Kathryn Jones is attempting a selfsupported record.

[full conditions]

In rough order:
If we know who the person is we rehash briefly how much we like that person.
If we don't know who the person is- we debate/trash/defend that person.
Assuming it's worth talking about then we talk a little about the hike itself.
Those who hate FKT's jumps in to trash FKT's. So that debate rages and criss-crosses back an forth until those people move on or become interested.
Those who are mildly interested or confused about the whole thing ask questions, those get answered, those answers get discussed, and more questions persist.
The folks who generally only "tune-in" for speed hiking catch up with each other and say hi.

That usually burns up the first 4-10 pages of an FKT thread right there... eventually the attempt might even start!

If the event starts we hem and haw about that a bit... though most of the haters are gone by then... a few will spring back up and a page can be lost clearing that up.
Since there is literally absolutely nothing to talk about when you get a minor milage update once per day in a roughly 60 day event... the thread turns into the general FKT water cooler and anything and everything related to FKT's gets discussed and rehashed like a bunch of pent up fantasy football players watching the NFL draft.

If it's looking good then much like a bunch of typical sports nerds a spreadsheet will be created and minutia will be discussed in painful detail.

Assuming failure- the talk will still continue much the same and generally unaffected by the FKT itself for a good few weeks after- then those who tuned in for FKT season will move on or wait for the next one.

Assuming success- There still isn't much to talk about in the middle 2/3rds of the event.
If you're NOBO- you get a good start or you don't. IF you're SOBO... we hang on till about Maine Junction.
If you're NOBO- we tune in around Maine Junction and actually get hopeful if you hit southern Maine on pace.
If you're SOBO- It's mostly filler until the smokies once you cleared Vermont.
That is only from a spectator point of view... so to speak. There's some good days, or bad days... but if it is a success as whole you get through it more or less on track.

Finally several pages of well wishes, atta boy/girl, congrats and similar will occur. They will be sprinkled with a few comments involving a "Stunt" "Discgrace" and trail founders performing violent gymnastics in their graves... but mostly that will blow by in the shuffle.


This year I think we did pretty good thus far blowing through most of the preliminaries and even moved on to the money topic and a few things not covered before.
The haters were somewhat limited and that died down faster than usual. People were generally respectful and remembered there is a human and fellow hiker actually trying this at the end of the day.


But as far as that comment about five guys posting over and over- that's total BS

LOL…. I apologize for the unintentional knicker twisting. I was employing a rhetorical device (apparently unsuccessfully) called “exaggeration for effect”. Yes, I’m well aware that there are more than five guys who care about long distance trail running and AT records. As a long time trail runner and former thru hiker I happen to be one of them – I once (a long time ago) took a shot at the record for the Smokies AT traverse (it did not end well). I am full of both admiration and awe at those intrepid souls who take on these kinds of challenges. My point however inartfully made, that the market for interest in long distance trail running and FKT’s for long distance trail runs and hikes is relatively small and thus the folks who are doing said attempts are likely not doing for the money but rather for the doing of the thing. And that was all.

[4eyedbuzzard]

The WNBA averaged 413,000 viewers on average per game in 2016. It gives away tickets to games to attract enough fans to fill seats. And it isn't profitable with that many fans. LD speed hiking would be lucky to attract 1/100 of that number of viewers. There's more people interested in Ancient Aliens and Oak Island than LD speed hiking. There's just nothing there.

[Just Bill]

LOL…. I apologize for the unintentional knicker twisting. I was employing a rhetorical device (apparently unsuccessfully) called “exaggeration for effect”. Yes, I’m well aware that there are more than five guys who care about long distance trail running and AT records. As a long time trail runner and former thru hiker I happen to be one of them – I once (a long time ago) took a shot at the record for the Smokies AT traverse (it did not end well). I am full of both admiration and awe at those intrepid souls who take on these kinds of challenges. My point however inartfully made, that the market for interest in long distance trail running and FKT’s for long distance trail runs and hikes is relatively small and thus the folks who are doing said attempts are likely not doing for the money but rather for the doing of the thing. And that was all.

LOL…. I apologize for the unintentional knicker twisting. I was employing a sarcastical device (apparently unsuccessfully) called “feigned anger for effect”.

[Rmcpeak]

Day 7 45 miles (wow).


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[Kookork]

The interest in FKT is kind of like car racing. You do not watch people driving their car in their daily life but put them in a race and people start to show interest. It is still driving but it is competitive driving and a prospect of glory or failure is attractive.

[fiddlehead]

So, I've been thinking about this self-supported vs non-supported thing a lot lately.
What if there's a trail magic thing going on with someone cooking (and giving away free) burgers at a road crossing for hikers?
Is the FKT attempt person allowed to eat a few?
If so, what if this happens often?
If not, what's the difference if they are free or not?
If not, what's the difference if you buy one in town?

