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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alligator View Post
    The north bound hikers, no way to verify.
    The smell is usually a giveaway

  2. #42
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    More information, with numbers:
    http://www.baxterstateparkauthority....ker%20Mgmt.pdf

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  3. #43
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    Minutes from the October meeting:
    http://www.baxterstateparkauthority....2016_10-14.pdf

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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alligator View Post

    As far as the AT Hiker permits not being used Water Rat, it seems like you are thinkiing that they are assigned ahead of time? I didn't read it that way. It says you can get one when you get there, if there are any left, I didn't see anything about signing up.
    .
    The real problem won't be people who grab a permit and then don't use it. The real problem will be people who use a permit who do not deserve one (Example: Section hiker permits are all used up, so they claim they are a thru-hiker (or visa-versa)). There is no way to verify anyone's claim to a permit.
    “For of all sad words of tongue or pen,
    the saddest are these, 'It might have been.”


    John Greenleaf Whittier

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by imscotty View Post
    The real problem won't be people who grab a permit and then don't use it. The real problem will be people who use a permit who do not deserve one (Example: Section hiker permits are all used up, so they claim they are a thru-hiker (or visa-versa)). There is no way to verify anyone's claim to a permit.
    Hadn't thought of that, but it does create the potential for serious issues, especially once late August and September come as larger numbers begin to arrive.
    “He is richest who is content with the least, for content is the wealth of nature.” –Socrates

  6. #46

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    If BST really wanted to control the numbers they should have divided the permits equally between NOBO, SOBO and fippers.

  7. #47

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    If the current issues cannot be resolved or are exacerbated, the Authority may further limit access to the Park by AT hikers.


    This is a shot fired across ATCs bow.

    They still dont want to expend existing levels of manpower assisting and policing AT hikers. This is only phase 1 I suspect.....

    Because, as you know, they asked the ATC to do something, and they really got so far......nothing. a few flipfloppers, but still massive increases.

    The ATC needs to control the flow of hikers expecting to enter BSP, themselves.

    This is also a FU to attempting to drastically displace nobo to sobo or flip flops without limit, which was ATCs only plan...
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 02-02-2017 at 14:14.

  8. #48
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    The minutes are worth a read. The Baxter State Park Authority seems to have a terrible opinion of AT hikers (specifically their vulgar behavior at the peak), and the people in the field seem to have a positive opinion of AT hikers (described as being respectful).

    Some part of this may be a difference in economic background. I imagine the average through hiker may seem a vagabond to the elite. It also seems that 'bad behavior' by any visitor to BSP is automatically assumed to be coming from the AT community. They clearly expressed a poor opinion of the ATC.
    “For of all sad words of tongue or pen,
    the saddest are these, 'It might have been.”


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  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by imscotty View Post
    The minutes are worth a read. The Baxter State Park Authority seems to have a terrible opinion of AT hikers (specifically their vulgar behavior at the peak), and the people in the field seem to have a positive opinion of AT hikers (described as being respectful).

    Some part of this may be a difference in economic background. I imagine the average through hiker may seem a vagabond to the elite. It also seems that 'bad behavior' by any visitor to BSP is automatically assumed to be coming from the AT community. They clearly expressed a poor opinion of the ATC.
    Might be so
    But it doesnt matter
    Your on someone elses property, they make the rules.
    What they think..is all that matters, whether right or wrong

    What seems clear, is they were serious
    And ATC has sat on hands doing little to address concerns

    Except to displace new hiker increases to sobo or flipflop. And advertise a bit about bad behaviors.

    Heres the kick

    They dont apparently want any AT hiker increases..at all

    Seems to be a massive disconnect. How?
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 02-02-2017 at 14:46.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alligator View Post
    No real way to verify actual status. A south bound hiker could be a section hiker, flip flopper, or actual SOBO. Even the actual SOBO doesn't know, the majority don't complete. The north bound hikers, no way to verify. Considering some percentage of north bounders skip sections of the trail (you all know who you are), they are going to chew through section and flip-flop permits. Fall sectioners and flip-floppers are going to be shut out. Further amplifying the bubble as they scramble to arrive earlier in the park.

    It's just a cap mainly with a bunch of extra paper work thrown in.
    This is my concern as well. So much for me running up to BSP to "knock out" Katahdin as a section hiker. That's a lot of money to spend flying up to Maine to do a dayhike.
    "The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep."

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by swisscross View Post
    If BST really wanted to control the numbers they should have divided the permits equally between NOBO, SOBO and fippers.
    Gotta disagree on that. That would be far too arbitrary and they can control numbers by doing just what they did. After all, what other reason would they have for doing it at all?
    “He is richest who is content with the least, for content is the wealth of nature.” –Socrates

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by imscotty View Post
    The real problem won't be people who grab a permit and then don't use it. The real problem will be people who use a permit who do not deserve one (Example: Section hiker permits are all used up, so they claim they are a thru-hiker (or visa-versa)). There is no way to verify anyone's claim to a permit.
    I've already seen more than a few posts (on another social media site) about NOBOs staring this year doing just that.
    "The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep."

