LNT cat hole depth

[Traillium]

Oh crap — why not post this observation? …

I returned in mid-November to the exact spot I'd done a boot-scrape shallow cat hole late last May. In my defence, I had been desperate desperate desperate, and despite having an excellent titanium trowel that I faithfully used elsewhere along the trail, the only thing I could do in my haste was a hurried boot-scrape hole before lowering my backside … I then followed my usual technique of stirring the result with a stout stick, covering it with the material I'd scraped off, and the placing a pair of sticks crossed in an 'X'.

I know it was the exact spot because of the crossed-sticks and the identifiable tree.

So when I was back in the area mid-November, i searched out the 'X marks the spot'. I used a stick to carefully pull back the undisturbed crossed sticks, and gently move the accumulated leaf litter.

• I saw nothing to indicate that I had used that exact spot, other than that the soil was perhaps a bit darker.
• No sign of TP.
• No sign of disturbance by any animal big enough to move the sticks.
• No surface tunnels or groves to indicate any mouse-sized disturbance recently.

I've long thought that the 6" mantra about cat holes might well have something to do with western dryer soils where NOLS is.

I've also long known from digging (with students) countless soil horizons in our various soils here in Southern Ontario that our active soil horizons are remarkably shallow, including in deciduous forests. 15cm/6in is almost always well down below the most active surficial layers.

So … I know I'm poking a Holy Cat Hole …

Has anyone else gone back and checked your own cat holes? [… PERHAPS THIS SHOULD BE A CONDITION BEFORE YOU REPLY …]

What is the precise research on which 6" is based?

Does 6" involve a 'safe' and conservative margin of error?

Does 6" relate more to dryer western soils, perhaps with a greater less active surface humus layer?

Am I in deep do-do? (Is that colloquial enough to mean deep excremental trouble?)

[ScareBear]

I.........ummm........yeah..........no.......becau se.....well.....

I've never posted an "X" to mark the spot...although now you have me thinking about a GPS waypoint to my poo....which sounds very very twisted...

[Sapelo]

The Center for Leave No Trace Ethics in Boulder, CO, actually looks for "Citizen Scientists" to conduct cat hole research. Contact them and they can fill you in on how to conduct a science based approach to documenting how fast feces and toliet paper dissolves in your area.

[blw2]

my guess is that it's a nice round number .... 1/2 foot....
and it's a decent enough depth to get the stink away and to reduce animal exposure
and yes I wouldn't be a bit surprised if going deep like that actually preserves it longer than a near zero depth

[Tipi Walter]

The deeper the better is my opinion but then I live in the Southeast where digging catholes is fairly easy using the titanium tip of my hiking pole. Some soils are better than others of course. For an emergency dump you can always dig a deeper hole right next to the new-born turtlehead and then scoot the Turdage over with a stick and let it plop down into the hole. Bury. I never ever leave my "after birth" on the ground no matter what and never leave my toilet paper visible.

One time I dug the perfect cathole (winter of 1983) and pushed out a perfect specimen but unfortunately my boot laces were in the Turd Hole thereby liberally coated with fresh effluvia. Newbs take note.

[HooKooDooKu]

As stated on the LNT web site:

Proper disposal of human waste is important to avoid pollution of water sources, avoid the negative implications of someone else finding it, minimize the possibility of spreading disease, and maximize the rate of decomposition.

The other aspect is simplicity...
While "in some places" a shallower cat hole might actually help decomposition... 6" seems to be "good enough" everywhere (that burial is appropriate).

To put it another way, we already have enough problems just getting people of follow the simple principle of "dig a 6" deep hole". We sure as **** don't need to confuse the issue and say (dig it 8" deep out there, 4" deep over there, and 6" deep over there.

[Slo-go'en]

I can rarely dig 6" down. Just scrape away the top layer of leaf litter and get into the top soil. Do your business, cover and stir a little. It will decompose quick enough and fertilize that little spot.

[Traillium]

The Center for Leave No Trace Ethics in Boulder, CO, actually looks for "Citizen Scientists" to conduct cat hole research. Contact them and they can fill you in on how to conduct a science based approach to documenting how fast feces and toliet paper dissolves in your area.

Great idea! I'll follow through on that.

[Traillium]

my guess is that it's a nice round number .... 1/2 foot....
and it's a decent enough depth to get the stink away and to reduce animal exposure
and yes I wouldn't be a bit surprised if going deep like that actually preserves it longer than a near zero depth

You're thinking along the same lines as I am.

[Tipi Walter]

Somebody did exhaustive study at Backpacking Light.com on the different decomposition times of various toilet papers---sani wipes, wet wipes, paper towels, toilet paper etc.

[Traillium]

Yeah, I've done that as well, Tipi.
My particular mess resembled a bear-on-blueberries slurry … My good stirring was cathartic …

[Traillium]

So far, good feedback. Thanks!