So, I've come to the conclusion that the only way to be self-supported is to carry everything you need with you.
At first I thought it would be impossible.
But the more I thought about it, and remembered Farley Mowat's book "Never cry wolf", I think it's possible.

You'd have to carry a lot of dried pasta of some kind (Ramen?, rice noodles? something lightweight for sure), And a lot of dried veggies or garlic, salt, vitamins, etc.
But, you could probably do it living on mice.
That's right: Mice.
There's plenty of them.
No law against killing them (that I know of)
No seasonal issues (like you'd have with fishing or hunting)

Now, maybe you couldn't make it all the way (without dying), but someone could (my wife is from northeastern Thailand where many different insects are a source of food) (not to say she could hike 2,000+ miles, LOL) But, I've seen and hiked with some pretty tough monks who don't eat much but have a great attitude. (of course they have no reason to try to set a record)
(or someone could) (Tom Brown ?)

And if successful, you could claim a set of new rules.
Unsupported, could then mean "Unsupported"

Just some thoughts for the rules people (who seem to agree that she is disqualified for getting in a car.)

[Venchka]

Or how about a 12 mile "Do Over" on a side trail of similar or greater difficulty as the 12 mile hitch? Say somewhere in the Whites?
Wayne


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[Chair-man]

Day 7 45 miles (wow).

wow is right, her best day yet. this could get interesting.

[Just Bill]

So, I've been thinking about this self-supported vs non-supported thing a lot lately.
What if there's a trail magic thing going on with someone cooking (and giving away free) burgers at a road crossing for hikers?
Is the FKT attempt person allowed to eat a few?
If so, what if this happens often?
If not, what's the difference if they are free or not?
If not, what's the difference if you buy one in town?

So, I've come to the conclusion that the only way to be self-supported is to carry everything you need with you.
At first I thought it would be impossible.
But the more I thought about it, and remembered Farley Mowat's book "Never cry wolf", I think it's possible.

You'd have to carry a lot of dried pasta of some kind (Ramen?, rice noodles? something lightweight for sure), And a lot of dried veggies or garlic, salt, vitamins, etc.
But, you could probably do it living on mice.
That's right: Mice.
There's plenty of them.
No law against killing them (that I know of)
No seasonal issues (like you'd have with fishing or hunting)

Now, maybe you couldn't make it all the way (without dying), but someone could (my wife is from northeastern Thailand where many different insects are a source of food) (not to say she could hike 2,000+ miles, LOL) But, I've seen and hiked with some pretty tough monks who don't eat much but have a great attitude. (of course they have no reason to try to set a record)
(or someone could) (Tom Brown ?)

And if successful, you could claim a set of new rules.
Unsupported, could then mean "Unsupported"

Just some thoughts for the rules people (who seem to agree that she is disqualified for getting in a car.)

Flip back a few posts and you'll see the definitions from the FKT site.
unsupported is a legitimate style and has been done on several long trails.
it becomes impractical on the AT...though I am quite guilty of calling it unsupported though the correct term is self-supported. The "self" part is kinda assumed so I'm in that poor habit.

As a bit of a Tom Brown fella at one point...he'd be the first to tell you the impracticality of foraging on a long hike where you also had intentions of maintaining a schedule. I'd also call it too high impact given the setting to forage on the ecosystem. You might also consider watching Alone and see how well those folks did laying in a shelter eating (roughly) 30-70 calorie a pop mice.

Trail magic is legal. I'd cut it simply to prevent ambiguity...but the counterpoint then is how to prove you didn't accept trail magic? It's mostly a moot point but...as it gets more popular it's prescience grows. As discussed before though... until one bests the FKT and includes that guideline to further the standard...there is no reason to limit oneself from it. Matt has some excellent thoughts on the topic in his book as well.
https://www.amazon.com/Fast-Light-Fr.../dp/1514871173

hitching... Matt pioneered the FKT, Anish accepted his guidelines. Whomever comes next is locked in on that issue. It's dead...just needs to be spelled out more clearly and prominently on Peter's site.

[4eyedbuzzard]

So, I've been thinking about this self-supported vs non-supported thing a lot lately.
What if there's a trail magic thing going on with someone cooking (and giving away free) burgers at a road crossing for hikers?
Is the FKT attempt person allowed to eat a few?
If so, what if this happens often?
If not, what's the difference if they are free or not?
If not, what's the difference if you buy one in town?

So, I've come to the conclusion that the only way to be self-supported is to carry everything you need with you.
At first I thought it would be impossible.
But the more I thought about it, and remembered Farley Mowat's book "Never cry wolf", I think it's possible.

