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  1. #41

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    I could not agree with this MORE!!!! Many places on the A.T. are to left alone.. they are not designed for "Trail Magic" .. which, in my opinion.. is not MAGIC anymore.. its just a free feed with ALOT of self entitled hikers who get upset when thier is no cheese for the cheeseburgers.. or no VEGAN options.. good lord!! Its just out of hand... the new classes.. have it WAYYYY to easy..... People mean well Yes.... but.... Hikers should NOT have freee food and crap every day for teh first 4oo miles!!!
    "Reach Farther" ~ SOLACE

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    Quote Originally Posted by solace View Post
    I could not agree with this MORE!!!! Many places on the A.T. are to left alone.. they are not designed for "Trail Magic" .. which, in my opinion.. is not MAGIC anymore.. its just a free feed with ALOT of self entitled hikers who get upset when thier is no cheese for the cheeseburgers.. or no VEGAN options.. good lord!! Its just out of hand... the new classes.. have it WAYYYY to easy..... People mean well Yes.... but.... Hikers should NOT have freee food and crap every day for teh first 4oo miles!!!
    Why not?

    Seriously. Why not? And, what is it to you whether it is there or not?

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by solace View Post
    I could not agree with this MORE!!!! Many places on the A.T. are to left alone.. they are not designed for "Trail Magic" .. which, in my opinion.. is not MAGIC anymore.. its just a free feed with ALOT of self entitled hikers who get upset when thier is no cheese for the cheeseburgers.. or no VEGAN options.. good lord!! Its just out of hand... the new classes.. have it WAYYYY to easy..... People mean well Yes.... but.... Hikers should NOT have freee food and crap every day for teh first 4oo miles!!!
    Agreed. It's not that hard.

  4. #44

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    WHY NOT??!! Because these parts of the trail are becoming over run.. "Trail Magic" is becoming way to over bearing .. to where, in my 8 weeks a year of being a VOLUNTEER shuttle driver out of western NC. I am having to pack out this Trail Magic crap.. those who just leave it.... Why NOT? Because the 30-50 hikers i drive around each day, pick up at gaps, are asking "where can i plug in" ... "when can i charge my phone" ect... NOT... "WHERE IS THE BEST VIEW IN THIS AREA" or "Whats a great part of town" ..... WHY NOT!?!? is because the newbies expect more... and there sense of ENTITLEMENT only grows....
    "Reach Farther" ~ SOLACE

  5. #45
    Registered User soilman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchild View Post
    All good suggestion but let's not get preachy on how one must give back to the trail. There are many ways to help out the trail and not everyone fits into a neat box.
    I am not getting preachy. I am just offering alternatives if one feels a need to give back to the trail. Feeding hikers does nothing to help out the trail. Let's be honest. Many people who want to do hiker feeds want to be part of the thru hiking experience. This in turn makes folks who are attempting a thru hike feel like a rock star and these feed providers are like groupies. I have witnessed first hand how this entitlement builds. Hikers come to every road intersection expecting a feed or at the least a cooler full of drinks and snacks. I have seen hikers change their hiking plans in order to make a hiker feed. Some feeds have hundreds of hikers. How does this help the trail?
    More walking, less talking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchild View Post
    Then do it brother if that's they way you want to help, but let others do it their way, including showing human kindness the way they chose. Giving help to those who can really appreciate it and many will desire to help others due to the kindness they received. Knowing there is a place, such as the AT, where human kindness flows so freely has helped many restore their faith in humanity. Many people hike the AT to transition their life from one phase to another, a great time to extend kindness. IMHO this is a great cause to support.
    Can I count on you to donate to my thru hike? GoFundMe info wil lbe sent via PM.
    "The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep."

  7. #47
    Registered User BuckeyeBill's Avatar
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    I never said the the AT was a "protected Wilderness corridor". I merely stated the trail is a protected corridor whether it is private or public. Speaking of private land, the trail has less than 1/2 of 1 percent on private land and they are constantly working to purchase or secure these areas. The Trust for Public Land recently purchased the 175 acre Hudson Farm from Dartmouth College. They then turn the property over to the National Park Service who then added to the AT. According to Hanover town manager Julia Griffin, the town had long been interested in conserving the Hudson Farm property. The farm is part of a recreation and wildlife corridor called “green pearls”. Oh darn how can it be a "wildlife corridor" if it is the middle of Hanover? I tell you how. It is actually located in Etna and was endowed to the college in 1963. I'm sure if you check you find out the town of Hanover and Etna got a whole lot bigger since 1963.