  13. #53

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    Actually, progress by the ATC was noted in the minutes of the Authority, I think it is the 5/2016 minutes. But then....Woodcock's wife heard some vulgarity and there was some nudity reported on the trail (summit I think). Woodcock is one of the three Authority members, he is Comm. of Inland Fish and Game. Now, yes the Authority has a right to make rules, but by Maine Law, they are bound by certain rulemaking requirements. That's probably good, because the switch in attitude is perhaps arbitrary and capricious. There were comments from the AT trail overseer (don't have their title handy) saying 99% of the hikers are respectful. It would be great if everybody was but that's pretty decent. Further, if this is a major substansive rule (Maine definition), they can't just make the rule amongst themselves. If it is considered that way, they have to jump through a lot more hoops than they have to create this level of impact/restriction. They went their own way, yet the trail is designated in the National Scenic Trails Act. There are Maine laws that concern rules that are implemented and are more restrictive then the federal law. I'm not sure they considered that. So no the Authority may not just have a right to do it their way, they are bound by their own laws.
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    Your on someone elses property, they make the rules.
    What they think..is all that matters, whether right or wrong
    Agree. It's their rules and their reality. I can't see how the ATC will be able to repair this relationship in the long run. Possibly they could have someone at the Birches, and another at the summit to monitor behavior. But without any enforcement authority that might not make any difference. Plus, by the time they witnessed and addressed any bad behavior, other non thru hikers may also have seen it, and the damage would be done.

  15. #55
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    Default Permit now required at Baxter for AT hikers


  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alligator View Post

    As far as the AT Hiker permits not being used Water Rat, it seems like you are thinkiing that they are assigned ahead of time? I didn't read it that way. It says you can get one when you get there, if there are any left, I didn't see anything about signing up.
    Someone else commented on the worry that all the permits would be grabbed-up.

    My comment is based on what I read in the "specifics that AT Hikers will need to know." It says the AT Hiker Permit Cards will be available when the Hunt Trail opens to the hiking in the spring (usually in June).

    One can pick up their permit in advance, if they are a section-hiker, flip-flopper, or SOBO... They would just need to know their start date, or reservation date, and show up. I read the words of BSP to mean the permits would be available on a first come, first served basis. One would just have to show up to claim theirs. Perhaps I misinterpreted that?

    I didn't mean to suggest you were panicking. I was just telling the prospective hikers this is not something to panic over at this time. There are lots of people who are new to the AT and do not know of previous ATC discussions with the park. There seemed to be some worry that if one did not race up the trail, the park would be closed to them. If one is NOBO and they make it to Monson, the visitor center should be able to tell them how many (roughly) hiker permits are available. If none, then the hiker still has time to apply for a day use permit, or campsite.

  17. #57
    Registered User Engine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zed View Post
    Agree. It's their rules and their reality. I can't see how the ATC will be able to repair this relationship in the long run. Possibly they could have someone at the Birches, and another at the summit to monitor behavior. But without any enforcement authority that might not make any difference. Plus, by the time they witnessed and addressed any bad behavior, other non thru hikers may also have seen it, and the damage would be done.
    In point of fact, maybe we should have been policing our own and we wouldn't be on this slippery slope. I'm all for HYOH to a point, but by turning a blind eye to unacceptable behavior, have we not been guilty to some degree ourselves?
    “He is richest who is content with the least, for content is the wealth of nature.” –Socrates

  18. #58
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    Actually, I think that the ATC was being responsive to BSP's concerns. They began their registration system in an attempt to spread out the bubble, they have been working on improving hiker education on LNT, they opened the new AT Visitor center in Monson, Maine this past year to educate hikers.

    All this may have been too little to late for the BSP Authority, but you think that the BSPA would have been willing to keep working cooperatively towards a mutual solution. They implemented this unilaterally. Clearly the relationship has soured. Woodcock, Denico and Bissell seem to be openly hostile to AT hikers.
    “For of all sad words of tongue or pen,
    the saddest are these, 'It might have been.”


    John Greenleaf Whittier

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engine View Post
    In point of fact, maybe we should have been policing our own and we wouldn't be on this slippery slope. I'm all for HYOH to a point, but by turning a blind eye to unacceptable behavior, have we not been guilty to some degree ourselves?
    I get the feeling that the whole Scott Jurek Baxter Peak incident is still burning in the back of Bissell's mind.
    “For of all sad words of tongue or pen,
    the saddest are these, 'It might have been.”


    John Greenleaf Whittier

  20. #60

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    Not like there aren't ways around this if and when they hit the limit.

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