You'd have to carry a lot of dried pasta of some kind (Ramen?, rice noodles? something lightweight for sure), And a lot of dried veggies or garlic, salt, vitamins, etc.
But, you could probably do it living on mice.
That's right: Mice.
There's plenty of them.
No law against killing them (that I know of)
No seasonal issues (like you'd have with fishing or hunting)

Now, maybe you couldn't make it all the way (without dying), but someone could (my wife is from northeastern Thailand where many different insects are a source of food) (not to say she could hike 2,000+ miles, LOL) But, I've seen and hiked with some pretty tough monks who don't eat much but have a great attitude. (of course they have no reason to try to set a record)
(or someone could) (Tom Brown ?)

And if successful, you could claim a set of new rules.
Unsupported, could then mean "Unsupported"

Just some thoughts for the rules people (who seem to agree that she is disqualified for getting in a car.)

It's illegal to kill any animal in a National Park, and foraging plants could also illegal under some circumstances. State laws would also apply where applicable, and some may prohibit such practices as well.

[evyck da fleet]

I kinda like the idea that everyone knows where the post offices and grocery stores are beforehand and can plan accordingly as to which ones they want to walk to. It also shouldn't be too difficult to pass up a burger or coke or extra food from a hiker to keep everything as even as possible.

if I'm going to announce I'm trying to break someone's record I'm going to follow their standards. Not having to hike an extra twelve miles because of a ride when one has blisters seems like a nice advantage.

i really don't care who holds the record or what the time is. I just like the theory of setting common ground rules.

Just some thoughts for the rules people (who seem to agree that she is disqualified for getting in a car.)[/QUOTE]

[Just Bill]

Or how about a 12 mile "Do Over" on a side trail of similar or greater difficulty as the 12 mile hitch? Say somewhere in the Whites?
Wayne


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Wayne,
There is a decent amount of precedence in both directions on "make up miles". Though it's mainly only applied to reroutes or maintenance in minor amounts when successful. Some have argued for "penalty miles" of some sort for minor violations but that's never stuck.

Out west...snow conditions and fires can dramatically alter trails and even though you are technically following the official trail route...often the consensus is that the route has been too dramatically changed to count. Same with getting lost and/or doing more miles. You don't get an FKT for not hiking the route.

The burden is always on the participants. It's your problem to research, your problem to stay on route, your burden to document and record your hike. And if questioned by your peers; to defend or withdraw your claim as needed. There have been some very serious debates... the ninja thing last year was nothing really in the FKT world as far as a disputed claim. It was always pretty clean imo...it was all the intangibles that were dramatic.

Brett Maune is the classic case of true drama... if you watch the Barkley Marathon documentary on Netflix you will actually see Brett not only doing well there but literally clearing his name name regarding a disputed (and ultimately awarded) FKT on the JMT. That was brutal.


(though that may be Brett's second Barkley in the video?)

[fiddlehead]

So, get your supply in down at fontana, or up in the northern end before you head into the park.
You most likely wouldn't even be too desperate by the Smokies.
Shenendoah's maybe a bit tougher. But, you could also get a supply in before hand.

I've been thinkin more about this (NO support!) and see many people living off the land here in Thailand.
Some of them carry slingshots (birds, lizards). But most are living off frogs and the sea (low tide scavengers)
So, I think mice would be the way to go on the AT as there are plenty of them.

I'm not saying you'd beat the record.
You'd set a new precedent (category) and a new record.

Shoes would be a problem.
What shoe would make the whole trail? (I don't think anyone going for any kind of record would want to hike in Limmers)

I've seen grown men hacking apart a rotten log to get the snails and larvae out. Both delicacies here.
My wife says: Don't make fun of us who eat ants, until you've tried them" No thanks I say.

I know there's none of you would try this as it would be considered savage.

Trail magic should not be allowed either.
Who's to say you don't have someone jumping around ahead of you, providing trail magic over and over with free hot dogs, burgers, etc. (intentional or not)

Anyway, I realize it takes a mind wide open to seriously consider it.
But, it could be done.

Anyone ever met any breathairians?
I've met 2.
One sailed across the Pacific by himself with no food.
One I talked to for a while who told me she did it for 6 months and used to go out dancing at night sometimes.

Yes, it's not hiking, but it's do-able to the right frame of mind.
Put it all together in the right person, and it can be done.

[Just Bill]

I'm pretty open minded- but bottom line is that the AT is not the place for that type of trip. One of the tenants of Wilderness Survival practice is to practice it sustainably and there are much better places to go to achieve that type of trip.
Shoes- learn to walk barefoot. Brethairians? are you just trolling us? Either way... if such a trip were done I would consider it irresponsible to report it. Some jackass would inevitably follow. And don't get me started on bushcrafting.