    Max Patch is a large (360+ acres) cleared area that can accommodate large crowds. It has a road going to it and a parking lot adjacent to it. You say people have birthday parties and weddings there. Are the people have these gatherings familiar with the leave no trace policy. I would probably be correct if I said "No they don't." Can you picture a bunch of people in suits/tuxes and dresses walking over the area and picking everything off the ground. I make another guess and say after such an event, I could find food crumbs, cigarette butts and other trash that was "Over Looked." Then after all the fun, everyone grabs a chair and then goes back to return the grass to its prior state. again "I think no they don't." How many times is it preached to set up camp on durable surfaces. Return your camp site to its previous state. Don't leave dropped food on the ground, clean it up so wildlife can't associate people with food. If you have a fire use a previous fire ring. When your done, make sure it is put out completely (No unattended fires). Clean the ashes out and scatter them well away from the camp site, streams and the trail. This is why I don't think having a "Trail Magic" gathering on the summit is a good idea.

    The newer generation has adopted a whats in it for me, and I'll do what I want to, legal or not. I can picture a group on top of Katahdin pulling out a couple of brews, a bottle or two of wine or champagne. Yes its illegal but they have to catch me first. Now lets pull out joint and have a round table meeting. Yep as long as they don't catch me it's fine. The gang now has a little buzz going. OK everyone time to leave. That little buzz starts to really kick in as you all descend and maybe or maybe not, someone takes a header into the rocks that make up the trail to the summit. Now a good time has turned into a rescue. Your friend is carried off the mountain and sent to the hospital. Now the Park Rangers get involved and what do you know, "Sir I smell alcohol on your breath and an odor of marijuana on your person." Just like that the whole gang is tested and all receive a nice invitation to go to another party held at the court house with a Judge as the host. Yep, now it's illegal and costly. It also goes into another report that the State of Maine gathers and the next thing you know, you have to make a reservation and pay for a permit to climb that mountain. Nothing against the State of Maine, but they could enact legislation that allows the Park Rangers to search your packs and person (similar to the TSA checkpoints) for illegal items. They could tell the ATC that they want the northern terminus moved off Mt. Katahdin. Yes Judge I am sorry that my actions on the summit resulted in the moving of the terminus.

    The AT came into existence as a result of one man's thinking. On top of Springer there is a plaque that states "Appalachian Trail Georgia to Maine A footpath for those who seek fellowship with the wilderness". Just because man has done so much to destroy areas in the name of progress doesn't take anything away from the wilderness of the AT. It is 7.7 miles from I-40 to the next shelter if you are NOBO. I'm pretty sure I won't hear trucks and other traffic from I-40 at that distance. Trails pass through various towns for a few reason's. The designer's knew that hikers would have to resupply. They may want to clean up. Oh and let's not forget about a delicious meal that didn't come out of a bag and was boiled so they could eat it. The combined miles of the trail in towns and crossings of roads is minimal compared to the miles of "Wilderness" trail. You also need to remember that the trail's path was and still is the result of hard working clubs. That's why the mileage changes from year to year. They know when an area has been so overused, that it is better to relocate the trail while working to bring back the overused section.

    Go out west and talk to the various Indian tribes and they will tell you of the desecration of the land and the near extinction of wildlife. You can even go talk to the Cherokee Tribe that fought back along the Tennessee-North Carolina borders. They will tell you stories that have been passed down from generation to generation. There is an excellent outdoor drama called Unto These Hills. It is the tragic and triumphant story of the Cherokee that traces back to the years before the heartbreak of the Trail of Tears to the present day. I first saw it when I was 8 years old. Today it amazes me that that play stuck with me some 50 years later. Yes the good old white man paved paradise to put up a parking lot even back then.

