White Mountains

[IslandPete]

Are there enough shelters/campsites to plan to reach one everyday? Or do you need to rely on the huts? What about back country or dispersed camping? Are the huts even possible if I have a dog? I read somewhere that there is one stretch of 40 miles between shelters with only huts?

[peakbagger]

Sorry nsherry61, but you are reading rules that aren't there. Trust me, many a person has been confused by this pamphlet and I expect the FS doesn't mind that confusion.

Page 2 covers Leave No Trace principles, the FS is not enforcing Leave no Trace guidelines. In the section "Travel and Camp on durable surfaces"the 200 foot reference is a guideline (nice to do but not gotta do). Now go onto Page 3 that calls out the places where the 200 foot rule specifically applies and where if caught the hiker can be busted. I see 4 water bodies listed and there are a lot more water bodies along the AT than the 4 called out. Now lets go through the trails listed and see which ones are actually the AT. The AT South of Moosilaukee is called out quite clearly so that's one, The whites are north of Moosilaukee so this prohibition is not applicable to the whites all the way to Maine. Liberty Springs Trail is also the AT route so that's a second occurrence, the rest of the trails are highly popular trails some which intersect with the AT. A hiker must be aware of the intersecting trails as some of them might be logical way of getting down off the ridge below treeline. The 1/4 mile rules around developed facilities applies sporadically all along the AT but the vast a majority of outside these spots.

With the exception of a very short section of the Great Gulf Wilderness, the AT does not go into any other WMNF wilderness area but it does skirt two others (Pemi and Dry River) . In this case within the boundary, the 200 foot rules would apply but in most cases, the AT is outside the statutory boundary line of the wilderness areas as otherwise it makes trail maintenance a PITA. Much but not all of these boundaries are above treeline so the no above treeline rule would take precedent.

A popular example of legal on trail camping is between Mt Pierce and Mt Eisenhower. Many NOBO thruhikers stop at Mitzpah (Nauman Tentsite) for supper but they push on past Mt Pierce to the sag between Pierce and Eisenhower so to get head start on the long day to Madison Hut (if they are skipping Lake of the Crowds). The trees are over 8 feet for about 1/4 to 1/2 mile. Its dense spruce fir but there are several flat ledges and other flat areas immediately adjacent to the AT. There is even a fairly reliable water source near the beginning of the above treeline section just north of this location. Per the regulations, this section of the AT (part of the Crawford Path) is not called out specifically on page 3 and as its below treeline thus there is no prohibition to camping right on the trail. I have been through this area more than few times at or around dusk in good weather and inevitably all the spots are full of what appears to be thru hikers. One may argue that they are not doing LNT but barring a forest service special designation they are perfectly legal per the regulations in place. There are also a couple of camping spots immediately south of Haystack, they are just wide spots in the woods bit enough for one tent but are technically below treeline. The Pemi wilderness area boundary is slightly east of the AT centerline so these spots are not in the wilderness nor a specifically called out trail. This same latitude exists from where the AT heads back below treeline for the vast majority of the AT all the way to the Mt Eisenhower with the exception of the summit of South Twin.

The one area for friction is the Franconia ridge trail just north of the Liberty Springs junction. The actual junction is covered by the 1/4 mile rule from Liberty Springs. There was a very large unofficial thruhiker overflow site near the junction on the east side of the AT. It most likely was in the wilderness boundary. There were several sites on the west side of the FRT outside the 1/4 mile zone of Liberty Springs and in past years the FS has posted them "no camping reforestation areas". These are noticed anywhere except for the local signage and I expect campers have been busted here.

When I look at the regulations, the vast majority of the rules are going after weekend warrior overnight crowds or on very usage trails.

[peakbagger]

Are there enough shelters/campsites to plan to reach one everyday? Or do you need to rely on the huts? What about back country or dispersed camping? Are the huts even possible if I have a dog? I read somewhere that there is one stretch of 40 miles between shelters with only huts?

No dogs in huts unless they are bonafide service animals (ME and NH have passed recent rules about faking a service dog). Camping south of Glencliff is not a major issue plenty of campsites. The whites are doable with a dog its just additional planning and possibly hiking down off the ridge in the evening, usually 1 mile and 1000 feet vertical gets you in the woods. The really only tricky spot is near the summit of Mt Washington. There is only one option that is legal and practical and that's hiking down Jewell trail until you get below treeline. This breaks up the above treeline section of the ridge in half quite nicely. In nasty weather the typical spot on Jewell is technically below treeline but it is on a fairly prominent ridge facing the typical direction of incoming thunderstorms. Not a place I would want to be but slightly better than up on the ridge.

[rafe]

Are there enough shelters/campsites to plan to reach one everyday? Or do you need to rely on the huts? What about back country or dispersed camping? Are the huts even possible if I have a dog? I read somewhere that there is one stretch of 40 miles between shelters with only huts?

There are traditional lean-tos (shelters) and tent platforms along with the huts. If planned carefully, and the weather cooperates, you could probably avoid the huts almost everywhere except maybe for the Presidential range, where it's about 12 long miles between Mizpah and Madison hut, with the Lakes Of the Clouds hut in between.

All of the shelters and campsites will be below treeline. If you're willing to hike off the AT a ways, there are more options, eg. Guyot shelter or The Perch (shelter/tent platforms) as an alternative to Madison Hut.

[nsherry61]

Sorry nsherry61, but you are reading rules that aren't there. Trust me, many a person has been confused by this pamphlet and I expect the FS doesn't mind that confusion. . .The AT South of Moosilaukee is called out quite clearly so that's one, The whites are north of Moosilaukee . . .

Oops. I got careless in reading about the AT relative to Moosilaukee. I sit corrected.