If you'd care to speculate:
I do admire Tipi Walter and finding a style of trip that works for him... at the end of the day I'm happy to see folks out in the woods. Mildly inspired by his running "21 days in..." theme a trip that sits in the backburner of my brain would be a "21 days in Virgina" trip. At roughly 500 miles a truly unsupported trip could be done... with the added carrot of completion of that trip in roughly 21 days. 24ish miles per day average is nothing to sneeze at with the inevitable food load required. You would actually need a mildly disciplined pace and level of fitness to do it well IMO. Sure one could really load up Tipi Style with 3lbs per day of food at 63lbs and still be well under his ponderous 100lb loads. But I'm thinking closer to 1.5 or 2lbs per day and a more moderate 50ish pound starting load. This would require some solid Ray Jardine style hiking via tachometer (heartrate) in your pacing so you weren't chewing up 5000cal a day going balls to the wall. You'd need some general creep in pace as you go and likely a few 30's later in the effort. It's not an off the couch trip, but neither is it FKT levels of pain. It's also not subject to the critique often ascribed to Tipi by his detractors: semi-mobile base camping. There would be no caches of gear or replacements, no food caches, no support. Just you and your pack with a hunk of miles in front of you.

Many make much of the trail getting too commercial, too expensive, too focused on town vs. the hike, too easy, or too crowded...too tame and civilized. Or just flat out being much more than an extended quasi-slack pack any idiot can walk. There is nothing to say you NEED to stop at every town or every x miles for resupply. Nobody requiring you to partake of every service, shuttle or opportunity for convenience. Quite a bit of adventure and challenge can be found and I think that such a trip would highlight that. The AT is not wilderness, but it's still quite possible to have a fairly immersive experience and spend a long time in the woods. Adventure is where you find it and how you make it. A bit of a throwback if you like to when 10-14 days out was the standard advanced backpacking trip but interwoven with the lessons learned from the modern LD hiking experience. To me that type of trip is a nice mix of traditional backpacking, LD hiking, FKT type tactics, and good old fashioned woodswalking.

Footnote: this is also a trip that could be expanded on easily... and I suppose is also inspired by Roman Dial's 600 mile trip to the most remote spot on the planet... though not quite as difficult to plan. This is something that could be done in similar style to the most miles in 24 hours trip/FKT that Matt holds. VA and 21 days is a nice solid starting point. Skurka once proposed a similar style trip but abandoned it. I think there is something challenging in it to the current LD hiking philosophy of efficiency and low pack weights via higher mileage days reducing days out between resupply. It also exposes those that only LD hike established trails to the skillset many lament is missing in today's alphabet soup hiker. (to borrow from Mags)

If you simply boiled it down... given 21 days of food... how far could you get? The AT is ideal for this type of trip as the aforementioned services provide a bit of a safety net as well as a nice swath of trail to pick/choose/strategize your chosen section and ample opportunities to cut it short or run it long as the conditions dictate.

[Rmcpeak]

Day 8 40 miles. Got a trailname: "Hardcore." Approx miles behind Annish pace: 11.5. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

[Rmcpeak]

http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/201...html?camp&camp

had to look that up... you kids and yer talky stuff.
#stilldon'tgethashtags

I think I've got a few years on you, pal.

[Just Bill]

I think I've got a few years on you, pal.

I'm older than I smell.

Day 8 40 miles. Got a trailname: "Hardcore." Approx miles behind Annish pace: 11.5. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Sigh... good for her. Seriously.

But if one of you is on instagram it would be a serious kindness to just tell her that hitching DQ's her. As someone pointed out above- there's a decent chance it was more than one hitch if she's going with a low carry weight/frequent resupply strategy.

From a cynics point of view... if she pulled it off the controversy would generate PR... so carry on I guess.

From the more human side of things- its fairly cruel to let her keep slugging it out if she truly is a contender. If it's just going to be an admirable hike... my admiration is standing by at the ready. But if it's meant to be an FKT that dream is dead.

[chknfngrs]

I'm following her Instagram feed but not sure I'd be the right entity to raise this

[rocketsocks]

The best advice I heard a page or so ago was to head back to springer and start over, with each passing day that choice dwindles just a bit. Already got her legs pumping and primed for a serious FKT attempt, call the first one a shake down hike.

[kythruhiker]

The best advice I heard a page or so ago was to head back to springer and start over, with each passing day that choice dwindles just a bit. Already got her legs pumping and primed for a serious FKT attempt, call the first one a shake down hike.

That'd be the best case scenario if she cares about actual besting Anish's FKT, which I'd assume she does based on the fact that she posted her intent on the FKT thread. Seems like she might have the legs for it, especially dealing with foot problems so early on. If she'd take a couple weeks to heal up after this shake down, she might have a legit chance.