    Today, any timber cutting on federal or state lands normally have a clause the states the companies cutting the timber and the mills they sell it to have to replant the area so we don't have Max Patch plots all over the country. They also have to reclamate any roads built for access to the area. It is no small job but at least they are trying to maintain wilderness areas for those of us that want to go out and sit naked on a stump in the middle of winter, but that's another story for another time. Take the time to memorize LNT measures.
    Blackheart

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by solace View Post
    WHY NOT??!! Because these parts of the trail are becoming over run.. "Trail Magic" is becoming way to over bearing .. to where, in my 8 weeks a year of being a VOLUNTEER shuttle driver out of western NC. I am having to pack out this Trail Magic crap.. those who just leave it.... Why NOT? Because the 30-50 hikers i drive around each day, pick up at gaps, are asking "where can i plug in" ... "when can i charge my phone" ect... NOT... "WHERE IS THE BEST VIEW IN THIS AREA" or "Whats a great part of town" ..... WHY NOT!?!? is because the newbies expect more... and there sense of ENTITLEMENT only grows....
    Holy cow. Other than the garbage issue, you are just way out of line here. First of all, there are no parts of the AT that I am aware of that are being "run over". Maybe you are referring to where the AT crosses a PUBLIC ROADWAY INCLUDING USFS ROADS? If so, get over it. It's public. It aint the AT. If you aren't referring to where the AT crosses public property, then please give us some mile marks in NC where the actual AT is being "run over", I'll be in Hot Springs tomorrow, so I will definitely check out your story.

    Secondly, may I ask exactly what AT Proper Hiking Police Department badge number you possess? Because, I have some news for you.......


    IT AIN'T YOUR HIKE.

    Really, who are you to force others to enjoy nature the way you think is proper?

    And, finally, since you hate your volunteer job so much, because of all these entitlement hikers, why don't you just stop? Or, why don't you pop in to any trail town and announce that you are giving free shuttle rides. That goes over so bigly in towns where the locals depend on two or three months of shuttle fees to make it through the year that I am sure you will receive the warmest of welcomes....you do realize that by volunteering free shuttle rides you are taking money out of poor folks pockets, don't you?

  9. #49
    Registered User BuckeyeBill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareBear View Post
    Holy cow. Other than the garbage issue, you are just way out of line here. First of all, there are no parts of the AT that I am aware of that are being "run over". Maybe you are referring to where the AT crosses a PUBLIC ROADWAY INCLUDING USFS ROADS? If so, get over it. It's public. It aint the AT. If you aren't referring to where the AT crosses public property, then please give us some mile marks in NC where the actual AT is being "run over", I'll be in Hot Springs tomorrow, so I will definitely check out your story.

    Secondly, may I ask exactly what AT Proper Hiking Police Department badge number you possess? Because, I have some news for you.......


    IT AIN'T YOUR HIKE.

    Really, who are you to force others to enjoy nature the way you think is proper?

    And, finally, since you hate your volunteer job so much, because of all these entitlement hikers, why don't you just stop? Or, why don't you pop in to any trail town and announce that you are giving free shuttle rides. That goes over so bigly in towns where the locals depend on two or three months of shuttle fees to make it through the year that I am sure you will receive the warmest of welcomes....you do realize that by volunteering free shuttle rides you are taking money out of poor folks pockets, don't you?
    NO Sir you are the one that is out of line. Tell me sir if the trail is not being over run, why is the ATC pushing hikers to register their start dates and also asking hikers to consider a flip-flop hike. Not over crowded? Baxter State Park just put out a letter complaining that the crowds are reaching the point that they may change the way you have to arrange how to climb that mountain. Tell me sir does that not cover enough of the trail to satisfy you that the trail is being over run. The best part is you don't have to be in Hot Springs to check it out. Just go the the ATC website and read all about it.

    Secondly tell me sir, who made you judge, jury and executioner on deciding who can complain about the attitude of hikers. This person who hauls 30-50 hikers per day has a better hand on the pulse of hiker attitude than you sir. It appears to me that they said they are a volunteer driver, which tells me they are either helping a friend or a relative who owns a motel, hotel or hostel that provides shuttles. Yes hikers that use shuttles should pay for the ride. They aren't poor. They are on a six month vacation. If they don't have the money to pay for a shuttle, then stick you thumb out or or walk your lazy butt into town. This person is not forcing others to enjoy nature the way they think is proper. No sir, they merely stating a facts based on their observations. I know when I catch a shuttle or someone picks me up I always have 10 bucks in my pocket to offer them even if I paid for the ride. Why because I never saw a hearse with a trailer hitch or luggage rack. You can't take it with you. And the your last sentence about shuttles is just so stupid I won't even comment.