… Who has ever checked on the progress of your own dumps? …

[Tipi Walter]

Yeah, I've done that as well, Tipi.
My particular mess resembled a bear-on-blueberries slurry … My good stirring was cathartic …

We each have our own names for them. Mine I call my pancake batters . . . . or the 20 inch snake coiled in on itself. It's time to worry when your turd has a vestigial hand which trips you up as you prepare to walk away.

[Engine]

I.........ummm........yeah..........no.......becau se.....well.....

I've never posted an "X" to mark the spot...although now you have me thinking about a GPS waypoint to my poo....which sounds very very twisted...

A whole new type of geocache...

[Engine]

...One time I dug the perfect cathole (winter of 1983) and pushed out a perfect specimen but unfortunately my boot laces were in the Turd Hole thereby liberally coated with fresh effluvia. Newbs take note.

Experience is the best teacher. I was reading a trail journal a while back and the author expressed her utter disgust as she was setting up her tent in near dark conditions and couldn't figure out what the goo on her hands and the tent was...until she smelled it.

[Traveler]

Catholes provide far more protection of human health than a lot of people realize, though for some it seems impractical, time consuming, and/or unnecessary. This issue is in close company to shelters that have many uses (and like privies, many detractors), chief among them is to allow a sustainable AT to exist despite the tens of thousands of visitors who walk the trail in part or whole every year.

The depth of catholes of 6-inches to 8-inches (4-inches to 6-inches in desert climate) is not an arbitrary number. Surface water from rain and snow melt will carry bacteria from human waste a considerable distance. This compromises water sources many hundreds of feet from the source. The recommended depth of catholes allows fecal content to remain in place, using rainwater to break it down in place. It also avoids having it wash away in heavy weather events as it often does in simple heel indentation disturbance of the organic surface layer of soil or worse, placing some duff on top of it and walking off unconcerned. Careless/unconcerned fecal management is the primary reason I treat water from any source along the AT.

The management of human waste is a significant aspect to the sustainability of the AT. Disregarding the basic tenets of LNT waste guidelines directly impacts that sustainability. Unfortunately, this may be one of those issues that if it has to be explained, it's likely not to be understood.

[dervari]

Experience is the best teacher. I was reading a trail journal a while back and the author expressed her utter disgust as she was setting up her tent in near dark conditions and couldn't figure out what the goo on her hands and the tent was...until she smelled it.

She could have been at fault if she was stealth camping.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T337A using Tapatalk

[Tipi Walter]

Experience is the best teacher. I was reading a trail journal a while back and the author expressed her utter disgust as she was setting up her tent in near dark conditions and couldn't figure out what the goo on her hands and the tent was...until she smelled it.

Reminds me of a true story camping on Slickrock Creek in the Kilmer-Slickrock wilderness in NC. I left camp barefoot on Turd Patrol (not to find turds but to make a turd deposit into my Special Account). I left the tent and climbed up a steep hill to reach a level area about 75 feet from camp. As I prepared to dig out a cathole my toes squished thru a foul substance which turned out to be a barely visible pile of human feces and it went up into my toes like toejam.

In a panic I ran down to the creek to wash off my feet and vowed to never leave camp again unless I'm in my crocs.

[Traillium]

Catholes provide far more protection of human health than a lot of people realize, though for some it seems impractical, time consuming, and/or unnecessary. This issue is in close company to shelters that have many uses (and like privies, many detractors), chief among them is to allow a sustainable AT to exist despite the tens of thousands of visitors who walk the trail in part or whole every year.

The depth of catholes of 6-inches to 8-inches (4-inches to 6-inches in desert climate) is not an arbitrary number. Surface water from rain and snow melt will carry bacteria from human waste a considerable distance. This compromises water sources many hundreds of feet from the source. The recommended depth of catholes allows fecal content to remain in place, using rainwater to break it down in place. It also avoids having it wash away in heavy weather events as it often does in simple heel indentation disturbance of the organic surface layer of soil or worse, placing some duff on top of it and walking off unconcerned. Careless/unconcerned fecal management is the primary reason I treat water from any source along the AT.

The management of human waste is a significant aspect to the sustainability of the AT. Disregarding the basic tenets of LNT waste guidelines directly impacts that sustainability. Unfortunately, this may be one of those issues that if it has to be explained, it's likely not to be understood.

I agree with your points, Traveler. And those are the reasons that I do dig proper normally.

I especially appreciate your pointing out the necessity of effective cat-holing around even moderately used campsites.

I'm pointing out one instance of which I know the details.

I also return to the question as to how many of us have actually tested our own cat holes after any period of time?

[4eyedbuzzard]

... As I prepared to dig out a cathole my toes squished thru a foul substance which turned out to be a barely visible pile of human feces and it went up into my toes like toejam.

In a panic I ran down to the creek to wash off my feet and vowed to never leave camp again unless I'm in my crocs.

So, if you wear crocs, then step in $#!t, and then tell others, people will likely say your tale is a croc of $#!t. Maybe best not to admit such things.