post their pics on our trail blogs and write a full report. And then forget about them and move on.

  14. #14
    Registered User tagg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipi Walter View Post
    So if we see these Detardos we should post their pics on our trail blogs and write a full report. And then forget about them and move on.
    I've pretty much adopted the mantra "Whatevs" and have learned just to let it go, but I have to admit that I thoroughly enjoy when you encounter Detardos during your trips and post pictures and such for our entertainment.
    -tagg

  15. #15
    A proper quick, brave, steady, ready gentleman! ocourse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipi Walter View Post
    But he's not talking about those 68 things, he's talking about hammockers with entitlement fever who demand to ruin a spot (and possibly a tree) with their drooling need to set up at the edge.

    Adding "HYOH" is perfect proof of how the HYOH mantra can be misused. Examples?

    Want to take a dump right in camp and leave it on the ground? Why not? HYOH.
    Want to let your dog sleep with you in the shelter? HYOH.
    Want to build a big bonfire and yell thru the night with your friends? Sure, why not? HYOH.
    Want to bring a trombone and blast out tunes? Sure. HYOH.

    HYOH is NOT an excuse for idiocy.
    Tipi Walter, it's not that well-thoght out. People will do whatever they want to do, no matter what you or I would like them to do. HYOH means do your own thing and don't worry about others. Others are Hiking Their Own Hike regardless of laws or best trail practices sometimes. You can post here foever but you can't make people do as you like. Just please yourself and don't worry about others. I do agree with you, but you can't force compliance or thoughtfullness in others. That is reality.
    I've learned....
    That a smile is an inexpensive way to improve your looks.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by ocourse View Post
    Tipi Walter, it's not that well-thoght out. People will do whatever they want to do, no matter what you or I would like them to do. HYOH means do your own thing and don't worry about others. Others are Hiking Their Own Hike regardless of laws or best trail practices sometimes. You can post here foever but you can't make people do as you like. Just please yourself and don't worry about others. I do agree with you, but you can't force compliance or thoughtfullness in others. That is reality.
    Many people will think twice though if they know what they are doing is wrong or that fellow hikers are angered by that sort of thing. If someone fairly new to backpacking never saw posts like these, they might think that the rules are just "guidelines" and aren't really a big deal. I always try to at least make mention of it when I see someone doing something that is genuinely destructive or out of line on the trail, trying to be as non-confrontational as possible. There are people out there who just don't yet know any better and may actually appreciate the knowledge. There are also those who will tell you in very flowery language just how much they care.

  17. #17
    A proper quick, brave, steady, ready gentleman! ocourse's Avatar
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    Good luck and I doubt you have an impact. They don't care. Years of experience tells me so. But I certainly don't discourage anyone from trying to educate.
    I've learned....
    That a smile is an inexpensive way to improve your looks.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by ocourse View Post
    Good luck and I doubt you have an impact. They don't care. Years of experience tells me so. But I certainly don't discourage anyone from trying to educate.
    "They".... very broad there.

    Not sure whether your view is defeatist, pessimistic, or just very cynical. Ask any LNT-following hiker who has ever had to be a beginner and they can likely testify that there are plenty of "they's" out there who do care. Just because there are those who will never care doesn't mean we shouldn't still speak up.

    I see what you're saying but it's very rare that I feel the need to actually say something, and in those situations I typically would feel bad if I let it go without saying anything anyway (people trashing alpine tundra, possibly contaminating water sources, etc).

  19. #19
    Registered User BuckeyeBill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipi Walter View Post
    But he's not talking about those 68 things, he's talking about hammockers with entitlement fever who demand to ruin a spot (and possibly a tree) with their drooling need to set up at the edge.

    Adding "HYOH" is perfect proof of how the HYOH mantra can be misused. Examples?

    Want to take a dump right in camp and leave it on the ground? Why not? HYOH.
    Want to let your dog sleep with you in the shelter? HYOH.
    Want to build a big bonfire and yell thru the night with your friends? Sure, why not? HYOH.
    Want to bring a trombone and blast out tunes? Sure. HYOH.

    HYOH is NOT an excuse for idiocy.
    Tipi,

    As always you are the voice of reason. I said it before and will repeat it here. Youth today have no work ethic, couldn't function without a smart phone in their hands and have a big sense of entitlement. I really wish Robert Redford never made that damn movie about the AT.
    Blackheart

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by ocourse View Post
    Tipi Walter, it's not that well-thoght out. People will do whatever they want to do, no matter what you or I would like them to do. HYOH means do your own thing and don't worry about others. Others are Hiking Their Own Hike regardless of laws or best trail practices sometimes. You can post here foever but you can't make people do as you like. Just please yourself and don't worry about others. I do agree with you, but you can't force compliance or thoughtfullness in others. That is reality.
    When it comes to the outdoors, yes, you are right---people will do whatever they want to do. But there are two kinds of outdoorsmen---those who walk on two legs into "deep" areas far from roads; and those who skirt around the edges and stay close to their vehicles, i.e. rolling couch potatoes.

    Point is, the closer a place is to road access the worst the human behavior---trash, turds, noise, alcohol abuse etc. But go deeper into rugged country and the idiots thin out as they just don't have the gumption to carry both themselves and their idiocy too far in.

    I pull many---many--- backpacking trips in the Southeast mountains and never see a soul---either backpacker or dayhiker. You just have to know where to go and pick areas and trails which are off the map for most casual trekkers.

    As to your final point---forcing compliance---well, Miss Nature has a wonderful way of forcing her compliance on countless idiots---especially in the winter. Go out in the worst weather (Miss Nature's Best) and you'll be certain to have it all to yourself. Therefore winter backpacking at 0F is always the best time to go backpacking and the best time to watch the Just Right folks scramble back to their indoor thermostats and significant udders.

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeBill View Post
    Tipi,

    Youth today have no work ethic, couldn't function without a smart phone in their hands and have a big sense of entitlement. I really wish Robert Redford never made that damn movie about the AT.
    Avoiding the AT is an excellent way to avoid these smart phone lemmings and their ilk. When I pull AT trips I always try to camp a mile before or a mile after a trail shelter. 90% of all retardants can be avoided this way.

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