    Tell me sir, how many times do we have to tell you that today's hikers are a different breed than us old timers. We were taught respect. We say thank you when some does something for us, we open doors for ladies and people behind us. You can tell these newbies from the rest simply by them having ear buds in their ears. They will leave something they really need at home or cut down on the food they carry so they can have a 3 pound brick in their pack that will charge their phone. Us old timers may not have the latest and greatest IPhone but we do have something that will help us out in a jam that these entitled hikers don't: We have Common Sense. We carry a real map that is bigger than 3" x 6" image. We carry a compass and we know how to use it. I even carry a map tool that I can plot my own GPS coordinates. We carry survival kits and eblankets in case we or another hiker gets into a bad situation. We took the time to learn some basic first aid so we can do more than phone for help, that is if there is a signal. We took the time to learn about where we are going to hike and we pack accordingly. Yes we carry cell phones but we only use them to call home for a check in and to call for help. No time for games or music. The rest of the time it is shut off and stuck in my shirt pocket.

    Let me tell you sir, my hike is not yours, my feelings aren't yours, my opinions aren't yours, so where do you get off telling the rest of us that we are doing it wrong or even when presented with overwhelming evidence of over crowding you continue to say show me where. Why should we? Are you going to wave your magic wand and fix it? I have covered a lot of trail miles in my life so don't try to tell me anything until you have walked in my shoes. Good day sir.
    Blackheart

  10. #50

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    You know how the Ignore function works, right?

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllDownhillFromHere View Post
    You know how the Ignore function works, right?
    IT is tempting to use the "ignore" on this annoyingly heated thread, but somehow I find it too fascinating.... basically, I just think this is in the "much ado about nothing" category. I also wonder if those that are so adamantly opposed to trail magic/hiker feeds are actually (current) hikers????? Perhaps this is a perfect example of "cyber hikers" and being disconnected from actual hiking. Having hiked maybe 20,000 miles in the last 50 years (probably more, just a guess), I don't remember a single instance where trail magic went unappreciated by both myself and witnessing other hiker's glee when happening upon it, with of course the AT (which I have done in its entirety) having the most frequent magic/feeds.

    All that being said, I do tend to agree that anywhere near the summit of Max Patch, or even the parking lot below the summit is a poor place to have a feed, as has already been said, a road crossing near MP would be nice, I tend towards having a feed/magic site north of Max Patch rather than south, but perhaps that crossing just south of MP would be OK.

    Some CO trail veterans and ourselves were just talking a couple days ago about having a feed for CO trail folks this summer, and the silliness on this thread does not deter us a bit in our enthusiasm for doing so. We, as most do, would keep it modest and completely clean.

    It goes without saying, these are just my own opinions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeBill View Post
    SNIPPED A BUNCH OF STUFF
    Thanks for the morning guffaw. Dude, how old do you think I am? I will hazard a guess that I bagged my first 14'er before you backpacked your first mile! (you are 2 years older than me, old man!) I don't know how many miles you think I have, but it is a lot. Not as many as CR, but a lot. Anyway, enough with the cred check...

    HYOH. Think your own thoughts. But, when you post your own thoughts to a public forum, be prepared to have your thoughts debated.

    I thought I was a crusty old curmudgeon....thanks for taking that mantle off my shoulders!

    And, CR, I gotta kinda disagree with ya on Max Patch. I just don't see it like many folks do. It's a horrible scar on the mountain line. You can see the rape of the mountain for miles and miles. CR, you know what it looks like out west when a mining company chops the top off a mountain. Same thing here, to me. So, since the mountain has already been defiled and the USFS saw fit to open it with a road and parking lot, it is fair use for anything. To me, a hiker feed or trail magic is the second least offensive use of the Patch. Of course, everyone's MMV.

    And, yes, if you are at a road crossing the AT and are offering free shuttle rides to town, you are taking money out of the pockets of people who can ill afford to lose the business. If you can't see that....