That being said, taken right off the front page of the White Mountain Nation Forest "Dispersed Camping" page . . .

When camping in the backcountry - camping and fires are prohibited:

• Within 200 feet of trails and water bodies.
• Within 1/4 mile of backcountry facilities (shelters, huts).
• In the alpine zone - where trees are 8 feet or less.

It sure as heck isn't as specific as their brochure, but it also doesn't suggest that the rules only apply to a minority of the trails in their jurisdiction. So, are the above "rules" false and the specifics in the flier you linked to comprehensive?

[IslandPete]

No dogs in huts unless they are bonafide service animals (ME and NH have passed recent rules about faking a service dog). Camping south of Glencliff is not a major issue plenty of campsites. The whites are doable with a dog its just additional planning and possibly hiking down off the ridge in the evening, usually 1 mile and 1000 feet vertical gets you in the woods. The really only tricky spot is near the summit of Mt Washington. There is only one option that is legal and practical and that's hiking down Jewell trail until you get below treeline. This breaks up the above treeline section of the ridge in half quite nicely. In nasty weather the typical spot on Jewell is technically below treeline but it is on a fairly prominent ridge facing the typical direction of incoming thunderstorms. Not a place I would want to be but slightly better than up on the ridge.

There are traditional lean-tos (shelters) and tent platforms along with the huts. If planned carefully, and the weather cooperates, you could probably avoid the huts almost everywhere except maybe for the Presidential range, where it's about 12 long miles between Mizpah and Madison hut, with the Lakes Of the Clouds hut in between.

All of the shelters and campsites will be below treeline. If you're willing to hike off the AT a ways, there are more options, eg. Guyot shelter or The Perch (shelter/tent platforms) as an alternative to Madison Hut.

Thanks guys. So it looks like it's manageable, but that the dog complicates the whole hut experience...

[Slo-go'en]

Thanks guys. So it looks like it's manageable, but that the dog complicates the whole hut experience...

A dog complicates the whole AT experience. And the Mahoosuc range which you enter when crossing into Maine is very unfriendly for dogs due to some serious cliffs you have to climb and descend. Mahoosuc notch is a serious challenge with a dog. (It's a serious challenge with just a pack!)

[peakbagger]

It would be helpful if you would give a link to where you are referring. Is it this location ? https://www.fs.usda.gov/activity/whi...74405&actid=34

Backpackers seeking a Wilderness or backcountry experience should consult one of the many trail guides available, and should be familiar with the Forest's Backcountry Camping Rules.

When camping in the backcountry - camping and fires are prohibited:
Within 200 feet of trails and water bodies.
Within 1/4 mile of backcountry facilities (shelters, huts).
In the alpine zone - where trees are 8 feet or less.
Please consult the Forest's Backcountry Camping Rules.
Be certain to view the Recreation Conditions Report for the most current trail and camping information.

Note that I added the bold and underlining

I agree with the confusion but its pretty specific to "consult the Forest's Backcountry Camping Rules" which is the 3 page document that I had referenced previously. My belief is that whomever prepared the summary is not familiar with their own rules and definitions. They don't include a definition section but where they appear to have blown it is they confused Wilderness area specific rules and mixed LNT suggestions with an amalgam of rules for different areas. Its pretty clear in the 3 page reference that the 200 foot rule is specific to wilderness areas and other specially designated areas only.

The rules also get more confusing when actual practice is taken into account. At least two of the Wilderness areas have "designated" campsites and many are within 200 feet of the trail. These are not shown on trail maps but are marked with specific signage. They lack any facilities but are an acknowledgment that in heavily used areas certain locations are going to get used and its best to concentrate the usage into one spot than the alternative of degrading large swaths of the woods.

The reality is that FS folks are pretty rare in the backcountry, the only reason they typically will write a ticket is a blatant violation, usually a bunch of folks with a bonfire and trash strewn about in an area that is closed for camping. The FS employees are not actively going to go out around dusk ticketing thruhikers camping on hardened spots without campfires who most likely will be gone by dusk.

[rafe]

Let's just say, if you haven't hiked in the White Mountains before, you may be surprised by what you find there.

Down below 2500-3000 feet above sea level, you have conventional hardwood and mixed conifer forest. You may find occasional camping opportunities there (disregarding legalities) -- that is to say, places with sufficient level ground to pitch a small tent, or trees that could support a hammock. The road crossings up there are typically around 1000-1500'' ASL.

For the next 1000 feet or so, you have low conifers, whose height and girth declines with each step upward. Above that, you have low, dense scrub (krummholz) or just bare rock, sometimes smooth, as on Franconia ridge, sometimes a moonscape of jagged rocks and boulders, as. on the Presidential range, between Washington and Madison.

There is precious little flat ground. Any flat ground you find is either down low in the hardwood forest, or on the high, bare ridges, where it's generally unsafe and always illegal. The trails are rocky, incredibly steep, and often quite narrow. You will be amazed at the density of the growth on either side of the trail; in many cases it is simply impenetrable. The 200-foot rule is another way of saying, "Don't even think about it."

The one stretch I know of that's flat -- near Ethan Pond shelter -- is where the trail often floods after a rain. It's swampy, with lots of pogue work, and even that is often underwater.

AMC huts are located in some of those rare, relatively flat spots but camping is expressly prohibited in the vicinity of the huts.

[IslandPete]

A dog complicates the whole AT experience. And the Mahoosuc range which you enter when crossing into Maine is very unfriendly for dogs due to some serious cliffs you have to climb and descend. Mahoosuc notch is a serious challenge with a dog. (It's a serious challenge with just a pack!)

I understand that completely. He complicates a lot of things we do. But he's part of the deal, so we're going to give it a go...