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareBear View Post

    And, CR, I gotta kinda disagree with ya on Max Patch. I just don't see it like many folks do. It's a horrible scar on the mountain line. You can see the rape of the mountain for miles and miles. CR, you know what it looks like out west when a mining company chops the top off a mountain. Same thing here, to me. So, since the mountain has already been defiled and the USFS saw fit to open it with a road and parking lot, it is fair use for anything. To me, a hiker feed or trail magic is the second least offensive use of the Patch. Of course, everyone's MMV.
    No worries on disagreeing, seems like we agree on most things.... and the parking lot really would be OK I suppose, but I just seem to like the magic at road crossings. I sure don't see Max Patch as a "scar"... we were hiking through there again just 3-4 weeks ago, I enjoyed it as much as the first time in 2013. Couple pics of "the scar":
    Attached Images Attached Images

  14. #54
    Getting out as much as I can..which is never enough. :) Mags's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colorado_rob View Post
    All that being said, I do tend to agree that anywhere near the summit of Max Patch, or even the parking lot below the summit is a poor place to have a feed, as has already been said, a road crossing near MP would be nice, I tend towards having a feed/magic site north of Max Patch rather than south, but perhaps that crossing just south of MP would be OK.
    A nice compromise, I think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JumpMaster Blaster View Post
    Can I count on you to donate to my thru hike? GoFundMe info wil lbe sent via PM.
    I would suggest posting your link publically instead and let people decide for themselves how they wish to give back to the trail. There are certainly many who wish to help out thru hikers, during my thru just by maintaining a email list and emailing people from the trail who requested it I got many offers of support, including stays, care packages, meeting up with them, cards and money, I also get overwhelming support in the form of replies, they loved my emails, waited for them and wanted to see what is next, I also got many prayers for my travels.

    However posting your link on Whiteblaze typically gets under people's skin here, and one can expect some very negative comments, ignore them and HYOH, not theirs.

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mags View Post
    A nice compromise, I think.
    YOUR compromise, sorry, I should have given you credit from your post at the start of this, er, interesting thread....

  17. #57
    Getting out as much as I can..which is never enough. :) Mags's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colorado_rob View Post
    YOUR compromise, sorry, I should have given you credit from your post at the start of this, er, interesting thread....
    Not looking for crdedit, honest. Just a way to smooth the waters. I just agree with what you wrote, too.
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  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Wolf View Post
    nothing magical about it
    Amen!

    This is just a hiker feed/handout.
    The older I get, the faster I hiked.

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ankle Bone View Post
    Amen!

    This is just a hiker feed/handout.
    So, is there some movement among the WB community to take away the age-old term "trail magic" ????????? It's just a phrase, and can be as modest as a jug of water along a dry stretch of trail. Despite the Extreme Wisdom of LW, I think even He will not affect the use of the classic moniker: "Trail Magic".

  20. #60
    Registered User BuckeyeBill's Avatar
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    To CR: Trail magic is fine with me. I have been a participant in a few. It concerns me when it is announced a week in advance and another is scheduled for the following weekend. Trail Magic is suppose to be a surprise to the hikers. To be honest I think this TM event is great and I wish the organizer a lot of luck. It is a very unselfish move on his part.

    To SB: Let's smoke a peace pipe. I started out in 1974 with a rim to rim to rim of the Grand Canyon at the age of 14. I've have a little over 14,000 miles. I lost a lot of time when I was a law enforcement officer. I have been working for myself for a while now and can take off for extended periods of time, which makes me happy and relaxed. I have about three years worth of work sitting at the shop, and I hope by then I can take the summer off for an AT thru hike.

    It just kind of got to me when you jumped on solace for what he said. If my figures are correct, he shuttled over 2,200 hikers each year. I feel that is a good cross section of hikers and pretty much qualifies him to discuss the attitude of hikers. I also have seen a drop in the area of work ethic. I finally was able hired some crusty old geezers like myself and we get along just fine.

    I agree that there was damaged done to Max Patch that could be reversed simply by replanting, but I think the NPS likes it as it is. Again I extend to you an olive branch and say good hiking to you.
    Blackheart

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